False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
Iyionaku
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2102
Joined: 25 May 2014 14:17

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Iyionaku »

:eng: to overhear sth. / to oversee sth.
:deu: etw. überhören / etw. übersehen

The German ones actually mean "not to hear / not to see sth.". This can actually cause confusion because it is not immediately obvious that the German speaker didn't mean "overhear", or the English speaker didn't mean "überhören", respectively.
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2945
Joined: 10 Nov 2012 20:52
Location: California

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Dormouse559 »

Iyionaku wrote: 19 Feb 2018 14:51 :eng: to overhear sth. / to oversee sth.
:deu: etw. überhören / etw. übersehen

The German ones actually mean "not to hear / not to see sth.". This can actually cause confusion because it is not immediately obvious that the German speaker didn't mean "overhear", or the English speaker didn't mean "überhören", respectively.
Ooh, excellent! I wonder if we can make this even knottier. The noun form of "oversee" is "oversight", which can mean either "supervision" or "omission".
User avatar
ixals
sinic
sinic
Posts: 446
Joined: 28 Jul 2015 18:43

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by ixals »

Dormouse559 wrote: 19 Feb 2018 18:22
Iyionaku wrote: 19 Feb 2018 14:51 :eng: to overhear sth. / to oversee sth.
:deu: etw. überhören / etw. übersehen

The German ones actually mean "not to hear / not to see sth.". This can actually cause confusion because it is not immediately obvious that the German speaker didn't mean "overhear", or the English speaker didn't mean "überhören", respectively.
Ooh, excellent! I wonder if we can make this even knottier. The noun form of "oversee" is "oversight", which can mean either "supervision" or "omission".
I think we can! Übersicht is neither oversight nor supervision or omission, but rather overview.
Native: :deu:
Learning: :gbr:, :chn:, :tur:, :fra:

Zhér·dûn a tonal Germanic conlang

old stuff: Цiски | Noattȯč | Tungōnis Vīdīnōs
User avatar
Pabappa
greek
greek
Posts: 577
Joined: 18 Nov 2017 02:41

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Pabappa »

On Wikipedia around 2005, the developers borrowed a German software module, Aufsicht , into English as "extension:Oversight", with the verb also being called "oversight" and the agent of this verb being "oversighter". For some reason, perhaps just to make it easier for developers, even the German Wikipedia came to use the term "Oversight " instead of the original Aufsicht.

In any case, the meaning of the word was not the same as either of the established meanings of the English word. The extension has been replaced by "RevisionDelete" but the use of "oversight(er)" is still common even though the two extensions are originally two separate modules.
Kavunupupis, šiŋuputata.
When I see you pointing at me, I know I'm in trouble. (Play)
GrandPiano
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2080
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 23:22
Location: USA

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by GrandPiano »

There are three verbs in Japanese that are pronounced “haku” (履く “to put on/wear (lower-body clothing or shoes)”, 吐く “to vomit”, and 掃く “to sweep”), and it just occurred to me that at an earlier period in the language’s history, all of these verbs would have been pronounced “faku”.

(More accurately [ɸaku])
User avatar
Lao Kou
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 5089
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Lao Kou »

Dormouse559 wrote: 19 Feb 2018 18:22Ooh, excellent! I wonder if we can make this even knottier. The noun form of "oversee" is "oversight", which can mean either "supervision" or "omission".
The verb "overlook" has the sense of "look out over" (A hotel that overlooks the ocean) as well as the sense of "not see", "disregard".
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Creyeditor »

ixals wrote: 19 Feb 2018 18:41
Dormouse559 wrote: 19 Feb 2018 18:22
Iyionaku wrote: 19 Feb 2018 14:51 :eng: to overhear sth. / to oversee sth.
:deu: etw. überhören / etw. übersehen

The German ones actually mean "not to hear / not to see sth.". This can actually cause confusion because it is not immediately obvious that the German speaker didn't mean "overhear", or the English speaker didn't mean "überhören", respectively.
Ooh, excellent! I wonder if we can make this even knottier. The noun form of "oversee" is "oversight", which can mean either "supervision" or "omission".
I think we can! Übersicht is neither oversight nor supervision or omission, but rather overview.
Also maybe one could add colloquial German rübersehen/rübergucken which for me usually means 'to proofread' aka 'to look over'. Probably there is some German dialect where this is rüberschauen.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
Iyionaku
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2102
Joined: 25 May 2014 14:17

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Iyionaku »

GrandPiano wrote: 19 Feb 2018 22:49 There are three verbs in Japanese that are pronounced “haku” (履く “to put on/wear (lower-body clothing or shoes)”, 吐く “to vomit”, and 掃く “to sweep”), and it just occurred to me that at an earlier period in the language’s history, all of these verbs would have been pronounced “faku”.

(More accurately [ɸaku])
That's the problem if you speak a language with about 100 possible syllables (even Mandarin, the popular synonym of a language full of homophones, has about a thousand!). I am pretty sure there are dozens like this.
Creyeditor wrote: 20 Feb 2018 10:22 Also maybe one could add colloquial German rübersehen/rübergucken which for me usually means 'to proofread' aka 'to look over'. Probably there is some German dialect where this is rüberschauen.
It's drüberschauen in my idiolect. rübersehen/rübergucken/rüberschauen for me means something different: "to look across something / to look here".

"Kannst du mal kurz rüberschauen (damit ich ein Foto machen kann)?"
Can you just look here (so I can take a photo)?

In case you and I were both not mistaken, we just found a language-internal false friend! [:D]
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
GrandPiano
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2080
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 23:22
Location: USA

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by GrandPiano »

Iyionaku wrote: 20 Feb 2018 11:14
GrandPiano wrote: 19 Feb 2018 22:49 There are three verbs in Japanese that are pronounced “haku” (履く “to put on/wear (lower-body clothing or shoes)”, 吐く “to vomit”, and 掃く “to sweep”), and it just occurred to me that at an earlier period in the language’s history, all of these verbs would have been pronounced “faku”.

(More accurately [ɸaku])
That's the problem if you speak a language with about 100 possible syllables (even Mandarin, the popular synonym of a language full of homophones, has about a thousand!). I am pretty sure there are dozens like this.
I guess it might have been unclear, but the unfortunate coincidence I was trying to point to was the English word that “faku” sounds like.
Iyionaku
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2102
Joined: 25 May 2014 14:17

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Iyionaku »

:idn: dua - two
Fiji: dua - one

Both are Malayo-Polynesian languages - I wonder how that could emerge?
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Creyeditor »

One can only guess.
Indonesian dua comes from Proto-Austronesian *<duSa> /dusa/.
The Fijian form is IINM /dua/. If we assume the Proto-Austronesian form *<əsa> /əça/, we habe to assume schwa deletion (>/ça/), foritition (>/da/) and diphthongization (maybe also depalatalization?) to get /dua/. Interestingly Proto-Austronesian *d>r, so there might have been a need to gain new d's?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
Iyionaku
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2102
Joined: 25 May 2014 14:17

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Iyionaku »

Creyeditor wrote: 22 Feb 2018 12:50 Interestingly Proto-Austronesian *d>r, so there might have been a need to gain new d's?
Indeed, the number two in Fijian is rua.
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 3030
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Salmoneus »

Creyeditor wrote: 22 Feb 2018 12:50 One can only guess.
Indonesian dua comes from Proto-Austronesian *<duSa> /dusa/.
The Fijian form is IINM /dua/. If we assume the Proto-Austronesian form *<əsa> /əça/, we habe to assume schwa deletion (>/ça/), foritition (>/da/) and diphthongization (maybe also depalatalization?) to get /dua/. Interestingly Proto-Austronesian *d>r, so there might have been a need to gain new d's?
The ACD says that it is "not clear" whether any reflex of esa/isa/asa survives in Oceanic, other than the article, and that the possible reflexes are probably morphologically complex if they're related at all. Polynesian apparently has *tasi, which has an alveolar in it but otherwise doesn't look that close to dua. The fact that the first two polynesian numbers, dua rua, rhyme, seems a little suspicious to me.
Iyionaku
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2102
Joined: 25 May 2014 14:17

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Iyionaku »

Salmoneus wrote: 22 Feb 2018 14:06 The fact that the first two polynesian numbers, dua rua, rhyme, seems a little suspicious to me.
Why though? In German, 2 and 3 rhyme too. (zwei/drei). And yes, it causes a lot of confusion. There is an alternative form of 2, "two", that descriptively is exclusively used to distinguish 2 from 3. But I get off the point...
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 3030
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Salmoneus »

Iyionaku wrote: 22 Feb 2018 15:49
Salmoneus wrote: 22 Feb 2018 14:06 The fact that the first two polynesian numbers, dua rua, rhyme, seems a little suspicious to me.
Why though? In German, 2 and 3 rhyme too. (zwei/drei). And yes, it causes a lot of confusion. There is an alternative form of 2, "two", that descriptively is exclusively used to distinguish 2 from 3. But I get off the point...
Well, you just answered that question yourself, didn't you? Why do German 'zwei' and 'drei' rhyme? Because 'zwei' has been reformulated analogically in order to rhyme with 'drei'.

Well, we don't know that. But clearly 'zwei' is not regularly derived from *dwoH. There may have been some analogy from nominal and adjectival paradigms, but it's rather suspicious that the odd resulting neuter form rhymed with the next number. And then it's rather convenient that the OHG masculine form just stopped being used, replaced by the rhyming neuter form.

The point is: it's common for numbers to derive irregularly due to influence from adjacent numbers. The fact that dua and rua rhyme makes me wonder whether 'dua' has been irregularly influenced by 'rua' at some point.
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 3283
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 04:06

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Shemtov »

Salmoneus wrote: 22 Feb 2018 18:01
Iyionaku wrote: 22 Feb 2018 15:49
Salmoneus wrote: 22 Feb 2018 14:06 The fact that the first two polynesian numbers, dua rua, rhyme, seems a little suspicious to me.
Why though? In German, 2 and 3 rhyme too. (zwei/drei). And yes, it causes a lot of confusion. There is an alternative form of 2, "two", that descriptively is exclusively used to distinguish 2 from 3. But I get off the point...
Well, you just answered that question yourself, didn't you? Why do German 'zwei' and 'drei' rhyme? Because 'zwei' has been reformulated analogically in order to rhyme with 'drei'.

Well, we don't know that. But clearly 'zwei' is not regularly derived from *dwoH. There may have been some analogy from nominal and adjectival paradigms, but it's rather suspicious that the odd resulting neuter form rhymed with the next number. And then it's rather convenient that the OHG masculine form just stopped being used, replaced by the rhyming neuter form.

The point is: it's common for numbers to derive irregularly due to influence from adjacent numbers. The fact that dua and rua rhyme makes me wonder whether 'dua' has been irregularly influenced by 'rua' at some point.
There are some Yiddish dialects that pronounce Tsvay as /t͡sveɪ/. See also Proto-Slavic *devętь from PIE *h₁néwn̥. Wiktionary comments: "the initial 'd' in Eastern Baltic and Slavic has sometimes been explained as dissimilation, or by alliteration to *desętь (“ten”)" . Also, Proto-Germanic *fedwōr "four" is that way, instead of the expected **kedwōr, because of the initial /f/ in PGerm word for "five".
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1765
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by All4Ɇn »

:ell: Τυφών- Typhon (Greek mythological monster considered to be the creator of massive storms)
:eng: Typhoon
Khemehekis
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3883
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 09:36
Location: California über alles

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Khemehekis »

GrandPiano wrote: 20 Feb 2018 22:10 I guess it might have been unclear, but the unfortunate coincidence I was trying to point to was the English word that “faku” sounds like.
Faku? Not paku?
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10373
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by shimobaatar »

Khemehekis wrote: 24 Feb 2018 00:34
GrandPiano wrote: 20 Feb 2018 22:10 I guess it might have been unclear, but the unfortunate coincidence I was trying to point to was the English word that “faku” sounds like.
Faku? Not paku?
"faku" would have been an intermediate stage between "paku" and "haku".
GrandPiano
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2080
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 23:22
Location: USA

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by GrandPiano »

shimobaatar wrote: 24 Feb 2018 00:42
Khemehekis wrote: 24 Feb 2018 00:34
GrandPiano wrote: 20 Feb 2018 22:10 I guess it might have been unclear, but the unfortunate coincidence I was trying to point to was the English word that “faku” sounds like.
Faku? Not paku?
"faku" would have been an intermediate stage between "paku" and "haku".
Yep. Word-initial [p] became [ɸ], and [ɸ] became [h] everywhere except before /u/, which is why ふ is pronounced “fu”.
Post Reply