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PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug 2012, 14:42 
cleardarkness
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QuantumWraith wrote:
Which language has the largest consonant cluster inventory? Or what is a plausible, maximal consonant cluster inventory?


That would be !Xoon.

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PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug 2012, 15:43 
fire
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Micamo wrote:
QuantumWraith wrote:
Which language has the largest consonant cluster inventory? Or what is a plausible, maximal consonant cluster inventory?
That would be !Xoon.

ǃXóõ (or however it's supposed to be spelt) is (one of?) the languages with the biggest consonant inventory, yes.

As for consonant clusters, that depends what you mean.
Bella Coola famously has long grammatical complete sentences with many consonants and no vowels.
If you want "biggest consonant cluster in a word", I don't know, but I bet it's either one of those above or one of those mentioned below.
If you want "biggest consonant cluster in a syllable", it's probably a European language; English and German are both good candidates. One allows 4-consonant onsets and 3-consonant codas; the other allows 3-consonant onsets and 4-consonant coda* clusters. Technically, I suppose, they both allow 7-consonant clusters in a word (but a syllable boundary has to occur within such a long consonant cluster).

Edit: *I left the word "coda" out.


Nobody speaks of "consonant cluster inventories". There are inventories of consonant phonemes; and there are clusters of consonant phonemes. People talk about those, but not about inventories of clusters of phonemes.

IMO the longest plausible syllable-onset-cluster and the longest plausible syllable-coda-cluster are both 4 consonants long; and IMO the longest plausible consonant cluster in a word is 7 consonants long. But, I believe some conlangers think 5-consonant onset-clusters and 5-consonant coda-clusters are (maybe only barely?) plausible; and if a 'lang had both, it could conceivably have 10-consonant clusters inside a word.

You should know, though, that 3-or-more-consonant onset-clusters and 3-or-more-consonant coda-clusters both co-occurring in the same language is a distinctly minority phenomenon; there are few such natlangs.

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Last edited by eldin raigmore on Thu 09 Aug 2012, 15:43, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug 2012, 05:19 
mayan
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Georgian has some pretty serious onset clusters but it's distinctly lacking very many word final ones, at least in my experience with the language.


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PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2012, 20:03 
metal
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Nobody speaks of "consonant cluster inventories". There are inventories of consonant phonemes; and there are clusters of consonant phonemes. People talk about those, but not about inventories of clusters of phonemes.

Maybe they meant something like that table?

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PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2012, 20:09 
fire
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Milyamd wrote:
Quote:
Nobody speaks of "consonant cluster inventories". There are inventories of consonant phonemes; and there are clusters of consonant phonemes. People talk about those, but not about inventories of clusters of phonemes.

Maybe they meant something like that table?

I didn't get that impression, but, maybe so. The original poster can answer that better than anyone else (especially me). But even if it wasn't what s/he was originally asking for, it's probably interesting in its own right anyway.

That table, of course, is incomplete.
It tells you which consonant-clusters can begin words in Modern Greek. It doesn't tell you which clusters can end words, nor which clusters can occur inside of words.
It also doesn't tell you which clusters can be onsets and which can be codas and which clusters, though they can occur inside of a word, have to have a syllable boundary interrupting them somewhere.
And it says nothing about which clusters can and which can't begin a morpheme or end a morpheme or occur inside a morpheme.

Usually that's all settled at the two-consonant level. Usually all or most of what's to be said about three-consonant-and-longer clusters is just what is the maximal-length cluster that can occur in various environments; if both of the subclusters you get by deleting one consonant from the beginning or end of the proposed cluster, actually do occur in the language in that environment, then, unless it's too long, the proposed cluster can occur there too.

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PostPosted: Sun 05 Aug 2012, 14:19 
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How common is it to use the genitive instead of an class of transitive verb. AKA He walks becomes something like he does the walk of his.

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PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug 2012, 04:59 
hieroglyphic
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Micamo wrote:
That would be !Xoon.


I was under the impression that !Xoon was the natlang with the largest consonant inventory, but does that apply to it's consonant clusters as well? Sorry if that's what you meant.

eldin raigmore wrote:
ǃXóõ (or however it's supposed to be spelt) is (one of?) the languages with the biggest consonant inventory, yes.

As for consonant clusters, that depends what you mean.
Bella Coola famously has long grammatical complete sentences with many consonants and no vowels.
If you want "biggest consonant cluster in a word", I don't know, but I bet it's either one of those above or one of those mentioned below.
If you want "biggest consonant cluster in a syllable", it's probably a European language; English and German are both good candidates. One allows 4-consonant onsets and 3-consonant codas; the other allows 3-consonant onsets and 4-consonant clusters. Technically, I suppose, they both allow 7-consonant clusters in a word (but a syllable boundary has to occur within such a long consonant cluster).

Nobody speaks of "consonant cluster inventories". There are inventories of consonant phonemes; and there are clusters of consonant phonemes. People talk about those, but not about inventories of clusters of phonemes.

IMO the longest plausible syllable-onset-cluster and the longest plausible syllable-coda-cluster are both 4 consonants long; and IMO the longest plausible consonant cluster in a word is 7 consonants long. But, I believe some conlangers think 5-consonant onset-clusters and 5-consonant coda-clusters are (maybe only barely?) plausible; and if a 'lang had both, it could conceivably have 10-consonant clusters inside a word.

You should know, though, that 3-or-more-consonant onset-clusters and 3-or-more-consonant coda-clusters both co-occurring in the same language is a distinctly minority phenomenon; there are few such natlangs.


I apologize if I wasn't clear with my question. I wasn't referring to the relative length of clusters, but more to what restrictions a language would put on clusters or if it would allow any two consonants in it's inventory to be joined into a cluster at any position in a word.

Milyamd
wrote:
Maybe they meant something like that table?


Yes! That's closer to what I was referring to.

Theta wrote:
Georgian has some pretty serious onset clusters but it's distinctly lacking very many word final ones, at least in my experience with the language.


That's kind of what I'm going for. Like a reversed linguistic mullet - party in the front and business in the back.. Perhaps that's a bad analogy.

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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug 2012, 20:56 
metal
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Which one is better?
/x/ ‹x› and /ʃ/ ‹c›
or
/x/ ‹c› and /ʃ/ ‹x›

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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug 2012, 21:06 
MVP
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Milyamd wrote:
Which one is better?
/x/ ‹x› and /ʃ/ ‹c› [tick]
or
/x/ ‹c› and /ʃ/ ‹x

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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug 2012, 21:18 
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I agree.


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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug 2012, 21:43 
metal
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Or maybe some other options (e.g. with ‹sh›)?

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PostPosted: Sat 11 Aug 2012, 16:09 
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<sh> is boring.

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PostPosted: Sat 11 Aug 2012, 17:54 
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I am redoing Ngith, and am currently deciding the phonology.

The language is planned to have a rich ejective system, and I've made [glottal stop+stop/fricative] a realization of ejectives when whispering. So /ts'/ is [ʔts] when whispered. However, what's preventing someone from postulating that the actual phonemic unit is /ʔts/ and not /ts'/?

Basically, what can I do ensure that these consonants are considered phonemically ejectives and not [glottal stop+stop/fricative] sequences?

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PostPosted: Sat 11 Aug 2012, 17:56 
mayan
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Chagen wrote:
I am redoing Ngith, and am currently deciding the phonology.

The language is planned to have a rich ejective system, and I've made [glottal stop+stop/fricative] a realization of ejectives when whispering. So /ts'/ is [ʔts] when whispered. However, what's preventing someone from postulating that the actual phonemic unit is /ʔts/ and not /ts'/?

Basically, what can I do ensure that these consonants are considered phonemically ejectives and not [glottal stop+stop/fricative] sequences?

Have [ʔts] and [ts'] constrast in normal speech?

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PostPosted: Sat 11 Aug 2012, 18:20 
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The language doesn't even have a phonemic glottal stop in the first place.

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PostPosted: Sat 11 Aug 2012, 18:37 
mayan
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Chagen wrote:
The language doesn't even have a phonemic glottal stop in the first place.

Well then, I would say that Ngith lacks Phonemic ejectives.

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PostPosted: Sat 11 Aug 2012, 18:40 
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Huh? What's preventing a lang from having ejectives but no glottal stop?

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PostPosted: Sat 11 Aug 2012, 18:47 
mayan
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Chagen wrote:
Huh? What's preventing a lang from having ejectives but no glottal stop?

I would say that Ngith does have a glottal stop, only that it just occurs in consonant clusters and never surfaces phonetically.
(Unless there's something else that would make it clear that the ejectives are definitely a phoneme.)

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PostPosted: Sat 11 Aug 2012, 18:52 
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There's minimal pairs that help prove that the ejectives are phonemic, however.

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PostPosted: Sat 11 Aug 2012, 19:02 
mayan
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Chagen wrote:
There's minimal pairs that help prove that the ejectives are phonemic, however.

That may simply prove that sequences of /ʔts/ and /ts/ contrast.

Does Ngith have any infixes?

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