False cognates

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Re: False cognates

Post by shimobaatar » Tue 31 Jul 2018, 13:45

k1234567890y wrote:
Tue 31 Jul 2018, 07:09
shimobaatar wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 23:17
k1234567890y wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 20:40
Pabappa wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 20:16
Apparently it survives as "even steven" .... I'd always assumed that that was just a rhyme based on the proper name.
how so?
What's unclear?
was wondering what made him/her think the proper noun possibility at first
They likely made that assumption, as I did myself, because the name "Steven/Stephen" and this "steven" are pronounced identically, at least in my variety of English. Additionally, the name is far more common, especially given that it appears that, at least in most dialects, "steven" only survives, as Pabappa said, in the phrase "even steven".
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Re: False cognates

Post by Pabappa » Tue 31 Jul 2018, 20:42

thanks, yeah. i just took it to be one of those phrases like "okey-dokey" where the first part is meaningful but the second is just a rhyme. one other example that surprised me is "willy-nilly", where both parts are meaningful.

:deu: Vielfraß is interesting, because that has led to the use of the word glutton in English as a synonym for wolverine. a folk etymology that got translated.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Imralu » Wed 01 Aug 2018, 03:11

shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 31 Jul 2018, 13:45
k1234567890y wrote:
Tue 31 Jul 2018, 07:09
shimobaatar wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 23:17
k1234567890y wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 20:40
Pabappa wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 20:16
Apparently it survives as "even steven" .... I'd always assumed that that was just a rhyme based on the proper name.
how so?
What's unclear?
was wondering what made him/her think the proper noun possibility at first
They likely made that assumption, as I did myself, because the name "Steven/Stephen" and this "steven" are pronounced identically, at least in my variety of English. Additionally, the name is far more common, especially given that it appears that, at least in most dialects, "steven" only survives, as Pabappa said, in the phrase "even steven".
In fact, how would the average person who hasn't specifically learnt it as a matter of trivia, even know that there ever was a common noun "steven"?
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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shimobaatar
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Re: False cognates

Post by shimobaatar » Wed 01 Aug 2018, 05:43

Imralu wrote:
Wed 01 Aug 2018, 03:11
shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 31 Jul 2018, 13:45
k1234567890y wrote:
Tue 31 Jul 2018, 07:09
shimobaatar wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 23:17
k1234567890y wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 20:40
Pabappa wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 20:16
Apparently it survives as "even steven" .... I'd always assumed that that was just a rhyme based on the proper name.
how so?
What's unclear?
was wondering what made him/her think the proper noun possibility at first
They likely made that assumption, as I did myself, because the name "Steven/Stephen" and this "steven" are pronounced identically, at least in my variety of English. Additionally, the name is far more common, especially given that it appears that, at least in most dialects, "steven" only survives, as Pabappa said, in the phrase "even steven".
In fact, how would the average person who hasn't specifically learnt it as a matter of trivia, even know that there ever was a common noun "steven"?
Wiktionary seems to indicate that it isn't obsolete in some dialects in northern England and Scotland, but for those of us who don't speak those dialects, exactly. How would we know?
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k1234567890y
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Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » Sun 05 Aug 2018, 06:00

English -s and Tsez -z (oblique plural ending)

English kid and Tsez kid "girl"
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Shemtov
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » Thu 09 Aug 2018, 02:39

If the Glottalic Reconstruction of PIE is right, it bears a striking resemblance to the stop system of Modern Korean.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Xonen » Thu 09 Aug 2018, 11:01

Shemtov wrote:
Thu 09 Aug 2018, 02:39
If the Glottalic Reconstruction of PIE is right, it bears a striking resemblance to the stop system of Modern Korean.
Okay, I guess these threads we have here have more or less demonstrated that pretty much anything counts as a false cognate or unfortunate coincidence or whatever in somebody's opinion... but still, I think this one's a bit of a stretch. By definition, "cognates are words that have a common etymological origin", and phonological inventories aren't words. What we'd have here would be a case of a parallel phonological structure, which are quite common cross-linguistically - and indeed, the fact that there are apparently very few if any known parallels for the usual reconstruction of the PIE stop inventory is the main reason why alternative theories like the glottalic one are so tempting.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » Fri 10 Aug 2018, 06:20

This might be a stretch, depending on your dialect's semantic spread of the first term:
:eng: Adviser, Vizier
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
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