Greek zeta
Greek zeta
There is a scholarly debate. How do you think it was pronounced?
I think it was /dz/, later simplified to /z/:
-deriving /zd/ from /dj/ or /gj/ is improbable; besides if this were the case, /tj/ and /kj/ should have become /st/
-early Latin borrowed ζ as s. /zd/ would be probably borrowed as /sd/ or /st/
-there is no reason for the Greeks to borrow Hebrew/Phoenician zayin for a cluster. On the other hand, affricates are perceived as units by native speakers.
Fans of /zd/ cite the fact that Greeks borrowed Persian Ahura Mazda as Oromazes. However, Slavic town "Pozdewolk" was borrowed into German as Pasewalk, even if German had /z/.
I think it was /dz/, later simplified to /z/:
-deriving /zd/ from /dj/ or /gj/ is improbable; besides if this were the case, /tj/ and /kj/ should have become /st/
-early Latin borrowed ζ as s. /zd/ would be probably borrowed as /sd/ or /st/
-there is no reason for the Greeks to borrow Hebrew/Phoenician zayin for a cluster. On the other hand, affricates are perceived as units by native speakers.
Fans of /zd/ cite the fact that Greeks borrowed Persian Ahura Mazda as Oromazes. However, Slavic town "Pozdewolk" was borrowed into German as Pasewalk, even if German had /z/.
Re: Greek zeta
The textbook I'm using ("Athenaze", by Balme Lawall), which teaches Attic Greek, says, "ζ = σ + δ as in wisdom". This, along with all aspiration distinctions ( still bummed about those ) was thrown out the window because the class is about Koine Greek, particularly New Testament Greek. I personally think that /dz/ makes more sense and is easier to pronounce than /zd/. I mean, seriously, /zdεta/? Sounds out of place to me.
But at least we don't have to cope with pitch accent or accent marks in my class, except for marking the conjugations of ἐιμί.
But at least we don't have to cope with pitch accent or accent marks in my class, except for marking the conjugations of ἐιμί.
Hra'anh | | | | :heb: | | | | |
Re: Greek zeta
Oh, Zeta! Oft-overlooked stepchild among voiced Greek consonants...
Arguments In favor of /sd, zd/:
Transcriptions of Persian/Asian names (Indeed!):
Artavazda = Ἀρτάβαζος / Ἀρτάοζος
Ashdod was transcribed as Αζωτος.
Attic Inscriptions –
θεοζοτος for θεος δοτος
Lacedaimonian dialect wrote -ισδω
For verbs in -ιζω
*NB: Be careful of zeta from /dj/
A big, overlooked subset is from Tragic/Doric dialect
ζα- for δια- in compounds
...
*glōkja < *glōtsa < γλωττα (Attic/Ion); γλωσσα (Dor)
Cf. γλωχις “arrowpoint” (Ringe, Lectures 1993)
Personally, I pronounce /z/, and have to force myself to actually
Articulate it /zd/ or /dz/. One of my old profs kind of urged us to pronounce it /zd/.
I don't think I ever got used to that completely.
My intuition is that it might have been originally pronounced as /dz/,
But assimilated to /zd/ as compared to the (not too common) but
Still attestable clusters /σβ, σγ/ [zb, zg] E.g. Λεσβος, ολισβος, σβεννυμι; φάσγανον, ‘οσγε, μίσγω.
Of course, those clusters are represented by two letters, not one.
Arguments In favor of /sd, zd/:
Transcriptions of Persian/Asian names (Indeed!):
Artavazda = Ἀρτάβαζος / Ἀρτάοζος
Ashdod was transcribed as Αζωτος.
Attic Inscriptions –
θεοζοτος for θεος δοτος
Lacedaimonian dialect wrote -ισδω
For verbs in -ιζω
*NB: Be careful of zeta from /dj/
A big, overlooked subset is from Tragic/Doric dialect
ζα- for δια- in compounds
...
Yeah. Should have, but didn’t. /tj, kj/ →/ts//tj/ and /kj/ should have become /st/
*glōkja < *glōtsa < γλωττα (Attic/Ion); γλωσσα (Dor)
Cf. γλωχις “arrowpoint” (Ringe, Lectures 1993)
Personally, I pronounce /z/, and have to force myself to actually
Articulate it /zd/ or /dz/. One of my old profs kind of urged us to pronounce it /zd/.
I don't think I ever got used to that completely.
My intuition is that it might have been originally pronounced as /dz/,
But assimilated to /zd/ as compared to the (not too common) but
Still attestable clusters /σβ, σγ/ [zb, zg] E.g. Λεσβος, ολισβος, σβεννυμι; φάσγανον, ‘οσγε, μίσγω.
Of course, those clusters are represented by two letters, not one.
Re: Greek zeta
Perhaps to /zz/ ? This would be analogous to /ts/ -> /ss/ you've mentioned. Then, /sd/ could have also assimilated to /zz/, making it possible to write -ισδω instead of -ιζω in an act of hyper-correction.My intuition is that it might have been originally pronounced as /dz/, but assimilated to /zd/
Re: Greek zeta
Y'know
there are late (Hellenistic, Byzantine...erm Byzantine, pretty sure) inscriptions which actually have double zeta where one would've made the point (?!).
there are late (Hellenistic, Byzantine...erm Byzantine, pretty sure) inscriptions which actually have double zeta where one would've made the point (?!).
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Re: Greek zeta
The theory I know is that /dz/ metathesized to [zd] after /ts/ was lost, because a singular voiced affricate is typologically unusual among languages (note the opposite, a singular voiceless affricate, is perfectly stable, like in Spanish).
Re: Greek zeta
Arabic has /ʤ/ but no /ʧ/ since 1500 years or so.cntrational wrote:The theory I know is that /dz/ metathesized to [zd] after /ts/ was lost, because a singular voiced affricate is typologically unusual among languages (note the opposite, a singular voiceless affricate, is perfectly stable, like in Spanish).
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Re: Greek zeta
Fair point, but I'd note that it's often changed to [ʒ] in many dialects and some dialects/regional languages have added /tʃ/ as a phoneme.ABC wrote:Arabic has /ʤ/ but no /ʧ/ since 1500 years or so.cntrational wrote:The theory I know is that /dz/ metathesized to [zd] after /ts/ was lost, because a singular voiced affricate is typologically unusual among languages (note the opposite, a singular voiceless affricate, is perfectly stable, like in Spanish).
Re: Greek zeta
Yemeni Arabic does.ABC wrote:Arabic has /ʤ/ but no /ʧ/ since 1500 years or so.cntrational wrote:The theory I know is that /dz/ metathesized to [zd] after /ts/ was lost, because a singular voiced affricate is typologically unusual among languages (note the opposite, a singular voiceless affricate, is perfectly stable, like in Spanish).
Hey there.
Re: Greek zeta
It's /g/ in Egyptian Arabic.cntrational wrote:Fair point, but I'd note that it's often changed to [ʒ] in many dialects and some dialects/regional languages have added /tʃ/ as a phoneme.ABC wrote:Arabic has /ʤ/ but no /ʧ/ since 1500 years or so.cntrational wrote:The theory I know is that /dz/ metathesized to [zd] after /ts/ was lost, because a singular voiced affricate is typologically unusual among languages (note the opposite, a singular voiceless affricate, is perfectly stable, like in Spanish).
Hey there.
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Re: Greek zeta
Yes, and it doesn't have tʃ, or dʒ.Helios wrote:It's /g/ in Egyptian Arabic.cntrational wrote:Fair point, but I'd note that it's often changed to [ʒ] in many dialects and some dialects/regional languages have added /tʃ/ as a phoneme.ABC wrote:Arabic has /ʤ/ but no /ʧ/ since 1500 years or so.cntrational wrote:The theory I know is that /dz/ metathesized to [zd] after /ts/ was lost, because a singular voiced affricate is typologically unusual among languages (note the opposite, a singular voiceless affricate, is perfectly stable, like in Spanish).
Re: Greek zeta
My PIE book consistently uses zd for the Greek reflexes, at least.