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PostPosted: Fri 14 Sep 2012, 18:29 
hieroglyphic
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Stammalor wrote:
Hi.
So this shouldn't be to hard for you guys (and gals of course): In english and other germanic languages we use verb particles (atleast I call them that) in phrasal verbs, not regular particles like the chinese le but like the word up in i ate up all the food, or down in Calm him down. It is a two-part verb where the object is being surrounded (most often) by the two parts of the verb, the main verb and its particle, "I threw up" (subject only) but I threw the food up (subject and object) I have heard that many other languages don't do this very much or at all so, how do other languages deal with not using verb particles?


Most of these "particles" (I'd really just call these adverbs here) are just used to add some kind of aspectual or semantic difference.
I would assume that many of these meanings would just be covered lexically in other languages.

Even English does this for some of your examples.
"I threw the food up." --> "I vomited the food." (I'll admit that vomit used transitively sounds a bit weird to me, but it's apparently acceptable.)

In "Calm him down" the "down" is really just reinforcing the idea that to calm is to bring someone to a lower energy state (I've been thinking about electrons lately, sorry). I think this is really equivalent to "Calm him".


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PostPosted: Fri 14 Sep 2012, 18:52 
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Alomar wrote:
Milyamd wrote:
Where are German /ɛ/ and /ə/ contrasting?


/ɛ/ is short e and /ə/ is final.

Ich setze. /ɪç zɛtsə/

Are there minimal pairs or is the phonemic classification arbitrary?
(In other words, why couldn't we count them as allophones?)

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PostPosted: Fri 14 Sep 2012, 23:50 
fire
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Xonen wrote:
Wikipedia, for starters (that page actually doesn't offer an example for Sanskrit,

I also don't see on that page anywhere it says the syllabic consonants were stressed in Sanskrit.

Xonen wrote:
but see e.g. vṛddhi).

How can you tell what are the syllables and which one is stressed?

Xonen wrote:
As for the question itself, it's not an "extraordinary claim" by any means. Just a couple of minutes of googling reveals several links to books and stuff on phonetics and phonology (just to link to a few of those) that indicate that [r\`=] is quite common in many varieties of English (and can also occur in stressed syllables). Of course, it's perhaps more commonly transcribed with the special symbol /ɚ/ or /ɝ/, but that's just a matter of how you choose to analyze it. Phonetically, it's the same thing.

Not at all. In my terminology /ɚ/ and /ɝ/ are vowels, not consonants. That's why they can be stressed.
So we have an irreconcilable disagreement based on speaking different terminology.

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PostPosted: Sat 15 Sep 2012, 00:18 
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eldin raigmore wrote:
Xonen wrote:
but see e.g. vṛddhi).

How can you tell what are the syllables and which one is stressed?


Wikipedia wrote:
Vṛddhi (Sanskrit: वृद्धि, IPA: [ˈʋr̩d̪d̪ʰi]) is a Sanskrit word meaning "growth".


Stress, according to this article, falls on the syllabic /r/.

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PostPosted: Sat 15 Sep 2012, 05:40 
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This might be a stupid question, but I can't seem to find the answer on the internet. It rewords it to something else. I have been reading a lot of Linguistics books and decided to talk about it with few people yesterday (one was a friends, the others strangers) when someone said something about "collective pronouns". At first I asked if he meant "collective nouns" because I never heard of collective pronouns before. But he and his friend said they existed. So I have spent a while reading what I have and reading on the internet, but it has failed. All I can find is collective nouns, even if I type collective pronouns.

Is there such a thing?

Thank you for reading!

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PostPosted: Sat 15 Sep 2012, 11:37 
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Kaylee wrote:
This might be a stupid question, but I can't seem to find the answer on the internet. It rewords it to something else. I have been reading a lot of Linguistics books and decided to talk about it with few people yesterday (one was a friends, the others strangers) when someone said something about "collective pronouns". At first I asked if he meant "collective nouns" because I never heard of collective pronouns before. But he and his friend said they existed. So I have spent a while reading what I have and reading on the internet, but it has failed. All I can find is collective nouns, even if I type collective pronouns.

Is there such a thing?

Thank you for reading!


A quick search turned out this. I'm not sure how much it helps since it only deals with English, but it seems that collective pronouns are pronouns referring back to collective nouns. How that's handled in other languages I don't know.

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PostPosted: Sun 16 Sep 2012, 02:24 
hieroglyphic
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Milyamd wrote:
Alomar wrote:
Milyamd wrote:
Where are German /ɛ/ and /ə/ contrasting?


/ɛ/ is short e and /ə/ is final.

Ich setze. /ɪç zɛtsə/

Are there minimal pairs or is the phonemic classification arbitrary?
(In other words, why couldn't we count them as allophones?)


To my knowledge (native English, ten years formal German), they aren't minimal pairs ever. It probably is best to think of them as allophones of /e:/ really.


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PostPosted: Sun 16 Sep 2012, 03:08 
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sangi39 wrote:
Kaylee wrote:
This might be a stupid question, but I can't seem to find the answer on the internet. It rewords it to something else. I have been reading a lot of Linguistics books and decided to talk about it with few people yesterday (one was a friends, the others strangers) when someone said something about "collective pronouns". At first I asked if he meant "collective nouns" because I never heard of collective pronouns before. But he and his friend said they existed. So I have spent a while reading what I have and reading on the internet, but it has failed. All I can find is collective nouns, even if I type collective pronouns.

Is there such a thing?

Thank you for reading!


A quick search turned out this. I'm not sure how much it helps since it only deals with English, but it seems that collective pronouns are pronouns referring back to collective nouns. How that's handled in other languages I don't know.


Thank you for the reply, Sangi39! [:)]

Yes, I found that site as well, but it was after I read some other sites saying 'collective pronouns' don't exist, but are just pronouns that refer to the collective noun.

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PostPosted: Sun 16 Sep 2012, 11:36 
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Kaylee wrote:
sangi39 wrote:
Kaylee wrote:
This might be a stupid question, but I can't seem to find the answer on the internet. It rewords it to something else. I have been reading a lot of Linguistics books and decided to talk about it with few people yesterday (one was a friends, the others strangers) when someone said something about "collective pronouns". At first I asked if he meant "collective nouns" because I never heard of collective pronouns before. But he and his friend said they existed. So I have spent a while reading what I have and reading on the internet, but it has failed. All I can find is collective nouns, even if I type collective pronouns.

Is there such a thing?

Thank you for reading!


A quick search turned out this. I'm not sure how much it helps since it only deals with English, but it seems that collective pronouns are pronouns referring back to collective nouns. How that's handled in other languages I don't know.


Thank you for the reply, Sangi39! [:)]

Yes, I found that site as well, but it was after I read some other sites saying 'collective pronouns' don't exist, but are just pronouns that refer to the collective noun.


Yeah, looking a bit further I think they "don't exist" in the sense that they don't have distinct forms, i.e. they're identical to the 3rd person pronouns. Maybe there's a language that does make the distinction...?

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PostPosted: Sun 16 Sep 2012, 19:51 
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Location: tʰæ.ɹʷˠə.ˈgɜʉ̯.nɜ kʰæ.tə.ˈlɜʉ̯.nʲɜ spɛ̝ɪ̯n ˈjʏː.ɹəʔp
Looking for terminology, but haven't found it.

I'm thinking of inflecting verbs (in a language not yet invented) according to "stating facts/ideas" and "making value judgements".

Neutral/indifferent statement: I see you.
Negative statement: (It is bad/I like that) I see you.
Positive statement: (It is good/I like that) I see you.

The first I can relate to indicative, but the other two I'm not sure about. Qualitative of some sort?

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PostPosted: Sun 16 Sep 2012, 20:43 
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I've read it called affect.

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PostPosted: Sun 16 Sep 2012, 21:27 
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Location: tʰæ.ɹʷˠə.ˈgɜʉ̯.nɜ kʰæ.tə.ˈlɜʉ̯.nʲɜ spɛ̝ɪ̯n ˈjʏː.ɹəʔp
Thanks, that's it. So I have (potentially) inflections for neutral, perjorative and approbative affects on my verbs.

What's the grammatical opposite for "volitional"? (another idea for inflection, this language could get psychological, lol)

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PostPosted: Mon 17 Sep 2012, 04:25 
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@sangi39:

That's what I assumed. I have been searching some more and still couldn't find a direct answer. I even checked out my local library, and couldn't find anything. I just had a feeling "collective pronouns" didn't exist, and were just pronouns.

What would be the best way to describe that to someone? Or would actually calling them "Collective pronouns" be the best term for it?

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PostPosted: Tue 18 Sep 2012, 16:18 
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Some English dialects merge /ɑː/ and /ɒ/, but keep /ɔː/ distinct.

Others merge /ɒ/ and /ɔː/, but keep /ɑː/ distinct.

Yet others merge all three of them - /ɑː/, /ɒ/ and /ɔː/.

Is there an English dialect that merges /ɑː/ and /ɔː/, while keeping /ɒ/ distinct?

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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep 2012, 22:21 
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I just found out something I think I should have known a while ago.
"omega" means a long or large or big "o".
"omicron" means a short or small "o".
The Greek morpheme "psil-", as in "psilanthropy" (the doctrine that Jesus was only human), means bare or mere or naked or plain or simple.
"epsilon" thus means a mere "e".

So here's my question.
"epsilon" contrasts with "eta".
Does "eta" mean some kind of "e" as well? What's the etymology of the word "eta"?

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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep 2012, 22:23 
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eldin raigmore wrote:
I just found out something I think I should have known a while ago.
"omega" means a long or large or big "o".
"omicron" means a short or small "o".
The Greek morpheme "psil-", as in "psilanthropy" (the doctrine that Jesus was only human), means bare or mere or naked or plain or simple.
"epsilon" thus means a mere "e".

So here's my question.
"epsilon" contrasts with "eta".
Does "eta" mean some kind of "e" as well? What's the etymology of the word "eta"?

Huh... that's interesting. I don't know myself but it would be cool to know.

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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep 2012, 22:37 
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eldin raigmore wrote:
Does "eta" mean some kind of "e" as well? What's the etymology of the word "eta"?


I know that "eta" comes from "heta", because it was indicating a [h] at first. In phoenician alphabet, where the greek one originates from, it's [ħ] "het", which means wall.
See here and here

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PostPosted: Mon 24 Sep 2012, 02:08 
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@ Eldin -

Just as E epsilon means "simple e"

Y upsilon means "simple, naked u". Originally, upsilon had a value of [u], but it gained a higher, thinner [y] sound. The more robust, lower [u:] sound was taken up by the Greek digraph OY.

That was how my old Greek Teachers explained it. But apparently, Wikipedia sez that
upsilon acquired the name to distinguish it from the digraph OI which originally was pronounced [ɔj] but acquired the sound of [y:] over time. [O.o]

I like the latter explanation b/c it jives with how I made my :ell: :con: Iveriki change final -OI [ɔj] into -YI [yi] {like a tense version of French oui} , and -OIΣ [ɔjs] into -YΣ [ys]. [:)]


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PostPosted: Mon 24 Sep 2012, 02:18 
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Different question, tangentially related to Eldin's (via Omega) -

Are the words maha-vakyas of the Upanishads cognate with :lat: magnae voces, and :grc: μεγάλα ἔπη ???


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PostPosted: Mon 24 Sep 2012, 11:41 
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Lambuzhao wrote:
Different question, tangentially related to Eldin's (via Omega) -

Are the words maha-vakyas of the Upanishads cognate with :lat: magnae voces, and :grc: μεγάλα ἔπη ???

According to the etymologies given for magnus and vox in Wiktionary, the answer would apparently be yes.

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