(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here [2010-2019]

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HoskhMatriarch
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch »

Salmoneus wrote:German.

Masculine singular: er - ihn - ihm - seiner - sich - sich (nom, acc, dat, gen, refl-acc, refl-dat)
Neuter singular: es - es - ihm - seiner - sich - sich
Feminine singular: sie - sie - ihr - ihrer - sich - sich
Plural: sie - sie - ihnen - sich - sich
(if that 'sich sich' sounds regular, it's not really: for 1st person it's mich - mir, and for 2nd it's dich - dir)

Suppletion, cases, gender.
I said gender in the 3rd person plural, which German does not have. Without the bit about gender in plural, even English qualifies, since English has cases on pronouns.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir »

HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:German.

Masculine singular: er - ihn - ihm - seiner - sich - sich (nom, acc, dat, gen, refl-acc, refl-dat)
Neuter singular: es - es - ihm - seiner - sich - sich
Feminine singular: sie - sie - ihr - ihrer - sich - sich
Plural: sie - sie - ihnen - sich - sich
(if that 'sich sich' sounds regular, it's not really: for 1st person it's mich - mir, and for 2nd it's dich - dir)

Suppletion, cases, gender.
I said gender in the 3rd person plural, which German does not have. Without the bit about gender in plural, even English qualifies, since English has cases on pronouns.
No, that's not all you said.
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Does anyone know any other languages that have pronouns like Icelandic? By "like Icelandic" I mean lots of suppletive forms, cases, and gender in 3rd person plural. I would look through WALS but they don't even have Icelandic on their list of languages most of the time, and some of the languages they said should be similar to Icelandic (like Latvian) don't really appear to have a person-number stem for pronouns in the 3rd person. I'd be especially interested if any such language had pronouns the same as demonstratives, articles, or some other word, but it's not a requirement.
Your question was answered, and in such a way that it should be easy (even for me) to extrapolate a 3PL into existance.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch »

Keenir wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:German.

Masculine singular: er - ihn - ihm - seiner - sich - sich (nom, acc, dat, gen, refl-acc, refl-dat)
Neuter singular: es - es - ihm - seiner - sich - sich
Feminine singular: sie - sie - ihr - ihrer - sich - sich
Plural: sie - sie - ihnen - sich - sich
(if that 'sich sich' sounds regular, it's not really: for 1st person it's mich - mir, and for 2nd it's dich - dir)

Suppletion, cases, gender.
I said gender in the 3rd person plural, which German does not have. Without the bit about gender in plural, even English qualifies, since English has cases on pronouns.
No, that's not all you said.
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Does anyone know any other languages that have pronouns like Icelandic? By "like Icelandic" I mean lots of suppletive forms, cases, and gender in 3rd person plural. I would look through WALS but they don't even have Icelandic on their list of languages most of the time, and some of the languages they said should be similar to Icelandic (like Latvian) don't really appear to have a person-number stem for pronouns in the 3rd person. I'd be especially interested if any such language had pronouns the same as demonstratives, articles, or some other word, but it's not a requirement.
Your question was answered, and in such a way that it should be easy (even for me) to extrapolate a 3PL into existance.
It said gender in the 3rd person plural right there next to what you bolded...

Also, most of the languages here don't have resources: http://wals.info/combinations/35A_44A#2/16.7/148.9
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir »

HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Keenir wrote:No, that's not all you said.
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Does anyone know any other languages that have pronouns like Icelandic? By "like Icelandic" I mean lots of suppletive forms, cases, and gender in 3rd person plural. I would look through WALS but they don't even have Icelandic on their list of languages most of the time, and some of the languages they said should be similar to Icelandic (like Latvian) don't really appear to have a person-number stem for pronouns in the 3rd person. I'd be especially interested if any such language had pronouns the same as demonstratives, articles, or some other word, but it's not a requirement.
Your question was answered, and in such a way that it should be easy (even for me) to extrapolate a 3PL into existance.
It said gender in the 3rd person plural right there next to what you bolded...
and you seemed distraught that WALS had nothing even similar to Icelandic, so something near to it was provided, and you also said but its not a requirement.
Also, most of the languages here don't have resources: http://wals.info/combinations/35A_44A#2/16.7/148.9
very well; since you want langs that match Icelandic 100%... icelandiconline.is/index.html http://www.101languages.net/icelandic/
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch »

Keenir wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Keenir wrote:No, that's not all you said.
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Does anyone know any other languages that have pronouns like Icelandic? By "like Icelandic" I mean lots of suppletive forms, cases, and gender in 3rd person plural. I would look through WALS but they don't even have Icelandic on their list of languages most of the time, and some of the languages they said should be similar to Icelandic (like Latvian) don't really appear to have a person-number stem for pronouns in the 3rd person. I'd be especially interested if any such language had pronouns the same as demonstratives, articles, or some other word, but it's not a requirement.
Your question was answered, and in such a way that it should be easy (even for me) to extrapolate a 3PL into existance.
It said gender in the 3rd person plural right there next to what you bolded...
and you seemed distraught that WALS had nothing even similar to Icelandic, so something near to it was provided, and you also said but its not a requirement.
Also, most of the languages here don't have resources: http://wals.info/combinations/35A_44A#2/16.7/148.9
very well; since you want langs that match Icelandic 100%... icelandiconline.is/index.html http://www.101languages.net/icelandic/
I said it was not a requirement that pronouns be the same as any other words such as demonstratives. I guess I'm not very good at typing.

I also don't mean match Icelandic 100%, I just mean have the same sorts of categories for pronouns. German doesn't count because German pronouns don't have gender in the 3rd person plural.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir »

HoskhMatriarch wrote: I also don't mean match Icelandic 100%, I just mean have the same sorts of categories for pronouns. German doesn't count because German pronouns don't have gender in the 3rd person plural.
so, given samples of other languages, you can't extrapolate?

?how about if you just work on your conlang; I bet a superior 3PL will appear before you while you're making example questions&statements.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch »

Keenir wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote: I also don't mean match Icelandic 100%, I just mean have the same sorts of categories for pronouns. German doesn't count because German pronouns don't have gender in the 3rd person plural.
so, given samples of other languages, you can't extrapolate?

?how about if you just work on your conlang; I bet a superior 3PL will appear before you while you're making example questions&statements.
Well, I need pronouns to be able to make sentences, since they get jammed onto the verb. I guess I don't need plural if I have singular though.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir »

HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Keenir wrote: ?how about if you just work on your conlang; I bet a superior 3PL will appear before you while you're making example questions&statements.[/size]
Well, I need pronouns to be able to make sentences, since they get jammed onto the verb.
part of the good grammars, is showing what isn't allowed. (like a pronounless verb, in your conlang)
I guess I don't need plural if I have singular though.
[+1] yes
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch »

Keenir wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Keenir wrote: ?how about if you just work on your conlang; I bet a superior 3PL will appear before you while you're making example questions&statements.[/size]
Well, I need pronouns to be able to make sentences, since they get jammed onto the verb.
part of the good grammars, is showing what isn't allowed. (like a pronounless verb, in your conlang)
I guess I don't need plural if I have singular though.
[+1] yes
Well, I'm not sure if pronouns that have been jammed onto verbs can be considered anything but affixes. Especially with how they reduce. So I'm not sure I worded that well.

And with that, I mean for the time being while making sentences, not that there will be no plural pronouns ever.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Keenir wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Keenir wrote:No, that's not all you said.
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Does anyone know any other languages that have pronouns like Icelandic? By "like Icelandic" I mean lots of suppletive forms, cases, and gender in 3rd person plural. I would look through WALS but they don't even have Icelandic on their list of languages most of the time, and some of the languages they said should be similar to Icelandic (like Latvian) don't really appear to have a person-number stem for pronouns in the 3rd person. I'd be especially interested if any such language had pronouns the same as demonstratives, articles, or some other word, but it's not a requirement.
Your question was answered, and in such a way that it should be easy (even for me) to extrapolate a 3PL into existance.
It said gender in the 3rd person plural right there next to what you bolded...
and you seemed distraught that WALS had nothing even similar to Icelandic, so something near to it was provided, and you also said but its not a requirement.
Also, most of the languages here don't have resources: http://wals.info/combinations/35A_44A#2/16.7/148.9
very well; since you want langs that match Icelandic 100%... icelandiconline.is/index.html http://www.101languages.net/icelandic/
[...] German doesn't count because German pronouns don't have gender in the 3rd person plural.
So I misunderstood you, I'm sorry 'bout that.
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HoskhMatriarch
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch »

Creyeditor wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Keenir wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Keenir wrote:No, that's not all you said.
HoskhMatriarch wrote:Does anyone know any other languages that have pronouns like Icelandic? By "like Icelandic" I mean lots of suppletive forms, cases, and gender in 3rd person plural. I would look through WALS but they don't even have Icelandic on their list of languages most of the time, and some of the languages they said should be similar to Icelandic (like Latvian) don't really appear to have a person-number stem for pronouns in the 3rd person. I'd be especially interested if any such language had pronouns the same as demonstratives, articles, or some other word, but it's not a requirement.
Your question was answered, and in such a way that it should be easy (even for me) to extrapolate a 3PL into existance.
It said gender in the 3rd person plural right there next to what you bolded...
and you seemed distraught that WALS had nothing even similar to Icelandic, so something near to it was provided, and you also said but its not a requirement.
Also, most of the languages here don't have resources: http://wals.info/combinations/35A_44A#2/16.7/148.9
very well; since you want langs that match Icelandic 100%... icelandiconline.is/index.html http://www.101languages.net/icelandic/
[...] German doesn't count because German pronouns don't have gender in the 3rd person plural.
So I misunderstood you, I'm sorry 'bout that.
OK. I'm still looking for more languages with pronoun genders in the 3rd person plural.

In SOV languages, do family names normally come before personal names?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

That has nothing to do with word order. Only two or three languages actually have first name after family name: Japanese, Chinese, and Hungarian.
Those are only I know.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch »

I was under the impression that there were more, like in Bavarian with da Stoiber Ede (the Wikipedia example, they also put articles on names). Also, the order of titles and names has to do with word order, so it seems like the order of family names and personal names could too.
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Post by Keenir »

HoskhMatriarch wrote:I was under the impression that there were more, like in Bavarian with da Stoiber Ede (the Wikipedia example, they also put articles on names). Also, the order of titles and names has to do with word order, so it seems like the order of family names and personal names could too.
well, there's Korean, too; but given who its neighbors are, that's understandable.
(perhaps Bavarian was influenced by Hungarian? or a faulty wikipage?)

by "titles and names", do you mean like "First Lord of the Privy" and "Sea Lord of the Admiralty", which some people got called in place of their actual names?

maybe let us see some Hoskh titles (even if they're subject to be changed later on), and we can offer more tangible answers.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch »

Keenir wrote:
HoskhMatriarch wrote:I was under the impression that there were more, like in Bavarian with da Stoiber Ede (the Wikipedia example, they also put articles on names). Also, the order of titles and names has to do with word order, so it seems like the order of family names and personal names could too.
well, there's Korean, too; but given who its neighbors are, that's understandable.
(perhaps Bavarian was influenced by Hungarian? or a faulty wikipage?)

by "titles and names", do you mean like "First Lord of the Privy" and "Sea Lord of the Admiralty", which some people got called in place of their actual names?

maybe let us see some Hoskh titles (even if they're subject to be changed later on), and we can offer more tangible answers.
By titles I mean that in SOV languages people are more likely to be called James Doctor than Doctor James.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir »

HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Keenir wrote: by "titles and names", do you mean like "First Lord of the Privy" and "Sea Lord of the Admiralty", which some people got called in place of their actual names?

maybe let us see some Hoskh titles (even if they're subject to be changed later on), and we can offer more tangible answers.
By titles I mean that in SOV languages people are more likely to be called James Doctor than Doctor James.
and in Hoskh, that would be, what?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

Y'all are talking about honorifics, which are not Proper Nouns like people's family and given names are.

In SOV languages, yes honorifics tend come after the head noun.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ephraim »

Naming conventions, including the order of the different names, seems to be a very "shallow" part of the language that has much more to do with the culture and society than with any typological characteristics of the language. The conventions can easily change over time without any other changes to the language. You could also imagine different communities speaking the same language using different orders of names. And of course, not all communities follow the convention of having a given name and a family name. There are many other possibilities. In many parts of the world, including much of Europe, family names are a relatively recent phenomenon.

Generally, the different names seem to just be nominal phrases in apposition so they are "on the same level" syntactically. This is different from titles and honorifics, as has been pointed out.

In the absence of established naming conventions, it's possible that the origin of the names could influence the order. If you have a language where some name originated as a genitive phrases or as an adjective, I imagine that this could influence the order.
Ahzoh wrote:Only two or three languages actually have first name after family name: Japanese, Chinese, and Hungarian.
Those are only I know.
I think that order is common in much of East Asia. Vietnamese and Korean names follow the same order, I think. Tibetan names as well, although family names are rare.

Of course, the Family name first-order has some uses in western languages as well (often with a clarifying comma) in contexts where people are sorted by family name (such as bibliographies). Russian seems to make frequent use of this order. For example, the titles of Russian Wikipedia articles about people generally follow the Family name-first convention (with a comma).
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by druneragarsh »

Ephraim wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:Only two or three languages actually have first name after family name: Japanese, Chinese, and Hungarian.
Those are only I know.
I think that order is common in much of East Asia. Vietnamese and Korean names follow the same order, I think. Tibetan names as well, although family names are rare.

Of course, the Family name first-order has some uses in western languages as well (often with a clarifying comma) in contexts where people are sorted by family name (such as bibliographies). Russian seems to make frequent use of this order. For example, the titles of Russian Wikipedia articles about people generally follow the Family name-first convention (with a comma).
Side note: In addition to the usual Givenname Surname order, Finnish also has a more rarely (but still commonly!) used Surname-GEN Firstname order. It's probably a relic from the days when people's "surnames" would be the names of the farms they lived on.
Eg.
Antti Rokka - Rokan Antti
drúne, rá gárš
drun-VOC I.ERG read

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Refer to me with any sex-neutral (or feminine) 3s pronoun, either from English (no singular they please, zie etc are okay) or from one of your conlangs!
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Post by gach »

druneragarsh wrote:Side note: In addition to the usual Givenname Surname order, Finnish also has a more rarely (but still commonly!) used Surname-GEN Firstname order.
A note on usage is in order. I find myself preferring the Surname-GEN Firstname structure in cases where giving the surname is necessary to specify the person you are referring to but you still want to be informal. These are situations where I'd otherwise simply use the given name. I also tend to give my own name in the form Surname Firstname (without the genitive), when I have to identify myself against a list or database of names. These are occasions where you often want to be a bit more formal but on the other hand the names are probably alphabetised according to the surname.
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