(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here [2010-2020]

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

LinguoFranco wrote: 11 Jun 2018 18:34 I'm trying to understand how morae work. If I'm understanding it correctly, then a basic syllable such as V or CV are 1 mora, or a light syllable, while something like VV or CVV or even CVC in some languages are 2 morae, or a heavy syllable. I'm guessing this is the basis for stress in a word? What if a word had, say, a total of 4 morae (like CVV.CVV) or something, would they both be stressed?

Also, why do something languages treat a CVC syllable with a coda sonorant as heavy, while those with an obstruent coda are light?
Just wanted to add: Mora-based stress is often something like: stress the rightmost heavy syllable. In other cases you can have something like: stress the syllable that containts the third mora from the right (Latin, IIRC). Mora are often also handy for describing tone languegs (especially, but not exclusively in Africa). If you have falling and rising tones only on heavy syllables, this can be reformulated by saying that each mora is either high or low toned, yielding the same result.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
wintiver
sinic
sinic
Posts: 214
Joined: 09 Oct 2012 03:37

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by wintiver »

I am trying to orthographize a conlang, specifically its vowel system without using digraphs. Right now I am using the IPA characters because I don't know what else to do. I was wondering if you had any suggestions.

The vowel system is:

i ɯ u
e ɤ o
ɛ ʌ ɔ
a

There is a length distinction on all vowels. There is a high versus low tone distinction in the language as well. I'll take any suggestions at all. I'm sort of stalled out here. Thank you for your time.
User avatar
Pabappa
greek
greek
Posts: 577
Joined: 18 Nov 2017 02:41

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa »

Im not sure that syllagble counting rule is common. In Japanese the syllabic nasal counts as a mora because it originated from a syllable. But so does the checked syllable, so I dont think Jap[anese is an example of counting nasals & stops differently. both are moraic. If presssed I'd guess that languages that treat them differently do so because they evolved differently. e.g. if Japanese had retained its ancient prenasalized stops, we could have a contrast today between Japanese /n.d/ and /nd/, and perhaps even /n.nd/. I think the nasal mora is pronounced as a nasal vowel in some environments, such as before /j/. Thus Japanese /n.ya/ does not resemble /nya/. likewise /ju.n.ichiro/ does not sound like /junichiro/.
Kavunupupis, šiŋuputata.
When I see you pointing at me, I know I'm in trouble. (Play)
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 »

wintiver wrote: 12 Jun 2018 01:19 I am trying to orthographize a conlang, specifically its vowel system without using digraphs. Right now I am using the IPA characters because I don't know what else to do. I was wondering if you had any suggestions.

The vowel system is:

i ɯ u
e ɤ o
ɛ ʌ ɔ
a

There is a length distinction on all vowels. There is a high versus low tone distinction in the language as well. I'll take any suggestions at all. I'm sort of stalled out here. Thank you for your time.
I would have said:

/i ɯ u/ <i ï u> OR <i eu u>
/e ɤ o/ <e ë o> OR <e eo o>
/ɛ ʌ ɔ/ <ä~e̥ ë̥ ǫ~o̥> OR <ea ao oa>
/a/ <a> OR <a>

You could also replace the central vowel digraphs <eu eo ao> with <ŭ ŏ ă>.

On the other hand, you could treat the mid-open vowels as the default and have something like:

/i ɯ u/ <i ï u> OR <i iu~ŭ u>
/e ɤ o/ <ei ëï ou> OR <ei eu~ŏ ou>
/ɛ ʌ ɔ/ <e ë o> OR <e eo~ă o>
/a/ <a> OR <a>

Similarly, you could have the mid-close vowels marked as if they were close vowels, and treating them as some sort of default, giving something like:

/i ɯ u/ <ie ïe uo> OR <í ŭ ú>
/e ɤ o/ <i ï u> OR <i ŏ u>
/ɛ ʌ ɔ/ <e ë o> OR <e ă o>
/a/ <a> OR <a>

I think generally it's up to you, though, and what sort of aesthetic you're going for, the phonotactics of the language (if vowel clusters are a thing, then if you choose to use digraphs, you might have to find a way to disambiguate, say, /e.u/ from /ɯ/ if the latter is written <eu>) as well as your own feelings regarding diacritics.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
LinguistCat
sinic
sinic
Posts: 325
Joined: 06 May 2017 07:48

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguistCat »

Pabappa wrote: 12 Jun 2018 01:42 Im not sure that syllable counting rule is common. In Japanese the syllabic nasal counts as a mora because it originated from a syllable. But so does the checked syllable, so I dont think Japanese is an example of counting nasals & stops differently. both are moraic. If pressed I'd guess that languages that treat them differently do so because they evolved differently. e.g. if Japanese had retained its ancient prenasalized stops, we could have a contrast today between Japanese /n.d/ and /nd/, and perhaps even /n.nd/. I think the nasal mora is pronounced as a nasal vowel in some environments, such as before /j/. Thus Japanese /n.ya/ does not resemble /nya/. likewise /ju.n.ichiro/ does not sound like /junichiro/.
If there is a difference between moraic N and checked syllables, it's that most checked syllables are from compounding and compound words have their own rules regarding accent. The second vowel in a series (C)VV is also moraic but they rarely take the accent in Japanese either. In fact there's a rule for that diachronically that if a series of vowels resulted from losing a consonant between them, and the second mora would have carried the accent, the accent shifts to be between the two vowels. When something carrying the pitch drop gets reduced, the accent likes to shift to the left. Or maybe the accent shift happened and causes things to reduce. Either way, there's a connection there. ETA: At least that's what I've been reading while looking into how pitch accent has changed over time.
Last edited by LinguistCat on 12 Jun 2018 09:56, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
cedh
MVP
MVP
Posts: 386
Joined: 07 Sep 2011 22:25
Location: Tübingen, Germany
Contact:

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by cedh »

wintiver wrote: 12 Jun 2018 01:19 i ɯ u
e ɤ o
ɛ ʌ ɔ
a
Low tone:
i ĭ u
e ŭ o
ĕ ă ŏ
a


High tone:
í î ú
é û ó
ê â ô
á
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 »

cedh wrote: 12 Jun 2018 09:26
wintiver wrote: 12 Jun 2018 01:19 i ɯ u
e ɤ o
ɛ ʌ ɔ
a
Low tone:
i ĭ u
e ŭ o
ĕ ă ŏ
a


High tone:
í î ú
é û ó
ê â ô
á
Oh fudge monkeys, I completely missed the part about tone [:O]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
LinguoFranco
greek
greek
Posts: 613
Joined: 20 Jul 2016 17:49
Location: U.S.

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguoFranco »

Creyeditor wrote: 11 Jun 2018 21:33
LinguoFranco wrote: 11 Jun 2018 18:34 I'm trying to understand how morae work. If I'm understanding it correctly, then a basic syllable such as V or CV are 1 mora, or a light syllable, while something like VV or CVV or even CVC in some languages are 2 morae, or a heavy syllable. I'm guessing this is the basis for stress in a word? What if a word had, say, a total of 4 morae (like CVV.CVV) or something, would they both be stressed?

Also, why do something languages treat a CVC syllable with a coda sonorant as heavy, while those with an obstruent coda are light?
Just wanted to add: Mora-based stress is often something like: stress the rightmost heavy syllable. In other cases you can have something like: stress the syllable that containts the third mora from the right (Latin, IIRC). Mora are often also handy for describing tone languegs (especially, but not exclusively in Africa). If you have falling and rising tones only on heavy syllables, this can be reformulated by saying that each mora is either high or low toned, yielding the same result.
I’m not good with tones or pitch accent, as I find it kinda hard to pronounce, honestly, which is why I wanted to go with a stress based system.
User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6352
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

Languages just do different things. I don’t think there’s any consensus why. But you’ll have fun finding the theories!

Weight-sensitive stress-assignment systems usually assign more weight to syllables that take longer to say.
A (C)VT syllable is usually shorter than a (C)VR syllable (T=sTop R=sonoRant). Some languages say all (C)VC are heavy; some say CVT are light and CVR are bimoraic.
OTOH some say all CVC are light and all CVCC are heavy. That’s not usual but I don’t think it’s very rare.

Some languages let the onset influence the syllable-weight. For such languages usually
The LESS sonorant the onset the HEAVIER the syllable—just the opposite for codas.

Usually there’s a rule that two consecutive syllables in the same word can’t both be stressed. Exceptions might be made if both are superheavy (>= 3 morae) or ultraheavy (>= 4 morae).

The rule for weight-sensitive stress is that an unstressed syllable shouldn’t be next to a lighter stressed syllable; that is, a stressed syllable shouldn’t be next to a heavier unstressed syllable.

HTH. I have to go. I can tell you more, but by the time I can sign on again I bet others will have gotten you satisfactorily started.
wintiver
sinic
sinic
Posts: 214
Joined: 09 Oct 2012 03:37

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by wintiver »

sangi39 wrote: 12 Jun 2018 14:09
Oh fudge monkeys, I completely missed the part about tone [:O]
No worries! I can always keep your suggestions in mind for another conlang.
cedh wrote: 12 Jun 2018 09:26
wintiver wrote: 12 Jun 2018 01:19 i ɯ u
e ɤ o
ɛ ʌ ɔ
a
Low tone:
i ĭ u
e ŭ o
ĕ ă ŏ
a


High tone:
í î ú
é û ó
ê â ô
á
Thank you that's a really elegant solution! I like that a lot!

Sorry for the delay in responses but you all are so great. Thank you.
wintiver
sinic
sinic
Posts: 214
Joined: 09 Oct 2012 03:37

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by wintiver »

If one had let's say a vowel system with contours and phonemic length then if some vowel, /a˦˩/ has a falling tone while short and then its long counter part /aː˦˩/ does that mean that the phonemically long version just takes a slower tonal descent?
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

Yes, that's possible. Another possibility is that it stays low longer.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
Ahzoh
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4191
Joined: 20 Oct 2013 02:57
Location: Canada

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

What consonant clusters can I derive these three clicks /ǀ ǁ ǂ/ from?

At the present, I've got:
/ǀ/ < /t̪k/
/ǁ/ < /t̪l/ or /t̪ˡk/
/ǂ/ < /t̪ʲk t̪ʲkʲ t̪kʲ/
Image Śād Warḫallun (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 3284
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 04:06

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov »

Is a base-seven numerical system unnauturalistic? If so, what can I do to it?
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
Nachtuil
greek
greek
Posts: 595
Joined: 21 Jul 2016 00:16

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nachtuil »

Shemtov wrote: 14 Jun 2018 23:47 Is a base-seven numerical system unnauturalistic? If so, what can I do to it?
It does strike me as unnatural in so much that I've never heard of one. I've heard of base 5, 8, 10, 12 and 20. Don't ask me for examples of 5 and 8 because I don't know them off hand. Maybe you could make it base 8, but make 8 derived from "7+1" or some such. You could still try to have a base 7 system. No reason it can't work.


I have a question regarding classifiers and case systems. Does anyone know any such languages?

In constructions like "five head of cattle" where head is a classifier, the "of cattle" does seem associative as if it might be genitive. For a language I have been working I had been thinking to inflect the "of cattle" noun and leave the classifier uninflected but it has now occurred to me I could do the reverse and it might make more sense. Thoughts?


Edit: It appears Bengali has both case and classifiers so I am going to investigate that.
Last edited by Nachtuil on 17 Jun 2018 17:31, edited 2 times in total.
hoeroathlo
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 21
Joined: 13 Oct 2014 15:38

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by hoeroathlo »

How would /tθ/ naturally form in a language, and would it be feasible not to have /θ/ in the same phonology?
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10373
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar »

hoeroathlo wrote: 17 Jun 2018 03:02 How would /tθ/ naturally form in a language, and would it be feasible not to have /θ/ in the same phonology?
[tʰ] > [t͡θ], for instance.

I'd think it would be alright to have only one of /t͡θ θ/ in a language's inventory, since those sounds are so rare cross-linguistically. I think there are some language varieties (including, I believe, some dialects of English) with a single phoneme that can be realized as either the affricate or fricative.
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3021
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas »

shimobaatar wrote: 17 Jun 2018 03:07
hoeroathlo wrote: 17 Jun 2018 03:02 How would /tθ/ naturally form in a language, and would it be feasible not to have /θ/ in the same phonology?
[tʰ] > [t͡θ], for instance.

I'd think it would be alright to have only one of /t͡θ θ/ in a language's inventory, since those sounds are so rare cross-linguistically. I think there are some language varieties (including, I believe, some dialects of English) with a single phoneme that can be realized as either the affricate or fricative.
The Font of All Knowledge seems to concur and provides some other examples.
User avatar
Lambuzhao
korean
korean
Posts: 5405
Joined: 13 May 2012 02:57

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao »

Shemtov wrote: 14 Jun 2018 23:47 Is a base-seven numerical system unnauturalistic? If so, what can I do to it?
Unnaturalistic?

Well, it has been put forth that the proto-lang of the Ob-Ugrian languages may have used a septimal numeral system.

Q.V.
Jadranka Gvozdanovic, edit. , Number Types and Changes Worldwide
László Honty, "The numeral system of the Uralic Languages" ( pp. 244-247)

https://books.google.com/books?id=9W8R9 ... em&f=false

So at the very least there's that, though The Font of All Knowledge proffers a Senary system for Proto-Uralic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numeral_systems

[;)]

And here's a link to a video of a septimal handsign system
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGfiFQCydWM

If it's not umpossible to count by hands using a septimal/septenary system (at least until 49), than it could be considered naturalistic.
User avatar
gach
MVP
MVP
Posts: 513
Joined: 07 Aug 2013 01:26
Location: displaced from Helsinki

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by gach »

Lambuzhao wrote: 18 Jun 2018 16:05
Shemtov wrote: 14 Jun 2018 23:47 Is a base-seven numerical system unnauturalistic? If so, what can I do to it?
Unnaturalistic?

Well, it has been put forth that the proto-lang of the Ob-Ugrian languages may have used a septimal numeral system.

Q.V.
Jadranka Gvozdanovic, edit. , Number Types and Changes Worldwide
László Honty, "The numeral system of the Uralic Languages" ( pp. 244-247)

https://books.google.com/books?id=9W8R9 ... em&f=false
I like Honti's take on these suggested wilder numeral bases in language reconstructions:
László Honti wrote:The supporters of these theories generally stated their views on the numeral systems of the various linguistic states by noting paradoxically that they had paid no regard to the method of numeral formation or to the data which could be gathered from the numeral systems of present-day languages.
Such odd numeral bases could well turn up but usually their accounts are best viewed as wishful thinking or questionable analysis. The Wikipedia article lists for example the supposed base-27 in Telefol and Oksapmin wich actually are no more than body part tally systems. I don't recall ever seeing any evidence that a body part counting system would have evolved into a full blown number system with a formalised additive or multiplicative base. The base here is simply the extent of the tally system.
ImageKištaLkal sikSeic
Locked