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PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2012, 12:51 
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Well, kind of. Learning japanese got me thinking about something, and the more I thought about it, the more I wondered. I know its not a tonal language, but other than asking questions, expressing sarcasm/irony, expressing like or dislike, what other uses do we have of tone in english?

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PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2012, 17:12 
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Prosody. But English is not a tonal language.

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PostPosted: Sun 27 May 2012, 04:27 
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English is an intonational language, meaning it uses tone for emphasis, focus, topicality, and other aspects of discourse.

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PostPosted: Sun 27 May 2012, 04:45 
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However, those things, while giving keys to one's meaning, are not necessary to the language.

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PostPosted: Sun 27 May 2012, 06:24 
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Thakowsaizmu wrote:
However, those things, while giving keys to one's meaning, are not necessary to the language.

:wat: What is this "necessary" of which you speak?

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PostPosted: Sun 27 May 2012, 09:41 
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Since when has a certain linguistic feature been "necessary"?
Prosody is as "necessary" as lexicon or morphology or nyuh.

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PostPosted: Sun 27 May 2012, 15:51 
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Yeah, I know its not a tonal language per se, I kind of stated that in my OP.

But that it uses tone. Though some of its uses of tone are necessary, such as the use of tone for asking questions and adding emphasis. Expressing reluctantly going along with something may be optional, but even that expresses meaning which can be considered necessary.

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PostPosted: Sun 27 May 2012, 15:53 
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taylorS wrote:
English is an intonational language, meaning it uses tone for emphasis, focus, topicality, and other aspects of discourse.

That's the word I was looking for, but couldn't remember. Is there anything else it uses it for?

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PostPosted: Sun 27 May 2012, 20:30 
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hadad wrote:
taylorS wrote:
English is an intonational language, meaning it uses tone for emphasis, focus, topicality, and other aspects of discourse.

That's the word I was looking for, but couldn't remember. Is there anything else it uses it for?

English uses tones in quite a few registers. All of which have to do with song, though, so ...


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PostPosted: Sun 27 May 2012, 20:58 
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All languages are somewhat tonal. What is called the stress mainly realizes as tone. (That's why the real tonal languages don't normally have stress.)
If I remember right, the English stressed syllable has a higher tone than the others, in Russian the stressed syllable has a lower tone than the others. And the stress in constrastive in the both.


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PostPosted: Sun 27 May 2012, 21:15 
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Omzinesý wrote:
All languages are somewhat tonal. What is called the stress mainly realizes as tone. (That's why the real tonal languages don't normally have stress.)
If I remember right, the English stressed syllable has a higher tone than the others, in Russian the stressed syllable has a lower tone than the others. And the stress in constrastive in the both.

Danish funfact: There are patterns of tone surrounding each stressed syllable. In the Copenhagen dialect tone falls in the beginning of the stressed syllable, reaches a low point and then rises to peak on the first following unstressed syllable. Then it starts falling through the remaining unstressed syllables.

In Jutlandic dialects tone has its high peak on the stressed syllable, and falls through following unstressed syllables.

Bornholm dialect tone dips in the stressed syllable (as in Copenhagen), but doesn't peak. It slowly rises through the unstressed syllables. Need I say this sounds somewhat silly :P

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PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2012, 22:27 
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I learned that all languages use tone somewhat, even in words that are lexiconizied (oops, that didn't look quite right [:|] ).
For example take the english word "insult". When used as a noun ("an insult") the "tone" (I hope I won't get hammered down later for saying that english uses tones [;)] ) is a rising one on "i", ínsult.
However, when used as a verb (You insult me) it changes. The tone is now falling and on the "u", insùlt


By the way, I am not rock solid behind this so if any one disproves this with overwhelming evidence then I am not going to argue against you

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PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2012, 22:29 
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That's stress.

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PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2012, 22:36 
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Ceresz wrote:
That's stress.


Then why does it appear to work kinda like the tones in chinese (the way I have learned).
I mean, if it was stress, then why would one be rising and one falling? Wouldn't the stress be sounding the same where ever it will be used? That is, not rising on one place and then falling on another?

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PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2012, 22:46 
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Stress in English involves primarily volume and vowel quality, not pitch contour or register.

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PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2012, 23:15 
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Trailsend wrote:
Stress in English involves primarily volume and vowel quality, not pitch contour or register.

Not sure what the difference is, perhaps to some of us (myself included), english "stress" sounds alot to my ears like the chinese usage of tone. Fun sidenote, I actually learned some chinese from a friend who's second language is english, and her use of tone is what convinced me that english has it. I've also heard it in numerous documentaries. Maybe there's something wrong with my ears or brain's processing sounds, but they sound the same.

Also a fun fact, spanish (puerto rican variety) doesn't seem to have the same tonal features, but it's stress seems different in some ways to the english and chinese usages. Spanish stress just seems longer, with the exception of sometimes hearing it on question words.

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PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2012, 23:45 
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hadad wrote:
Trailsend wrote:
Stress in English involves primarily volume and vowel quality, not pitch contour or register.

Not sure what the difference is, perhaps to some of us (myself included), english "stress" sounds alot to my ears like the chinese usage of tone. Fun sidenote, I actually learned some chinese from a friend who's second language is english, and her use of tone is what convinced me that english has it. I've also heard it in numerous documentaries. Maybe there's something wrong with my ears or brain's processing sounds, but they sound the same.

The difference is just what I said: on the one hand, you're dealing with volume, and on the other, you're dealing with pitch.

There's nothing wrong with your ears—your brain is just wired to handle the particular prosodic devices of English, so it perceives Chinese words through that filter. With prolonged exposure, you would start picking up the difference.

For example, I decided to make Feayran tonal some time before I started learning Chinese. In lessons I wrote up for some friends, I explained the different tones in terms of English stressed and unstressed syllables, because I thought they were the same. But now, after speaking Chinese for several years, the difference between a Chinese high tone and an English stressed syllable is very obvious to me—they sound very different. Once I started hearing the difference, I could start pronouncing Feayran with actual pitch-based tones.

Which is why linguists distinguish pitch accent from dynamic accent.

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PostPosted: Tue 29 May 2012, 01:13 
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Trailsend wrote:
The difference is just what I said: on the one hand, you're dealing with volume, and on the other, you're dealing with pitch.

There's nothing wrong with your ears—your brain is just wired to handle the particular prosodic devices of English, so it perceives Chinese words through that filter. With prolonged exposure, you would start picking up the difference.

For example, I decided to make Feayran tonal some time before I started learning Chinese. In lessons I wrote up for some friends, I explained the different tones in terms of English stressed and unstressed syllables, because I thought they were the same. But now, after speaking Chinese for several years, the difference between a Chinese high tone and an English stressed syllable is very obvious to me—they sound very different. Once I started hearing the difference, I could start pronouncing Feayran with actual pitch-based tones.

Which is why linguists distinguish pitch accent from dynamic accent.

Ah, I see. Perhaps that's why also my chinese friend said I pronounced it right, because she percieved my stress changes as tonal changes, like I did the reverse? That makes sense.

I wouldn't believe you, if it weren't for the fact that just last year, I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference between the sounds of dental and alveolar "t, d, etc..."s, "t" and "Aspirated t", and the list goes on and on. Also, don't forget half the vowels of IPA sounded the same to my american ears until I "learned" to spot the difference.

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun 2012, 20:59 
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Trailsend wrote:
Stress in English involves primarily volume and vowel quality, not pitch contour or register.

Finnish, as monotonous language as we are, must use tone to produce the stress. It's famous for not having different vowel places (laxness etc.) and the vowel quantity is distinctive itself. I don't just know how the tone is.


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun 2012, 22:50 
roman
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Omzinesý wrote:
Trailsend wrote:
Stress in English involves primarily volume and vowel quality, not pitch contour or register.

Finnish, as monotonous language as we are, must use tone to produce the stress. It's famous for not having different vowel places (laxness etc.) and the vowel quantity is distinctive itself. I don't just know how the tone is.

The stress in Finnish often is not tonal at all. It's more like volume - you simply pronounce stressed vowels slightly more loud. However, the brain often parses increases in volume as higher pitch (and vice versa - higher pitch as louder!) In part this apparently has an anatomic-acoustic explanation wrt how the ear works. (And this is apparent when some not-that-good singers sing, even, some of my friends tend to mismatch modulations and increases in dynamics).


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