/ʃːːːːːːː/DesEsseintes wrote:
Phonemic /ʃ/ sh has somehow made its way back into Híí, but don't tell anyone...
What did you accomplish today? [2011–2019]
- Frislander
- mayan
- Posts: 2088
- Joined: 14 May 2016 18:47
- Location: The North
Re: What did you accomplish today?
More like “this week”, but…
https://github.com/Adarain/Speedlanging ... llenge.pdf
Apparently the footnotes (which contain links elaborating) don’t show up on github. They do show up when downloaded though, just checked.
https://github.com/Adarain/Speedlanging ... llenge.pdf
Apparently the footnotes (which contain links elaborating) don’t show up on github. They do show up when downloaded though, just checked.
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
-
- sinic
- Posts: 413
- Joined: 27 Jan 2013 02:12
- Contact:
Re: What did you accomplish today?
Shonkasika has regained 'reciprocal' as an inflected voice category for verbs. Verbs now have the following voice options:
Level 1: non-causative vs causative
Level 2: active, middle/reflexive, reciprocal, passive
I also added two periphrastic aspect formations. One is a habitual/frequentative formed with the verb lemanu "to stay, to remain" and the present active adverbial participle.
Laidonku lemat "I usually/habitually eat / I eat often"
The other is a continuative distinct from the progressive. It is formed with the present active adverbial participle and the verb nehunu "to hold" or kivinu "to flow".
Laidonku nehut/kivit "I am still eating / I keep on eating"
See the rest of the periphrastic constructions here.
Level 1: non-causative vs causative
Level 2: active, middle/reflexive, reciprocal, passive
I also added two periphrastic aspect formations. One is a habitual/frequentative formed with the verb lemanu "to stay, to remain" and the present active adverbial participle.
Laidonku lemat "I usually/habitually eat / I eat often"
The other is a continuative distinct from the progressive. It is formed with the present active adverbial participle and the verb nehunu "to hold" or kivinu "to flow".
Laidonku nehut/kivit "I am still eating / I keep on eating"
See the rest of the periphrastic constructions here.
Visit my website for my blogs and information on my conlangs: http://grwilliams.net/ It's a work in progress!
- DesEsseintes
- mongolian
- Posts: 4331
- Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16
Re: What did you accomplish today?
Thanks, alynnidalar. That's very nice of you to say.alynnidalar wrote:I really need to do some stuff with tone, one of these days.
It looks quite neat! I absolutely love the aesthetic of everything Híí -related.
You aren't supposed to.qwed117 wrote:What, I can't hear you.DesEsseintes wrote: Phonemic /ʃ/ sh has somehow made its way back into Híí, but don't tell anyone...
- Inkcube-Revolver
- cuneiform
- Posts: 126
- Joined: 05 Nov 2015 23:20
- Location: Miami, FL
Re: What did you accomplish today?
I've been on and off with my conlangs, mostly out of frustration and putting focus in other places where sorely needed, but I think I've FINALLY, FINALLY found a semblance of a method to the madness with my biggest conlangerific endeavor: Lā́b Del. The thing that's had me diving off the deep end multiple times since I started working on this back in September was meticulously crafting a sound phonology, something I've never given too much focus to in the past and have just changed and adapted as I've gone along. The soundness I strived for was to have it function as a full-fledged and working conlang to act as a parentlang while hailing from a protolang itself. It's been tedious, complicated, and very frustrating, but I think now that I've been focusing less and less on its phonology, I am statting to like the conlang again.
The way I started work on it was that it would be isolating from the start, and soon expanded this concept by deriving its vocab and grammar from a previous ancestor that had weakly inflectional properties on verbs and nouns, in which the morphology for this lang (now called Proto-Delese) I feel should be left ambiguous in its origins as to not go down that rabbit hole any further (maybe for another conlang family, but not this one).
Then it got trickier when I took another look at PIE, saw it's ablaut system, and though "Y'know, that's really fucking cool how the morphology gives sooo much variation, I think I should do something similar!"
With how PIE has an e-grade, a lengthened e-grade, an o-grade, a lengthened o-grade, and a zero-grade for its morphology and how it runs the magic in the language, I tossed in a grade for a, i, and u, plus lengthened grades, plus a zero grade, and didn't make it concrete on how this would pan out. i also threw in animacy without knowing how it worked until MUCH later, changed some of the subject and topic(?) markers into animacy markers, in which that paradigm is a mess of its own, and eventually kind of scrapped ablaut. Kind of because it's there in some forms, but not in everything, which get muddied out by phonological changes later on anyways.
If any of you have seen my, what, 3 posts on Lab Del, you would know that the phonology for Proto-Delese has. been. a. mess.
I have, of course, a tenuis (plain stops) series, along with a separate series for ejectives, pharyngealized consonants, and aspirates, in which all of those distinctions could be made with all stops and to varying degrees with liquids, nasals, and fricatives. Then I made a revision in which the system went from:
THAT mess to:
this one.
The messy thing about the first phonology is that it was cruelly inconsistent, and allowed things like this to happen:
and this:
but also this to somehow happen at the same time:
and... this:
All of which are simply gross to look at. They feel so... wrong. Maybe not the "two" evolution, but I don't dig it being the number two. (I can't win).
And under ablaut, this happened, too:
although these don't look tooo bad, considered that this was one of the first instances I toyed with ablaut back then:
Another set of features that derives from the train of thought I had with the broken ablaut system ended up becoming the changes that would occur with stress and how dissimilation, assimilation, and allophony all played out.
*/k’íp opi/ "to break away, break apart" > */gíɸoɸi/ > */ˈgʲɨwəwi/ > */dzáwwi/ > ˈdzoːj "to defeat"
*/k’íp opi/ > */ˈgiɸoɸi/ > */ˈgʲəjβəβi/ > /ˈdʑebi/, /ˈdzibi/, /ˈzibe/ "undo, unmake, ruin"
The biggest things that changed the way the same word came out different was reanalysis of the vowels, which lead to different ways the fricatives were handled. The first example is the so-to-speak standard Lab Del form of the term, whereas in the second example it shows dialectal variants of the same word deriving from the same source as example 1.
*/ˈɨnək’u/ > */ˈɨ̃jə̃gu/ > /ˈãːgo/ > /ˈaːŋo/ "shine, bright, brilliant; to shine, to gleam"
(fun with nasality and loss of it)
Here's the REALLY fun stuff:
*/ˈrowe/ "to fit, arrange, order" > /luː/ "to do, make, act"
*/ˈs-rowe/ > */ˈsrəwwə/ > /ˈʂuːa/, /ˈʂuːo/ "act, deed"
*/ˈn-rowe/ > */ˈɳəwwə/ > (Lab Del) /ˈɖoː/, (Umo Del) /ˈɳuː/ "construction, composition, craft, creation, plan, draft; work, title (name/epithet); compulsion, inclination; wanton (adj)"
*/ˈq’om-rowe/ > */ˈɢəww̃ləwwə/ > /ˈguːluː/, /ˈguːjuːa/ or /guːluːa/ "acting as one, together; team, group; to prepare, ready"
In these examples, it shows that the reanalysis of stressed vowels usually stems from them breaking into diphthongs and interacting quite promiscuously in their environments. */rowe/ in Proto-Delese is a normal verb and an auxiliary verb, and modifies the verb or noun that comes before it depending on which hat it has on.
*/n-/ is an animate noun marker, */s-/ is for inanimacy, and abstract concepts tend to flip-flop between these two distinctions. Animacy is pretty much lost in Lab Del, but derivations like these can be found if reworked carefully. Also in this example, the nature of the Pr.-Delese tenuis nasals is shown with the [m] changing the way vowels and adjacent sounds get reanalyzed.
*/ˈrjowe/ "direct, order" > */ˈljəwwə/ > /ˈnuː/, /ˈnuːja/, /ˈnuːo/, /ˈnuːa/, /ˈʑuː(ə)/ "initiate, direct, conduct"
A special infix <j> is put here that augments the meaning of the verb or has it change its meaning to a related concept, this tends to vary from verb to verb, may do something with nouns, not sure.
*/ˈrorowe/ "acted, performed" > */ˈləwjəwwə/ > /ˈluːjuː/, /ˈlyːoː/, /ˈluː.ɛ.uː/ "heated, emotional, excitable, spirited; generous, giving"
Partial reduplication of verb occurs to perform various duties, from forming tenses and aspects to forming adjectives, marking plurals and specializing for nouns, which have differing effects in the current stages of the language.
One of the more interesting examples of drastic changes that happen with these derivational factors coming into play is with these two terms:
*/ˈs-njam/ > */ˈtsjɨɯw̃/ > /ˈ(t)ɕuː/ "fish" (one that hasn't been caught, wild)
*/ˈn̩-njam/ > */ˈə̃j̃ə̃/, */ˈə̃ɲə̃(w)/ > /ˈaːjaː/, /ˈeːaː/, /ˈaːɲaː/, /ˈaːloː/ "fish" (one that's been caught, gutted, cooked, etc.)
Let me know what you think and whether you want more info on Lab Del!
The way I started work on it was that it would be isolating from the start, and soon expanded this concept by deriving its vocab and grammar from a previous ancestor that had weakly inflectional properties on verbs and nouns, in which the morphology for this lang (now called Proto-Delese) I feel should be left ambiguous in its origins as to not go down that rabbit hole any further (maybe for another conlang family, but not this one).
Then it got trickier when I took another look at PIE, saw it's ablaut system, and though "Y'know, that's really fucking cool how the morphology gives sooo much variation, I think I should do something similar!"
With how PIE has an e-grade, a lengthened e-grade, an o-grade, a lengthened o-grade, and a zero-grade for its morphology and how it runs the magic in the language, I tossed in a grade for a, i, and u, plus lengthened grades, plus a zero grade, and didn't make it concrete on how this would pan out. i also threw in animacy without knowing how it worked until MUCH later, changed some of the subject and topic(?) markers into animacy markers, in which that paradigm is a mess of its own, and eventually kind of scrapped ablaut. Kind of because it's there in some forms, but not in everything, which get muddied out by phonological changes later on anyways.
If any of you have seen my, what, 3 posts on Lab Del, you would know that the phonology for Proto-Delese has. been. a. mess.
I have, of course, a tenuis (plain stops) series, along with a separate series for ejectives, pharyngealized consonants, and aspirates, in which all of those distinctions could be made with all stops and to varying degrees with liquids, nasals, and fricatives. Then I made a revision in which the system went from:
Spoiler:
THAT mess to:
Spoiler:
The messy thing about the first phonology is that it was cruelly inconsistent, and allowed things like this to happen:
Code: Select all
*kalium "water" > *kalʲum > *kəɮom > *kɬóm > ɬóm "rain, puddle, liquid"
Code: Select all
*qoéwui "blood" > *qœ́βuj > ʔœ́ʋy "sap, honey"
Code: Select all
*qoéwui > *qóewuj > *qój-ūi > qṓji "blood, flesh; body"
Code: Select all
*qondor "bear" > *ʔondor > n̥dr̥, gn̥dr̥ "bear; beast; ferocious, dangerous, wild"
*ɸinka > *hinkə > ʰńk(ə) "ankle, knee"
*dewria? *dauria? > *durʲa > ɖʐá "star (poetic); flower, petal"
*hesīkai > *heʃīkei > *heʃī́kī > *ʲʒī́kī > ʒī́kī ? "quietness, solitude, peace, tranquility"
ɛlikɛ̄́ɛs (borr.) > lʲíkɛ̄ʃ, jíkɛ̄ʃ "age, time, era"
*āsraokV ? "bad, hurt" > *asrauk > *əʂúk > ʂúk "evil"
*rejkarūk ? > *rʲekʲáruk > *ʐeʃǽryk > *ʂéɽyk > ʂéʐyk "danger, peril"
*anəpor ?? > *anpor > *ampoɚ > ampṓ(ə) "bone; skeleton?"
*úhʷɛ "water" > *úʍɛ > ū́ɛ "water; ocean"
*uhʷɛ́ "wet" > *uɸɛ́ > hɛ̄́ "wet"
*atowo > *adowo > *adowo > *aðowo > *aβowo, *əβuwo > *əbuwo > *(ə)būo > būa, bōa "2"
And under ablaut, this happened, too:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
*/k’íp opi/ "to break away, break apart" > */gíɸoɸi/ > */ˈgʲɨwəwi/ > */dzáwwi/ > ˈdzoːj "to defeat"
*/k’íp opi/ > */ˈgiɸoɸi/ > */ˈgʲəjβəβi/ > /ˈdʑebi/, /ˈdzibi/, /ˈzibe/ "undo, unmake, ruin"
The biggest things that changed the way the same word came out different was reanalysis of the vowels, which lead to different ways the fricatives were handled. The first example is the so-to-speak standard Lab Del form of the term, whereas in the second example it shows dialectal variants of the same word deriving from the same source as example 1.
*/ˈɨnək’u/ > */ˈɨ̃jə̃gu/ > /ˈãːgo/ > /ˈaːŋo/ "shine, bright, brilliant; to shine, to gleam"
(fun with nasality and loss of it)
Here's the REALLY fun stuff:
*/ˈrowe/ "to fit, arrange, order" > /luː/ "to do, make, act"
*/ˈs-rowe/ > */ˈsrəwwə/ > /ˈʂuːa/, /ˈʂuːo/ "act, deed"
*/ˈn-rowe/ > */ˈɳəwwə/ > (Lab Del) /ˈɖoː/, (Umo Del) /ˈɳuː/ "construction, composition, craft, creation, plan, draft; work, title (name/epithet); compulsion, inclination; wanton (adj)"
*/ˈq’om-rowe/ > */ˈɢəww̃ləwwə/ > /ˈguːluː/, /ˈguːjuːa/ or /guːluːa/ "acting as one, together; team, group; to prepare, ready"
In these examples, it shows that the reanalysis of stressed vowels usually stems from them breaking into diphthongs and interacting quite promiscuously in their environments. */rowe/ in Proto-Delese is a normal verb and an auxiliary verb, and modifies the verb or noun that comes before it depending on which hat it has on.
*/n-/ is an animate noun marker, */s-/ is for inanimacy, and abstract concepts tend to flip-flop between these two distinctions. Animacy is pretty much lost in Lab Del, but derivations like these can be found if reworked carefully. Also in this example, the nature of the Pr.-Delese tenuis nasals is shown with the [m] changing the way vowels and adjacent sounds get reanalyzed.
*/ˈrjowe/ "direct, order" > */ˈljəwwə/ > /ˈnuː/, /ˈnuːja/, /ˈnuːo/, /ˈnuːa/, /ˈʑuː(ə)/ "initiate, direct, conduct"
A special infix <j> is put here that augments the meaning of the verb or has it change its meaning to a related concept, this tends to vary from verb to verb, may do something with nouns, not sure.
*/ˈrorowe/ "acted, performed" > */ˈləwjəwwə/ > /ˈluːjuː/, /ˈlyːoː/, /ˈluː.ɛ.uː/ "heated, emotional, excitable, spirited; generous, giving"
Partial reduplication of verb occurs to perform various duties, from forming tenses and aspects to forming adjectives, marking plurals and specializing for nouns, which have differing effects in the current stages of the language.
One of the more interesting examples of drastic changes that happen with these derivational factors coming into play is with these two terms:
*/ˈs-njam/ > */ˈtsjɨɯw̃/ > /ˈ(t)ɕuː/ "fish" (one that hasn't been caught, wild)
*/ˈn̩-njam/ > */ˈə̃j̃ə̃/, */ˈə̃ɲə̃(w)/ > /ˈaːjaː/, /ˈeːaː/, /ˈaːɲaː/, /ˈaːloː/ "fish" (one that's been caught, gutted, cooked, etc.)
Let me know what you think and whether you want more info on Lab Del!
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
Re: What did you accomplish today?
Generated 4 sentences in Onschen that display various parts of the grammar:
Липенижǂач іӣпаіо ріоворӯ хо тизизач ишцим.
[lʲipʲen̪ʲiʒǂat͡ʃ jẽ:pajo rʲoworõ: xo t̪ʲiʒizat͡ʃ iʃt͡ʃim]
3.ERG-FUT.PL-sell-3.ABS PL-rope-INAN.ABS 1.PL.DAT that 1.ERG-FUT.PL-hang-3.ABS 3.INAN.PL.INSTR
They will sell us the ropes that we will hang them with.
Тупатач иніомхо ʘу уіажӣпи.
[t̪upat̪at͡ʃ in̪ʲomxo ʘu ujaʒẽ:pʲi]
1.ERG-set-3.ABS pot.INAN.ABS.SG on table.INAN.PER.SG
I put the pots on the table.
Лурузліач оіǂоǃохот чодіову хамӯ.
[luruzlʲat͡ʃ oi̯ǂoǃoxot̪ t͡ʃod̪ʲowu xamõ:]
3.ERG-lie-3.ABS still quiet-ADJ air-INAN.ERG.SG
The quiet air lies still.
Лӯч екре ǃохастіурпакушч.
[lõ:t͡ʃ ekrʲe ǃoxast̪ʲurpakuʃt͡ʃ]
3.ERG-COP-3.ABS that-DIST.INAN.ERG. move.go-ADJ-ABS
That is actionable.
Липенижǂач іӣпаіо ріоворӯ хо тизизач ишцим.
[lʲipʲen̪ʲiʒǂat͡ʃ jẽ:pajo rʲoworõ: xo t̪ʲiʒizat͡ʃ iʃt͡ʃim]
3.ERG-FUT.PL-sell-3.ABS PL-rope-INAN.ABS 1.PL.DAT that 1.ERG-FUT.PL-hang-3.ABS 3.INAN.PL.INSTR
They will sell us the ropes that we will hang them with.
Тупатач иніомхо ʘу уіажӣпи.
[t̪upat̪at͡ʃ in̪ʲomxo ʘu ujaʒẽ:pʲi]
1.ERG-set-3.ABS pot.INAN.ABS.SG on table.INAN.PER.SG
I put the pots on the table.
Лурузліач оіǂоǃохот чодіову хамӯ.
[luruzlʲat͡ʃ oi̯ǂoǃoxot̪ t͡ʃod̪ʲowu xamõ:]
3.ERG-lie-3.ABS still quiet-ADJ air-INAN.ERG.SG
The quiet air lies still.
Лӯч екре ǃохастіурпакушч.
[lõ:t͡ʃ ekrʲe ǃoxast̪ʲurpakuʃt͡ʃ]
3.ERG-COP-3.ABS that-DIST.INAN.ERG. move.go-ADJ-ABS
That is actionable.
Last edited by Ahzoh on 08 May 2017 18:05, edited 1 time in total.
- Inkcube-Revolver
- cuneiform
- Posts: 126
- Joined: 05 Nov 2015 23:20
- Location: Miami, FL
Re: What did you accomplish today?
I like these a lot, especially now that I understand ergativity to an extent. I like the 1st and 3rd examples best. By "actionable," you mean "doable," right?Generated 4 sentences in Onschen that display various parts of the grammar:
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
Re: What did you accomplish today?
Yes, doable.Inkcube-Revolver wrote:I like these a lot, especially now that I understand ergativity to an extent. I like the 1st and 3rd examples best. By "actionable," you mean "doable," right?Generated 4 sentences in Onschen that display various parts of the grammar:
- LinguoFranco
- greek
- Posts: 613
- Joined: 20 Jul 2016 17:49
- Location: U.S.
Re: What did you accomplish today?
Well, I finally settled on a vowel system, which is based on Igbo, because that language has exactly what I was looking for, though I was torn between ATR harmony or going with four vowels /a e i o/ like Nahuatl.
Re: What did you accomplish today?
I must rework the articulation between temporal and aspectal adpositions ... since the deletion of verbs ...
Re: What did you accomplish today?
An interesting thing about Onschen is that is has adjectival affixes, including for basic colours, temperature, and age.
сӣгута таі магхвалӯ.
[ʃẽ:gut̪a t̪ai̯ mawalõ:]
NFUT.PL-live-1.ABS. grey-sky-ERG.INAN
We live under the grey sky.
вналіазазбач хошіазве.
[vn̪alʲazazbat͡ʃ xoʃ:azvʲe]
2.ERG-NFUT.SG-possess-NEG-3.ABS blue-PL-eye-ERG.INAN
You don't have blue eyes.
тиіуліач зитуфкекамџо.
[t̪ʲijulʲat͡ʃ ʒit̪ufkʲekamd͡ʒo]
1.ERG-PL-see-3.ABS steel-white-hot-ERG.INAN
We see the white-hot steel.
сӣгута таі магхвалӯ.
[ʃẽ:gut̪a t̪ai̯ mawalõ:]
NFUT.PL-live-1.ABS. grey-sky-ERG.INAN
We live under the grey sky.
вналіазазбач хошіазве.
[vn̪alʲazazbat͡ʃ xoʃ:azvʲe]
2.ERG-NFUT.SG-possess-NEG-3.ABS blue-PL-eye-ERG.INAN
You don't have blue eyes.
тиіуліач зитуфкекамџо.
[t̪ʲijulʲat͡ʃ ʒit̪ufkʲekamd͡ʒo]
1.ERG-PL-see-3.ABS steel-white-hot-ERG.INAN
We see the white-hot steel.
Re: What did you accomplish today?
I worked on Pazmat today.
I ended up somehow ballooning the verbal classes from 7 to 25.
...no wait, I forgot the syllabics. That means we get 30+ with ease.
This is gonna need some simplification.
I ended up somehow ballooning the verbal classes from 7 to 25.
...no wait, I forgot the syllabics. That means we get 30+ with ease.
This is gonna need some simplification.
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S
Re: What did you accomplish today?
Linguistic supernova blowing up in 3, 2, 1...Chagen wrote:I ended up somehow ballooning the verbal classes from 7 to 25.
...no wait, I forgot the syllabics. That means we get 30+ with ease.
Languages of Rodentèrra: Buonavallese, Saselvan Argemontese; Wīlandisċ Taulkeisch; More on the road.
Conlang embryo of TELES: Proto-Avesto-Umbric ~> Proto-Umbric
New blog: http://argentiusbonavalensis.tumblr.com
Conlang embryo of TELES: Proto-Avesto-Umbric ~> Proto-Umbric
New blog: http://argentiusbonavalensis.tumblr.com
Re: What did you accomplish today?
I thought I had finally figured out Mto's moon system, and had even started creating animations and running simulations out to a million years to make sure it was stable on a reasonable timeframe for civilization, and getting everything together—and now I'm second-guessing all of my numbers and things.
To make it worse, I'm starting to think the Hot Jupiter idea probably won't work, so now I have massive decision paralysis in terms of Mto's solar system
Making decisions is haaaaaaaaard
To make it worse, I'm starting to think the Hot Jupiter idea probably won't work, so now I have massive decision paralysis in terms of Mto's solar system
Making decisions is haaaaaaaaard
Re: What did you accomplish today?
Major Tom saw it in 4, 3, 2, 1... Long live Major TomEgerius wrote:Linguistic supernova blowing up in 3, 2, 1...Chagen wrote:I ended up somehow ballooning the verbal classes from 7 to 25.
...no wait, I forgot the syllabics. That means we get 30+ with ease.
☯ 道可道,非常道
☯ 名可名,非常名
☯ 名可名,非常名
- gestaltist
- mayan
- Posts: 1617
- Joined: 11 Feb 2015 11:23
Re: What did you accomplish today?
Are you reworking Polish or something?Chagen wrote: I ended up somehow ballooning the verbal classes from 7 to 25.
...no wait, I forgot the syllabics. That means we get 30+ with ease.
This is gonna need some simplification.
Re: What did you accomplish today?
Chagen wrote: I ended up somehow ballooning the verbal classes from 7 to 25.
...no wait, I forgot the syllabics. That means we get 30+ with ease.
This is gonna need some simplification.
So . . . what's the issue with 30 verbal classes? Surely the more the merrier?