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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 06:30 
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arilando wrote:
Well i have read that the Riau dialect of indonesian dosn't even subject from object, has no form of noun declension and has no temporal distinctions. Through i dont much about that language, i believe that would be pretty close to "no grammar".


Derp. Are you texan, by any chance?


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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 06:35 
roman
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arilando wrote:
Systemzwang wrote:
Edit: This thread has been moved and edited. Systemzwang is not the original author. /Aszev


Welcome!

One thing I seriously recommend is a critical mindset. Some people will claim things about linguistics that are bullshit, and even if these people come off as knowledgeable oldbies, they may very well be wrong. (That said, it is my opinion that the amount of wrong on this forum has notably reduced in recent years.)

There's a surprising number of myths about language that have been established in the public consciousness - one that is surprisingly common is that French is logical, another is that some languages have no grammar

Well i have read that the Riau dialect of indonesian dosn't even subject from object, has no form of noun declension and has no temporal distinctions. Through i dont much about that language, i believe that would be pretty close to "no grammar".

The ignorance is strong with this one.

Sure, you may have read that statement somewhere. No, it's not "no grammar". Go and learn, please.

Thing is, it's probably understudied, so its grammar might not be well understood.


Last edited by Systemzwang on Thu 31 May 2012, 07:00, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 06:58 
sinic
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Off course people go berserk because i forgot to insert the word "distinguish".


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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 07:01 
roman
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arilando wrote:
Off course people go berserk because i forgot to insert the word "distinguish".

So, care to respond to my post which does not go berserk at that?


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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 07:02 
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Inserting distinguish between dosn't [sic] and even wouldn't have improved the content of your message.

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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 07:11 
sinic
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Systemzwang wrote:
arilando wrote:
Systemzwang wrote:
Edit: This thread has been moved and edited. Systemzwang is not the original author. /Aszev


Welcome!

One thing I seriously recommend is a critical mindset. Some people will claim things about linguistics that are bullshit, and even if these people come off as knowledgeable oldbies, they may very well be wrong. (That said, it is my opinion that the amount of wrong on this forum has notably reduced in recent years.)

There's a surprising number of myths about language that have been established in the public consciousness - one that is surprisingly common is that French is logical, another is that some languages have no grammar

Well i have read that the Riau dialect of indonesian dosn't even subject from object, has no form of noun declension and has no temporal distinctions. Through i dont much about that language, i believe that would be pretty close to "no grammar".

The ignorance is strong with this one.

Sure, you may have read that statement somewhere. No, it's not "no grammar". Go and learn, please.

Thing is, it's probably understudied, so its grammar might not be well understood.

According to this paper http://wwwstaff.eva.mpg.de/~cschmidt/SW ... ts/Gil.pdf words are unmarked for their role in a sentence but can be put anywhere in a sentence. Besides a didn't say "no grammar" i said pretty close to "no grammar". Off course a language cannot function with no grammmar at all.


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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 07:11 
sinic
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MrKrov wrote:
Inserting distinguish between dosn't [sic] and even wouldn't have improved the content of your message.

Why?


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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 07:21 
cleardarkness
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While fixing a grammatical error, it doesn't change the message conveyed.

Also,
Quote:
words are unmarked for their role in a sentence but can be put anywhere in a sentence.

Try reading what it says again. If I can have a page number, I can correct what you are almost certainly misreading.

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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 07:30 
sinic
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MrKrov wrote:
While fixing a grammatical error, it doesn't change the message conveyed.

Also,
Quote:
words are unmarked for their role in a sentence but can be put anywhere in a sentence.

Try reading what it says again. If I can have a page number, I can correct what you are almost certainly misreading.

What did you read it as?


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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 07:42 
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By it, I mean the entire pdf again, as I found nothing that said words could be slapped together willynilly, hence why I asked for a page number.

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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 08:43 
roman
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arilando wrote:
Systemzwang wrote:
arilando wrote:
Systemzwang wrote:
Edit: This thread has been moved and edited. Systemzwang is not the original author. /Aszev


Welcome!

One thing I seriously recommend is a critical mindset. Some people will claim things about linguistics that are bullshit, and even if these people come off as knowledgeable oldbies, they may very well be wrong. (That said, it is my opinion that the amount of wrong on this forum has notably reduced in recent years.)

There's a surprising number of myths about language that have been established in the public consciousness - one that is surprisingly common is that French is logical, another is that some languages have no grammar

Well i have read that the Riau dialect of indonesian dosn't even subject from object, has no form of noun declension and has no temporal distinctions. Through i dont much about that language, i believe that would be pretty close to "no grammar".

The ignorance is strong with this one.

Sure, you may have read that statement somewhere. No, it's not "no grammar". Go and learn, please.

Thing is, it's probably understudied, so its grammar might not be well understood.

According to this paper http://wwwstaff.eva.mpg.de/~cschmidt/SW ... ts/Gil.pdf words are unmarked for their role in a sentence but can be put anywhere in a sentence. Besides a didn't say "no grammar" i said pretty close to "no grammar". Off course a language cannot function with no grammmar at all.


Did you read the paper? That paper studies in relatively deep detail one grammatical phenomenon in Riau indonesian. There's no reason to think a priori that this is the only grammatical phenomenon in Riau indonesian, nor does the paper claim anything to that effect.


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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 08:55 
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It is rather telling that for a language with "almost no grammar," someone has managed to write at least 8 papers about its grammar.

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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 15:28 
sinic
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Systemzwang wrote:
arilando wrote:
Systemzwang wrote:
arilando wrote:
Systemzwang wrote:
Edit: This thread has been moved and edited. Systemzwang is not the original author. /Aszev


Welcome!

One thing I seriously recommend is a critical mindset. Some people will claim things about linguistics that are bullshit, and even if these people come off as knowledgeable oldbies, they may very well be wrong. (That said, it is my opinion that the amount of wrong on this forum has notably reduced in recent years.)

There's a surprising number of myths about language that have been established in the public consciousness - one that is surprisingly common is that French is logical, another is that some languages have no grammar

Well i have read that the Riau dialect of indonesian dosn't even subject from object, has no form of noun declension and has no temporal distinctions. Through i dont much about that language, i believe that would be pretty close to "no grammar".

The ignorance is strong with this one.

Sure, you may have read that statement somewhere. No, it's not "no grammar". Go and learn, please.

Thing is, it's probably understudied, so its grammar might not be well understood.

According to this paper http://wwwstaff.eva.mpg.de/~cschmidt/SW ... ts/Gil.pdf words are unmarked for their role in a sentence but can be put anywhere in a sentence. Besides a didn't say "no grammar" i said pretty close to "no grammar". Off course a language cannot function with no grammmar at all.


Did you read the paper? That paper studies in relatively deep detail one grammatical phenomenon in Riau indonesian. There's no reason to think a priori that this is the only grammatical phenomenon in Riau indonesian, nor does the paper claim anything to that effect.

It was detailing the specific aspect of riau indonesian grammar that i said i had heard about. So what is the problem?


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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 15:29 
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Trailsend wrote:
It is rather telling that for a language with "almost no grammar," someone has managed to write at least 8 papers about its grammar.

How so?


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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 15:32 
sinic
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Maximillian wrote:
I've heard this myth about how certain languages are more difficult than others. For example, many people seem to believe German is more difficult than French, but then French is more difficult than Italian, and Italian is more difficult than Spanish and so-on-forever.

Certaintly certain languages's sounds are harder to pronounce than other's.


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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 15:56 
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arilando wrote:
Certaintly certain languages's sounds are harder to pronounce than other's.


It depends on what you mean by "hard". It may well be true that certain sounds tend to be acquired later in the language development of children. (For example, dental fricatives in English.) But all sounds that actually occur in the worlds languages are obviously possible for people to learn during childhood. And when children have learnt all the "harder" sounds in their native language, they pronounce them with the same ease and fluency as the other, "simpler" sounds.

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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 17:37 
sinic
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Xing wrote:
arilando wrote:
Certaintly certain languages's sounds are harder to pronounce than other's.


It depends on what you mean by "hard". It may well be true that certain sounds tend to be acquired later in the language development of children. (For example, dental fricatives in English.) But all sounds that actually occur in the worlds languages are obviously possible for people to learn during childhood. And when children have learnt all the "harder" sounds in their native language, they pronounce them with the same ease and fluency as the other, "simpler" sounds.

Yes, but there are languages that doesn't have the "hard sounds" at all, and doesn't allow consonant clusters at all. Those language can clearly be argued to be phonetically similiar than languages which distinguishes more and more difficult sounds, and is allowing of consonant clusters.


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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 17:55 
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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 18:34 
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arilando wrote:
Those language can clearly be argued to be phonetically similiar than languages which distinguishes more and more difficult sounds, and is allowing of consonant clusters.


Ok, let's presuppose that certain phonological properties of a language are "objectively" simpler than others. Say that a CV-syllable structure is objectively more simpler than other kinds of syllables, that cardinal vowels are simpler than non-cardinals, pulmonic consonants simpler than non-pulmonic, or whatever you consider to be objectively simple.

The question for you is: why don't all languages evolve towards a more and more simple phonology? Why do people keep on using phonologies that are much more complicated than needed? Why do some languages evolve towards more "complexity", by gaining, for example, more complex syllables due to the loss of unstressed vowels?

(For example: many anglophones drop the schwa in words like history - which results in longer medial consonant cluster. Why should the go around and make their language more complicated than necessary?)

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PostPosted: Thu 31 May 2012, 18:37 
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I should add, that I highly doubt that CV-languages necessarily are easier to learn than others. I've heard from people learning Swahili and other supposedly "easy" languages that it can be quite hard to get all the syllables right - especially if there are many many similar syllables in the same word.

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