False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
to overhear sth. / to oversee sth.
etw. überhören / etw. übersehen
The German ones actually mean "not to hear / not to see sth.". This can actually cause confusion because it is not immediately obvious that the German speaker didn't mean "overhear", or the English speaker didn't mean "überhören", respectively.
etw. überhören / etw. übersehen
The German ones actually mean "not to hear / not to see sth.". This can actually cause confusion because it is not immediately obvious that the German speaker didn't mean "overhear", or the English speaker didn't mean "überhören", respectively.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Ooh, excellent! I wonder if we can make this even knottier. The noun form of "oversee" is "oversight", which can mean either "supervision" or "omission".Iyionaku wrote: ↑19 Feb 2018 14:51 to overhear sth. / to oversee sth.
etw. überhören / etw. übersehen
The German ones actually mean "not to hear / not to see sth.". This can actually cause confusion because it is not immediately obvious that the German speaker didn't mean "overhear", or the English speaker didn't mean "überhören", respectively.
Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
I think we can! Übersicht is neither oversight nor supervision or omission, but rather overview.Dormouse559 wrote: ↑19 Feb 2018 18:22Ooh, excellent! I wonder if we can make this even knottier. The noun form of "oversee" is "oversight", which can mean either "supervision" or "omission".Iyionaku wrote: ↑19 Feb 2018 14:51 to overhear sth. / to oversee sth.
etw. überhören / etw. übersehen
The German ones actually mean "not to hear / not to see sth.". This can actually cause confusion because it is not immediately obvious that the German speaker didn't mean "overhear", or the English speaker didn't mean "überhören", respectively.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
On Wikipedia around 2005, the developers borrowed a German software module, Aufsicht , into English as "extension:Oversight", with the verb also being called "oversight" and the agent of this verb being "oversighter". For some reason, perhaps just to make it easier for developers, even the German Wikipedia came to use the term "Oversight " instead of the original Aufsicht.
In any case, the meaning of the word was not the same as either of the established meanings of the English word. The extension has been replaced by "RevisionDelete" but the use of "oversight(er)" is still common even though the two extensions are originally two separate modules.
In any case, the meaning of the word was not the same as either of the established meanings of the English word. The extension has been replaced by "RevisionDelete" but the use of "oversight(er)" is still common even though the two extensions are originally two separate modules.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
There are three verbs in Japanese that are pronounced “haku” (履く “to put on/wear (lower-body clothing or shoes)”, 吐く “to vomit”, and 掃く “to sweep”), and it just occurred to me that at an earlier period in the language’s history, all of these verbs would have been pronounced “faku”.
(More accurately [ɸaku])
(More accurately [ɸaku])
Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
The verb "overlook" has the sense of "look out over" (A hotel that overlooks the ocean) as well as the sense of "not see", "disregard".Dormouse559 wrote: ↑19 Feb 2018 18:22Ooh, excellent! I wonder if we can make this even knottier. The noun form of "oversee" is "oversight", which can mean either "supervision" or "omission".
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☯ 名可名,非常名
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Also maybe one could add colloquial German rübersehen/rübergucken which for me usually means 'to proofread' aka 'to look over'. Probably there is some German dialect where this is rüberschauen.ixals wrote: ↑19 Feb 2018 18:41I think we can! Übersicht is neither oversight nor supervision or omission, but rather overview.Dormouse559 wrote: ↑19 Feb 2018 18:22Ooh, excellent! I wonder if we can make this even knottier. The noun form of "oversee" is "oversight", which can mean either "supervision" or "omission".Iyionaku wrote: ↑19 Feb 2018 14:51 to overhear sth. / to oversee sth.
etw. überhören / etw. übersehen
The German ones actually mean "not to hear / not to see sth.". This can actually cause confusion because it is not immediately obvious that the German speaker didn't mean "overhear", or the English speaker didn't mean "überhören", respectively.
Creyeditor
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
That's the problem if you speak a language with about 100 possible syllables (even Mandarin, the popular synonym of a language full of homophones, has about a thousand!). I am pretty sure there are dozens like this.GrandPiano wrote: ↑19 Feb 2018 22:49 There are three verbs in Japanese that are pronounced “haku” (履く “to put on/wear (lower-body clothing or shoes)”, 吐く “to vomit”, and 掃く “to sweep”), and it just occurred to me that at an earlier period in the language’s history, all of these verbs would have been pronounced “faku”.
(More accurately [ɸaku])
It's drüberschauen in my idiolect. rübersehen/rübergucken/rüberschauen for me means something different: "to look across something / to look here".Creyeditor wrote: ↑20 Feb 2018 10:22 Also maybe one could add colloquial German rübersehen/rübergucken which for me usually means 'to proofread' aka 'to look over'. Probably there is some German dialect where this is rüberschauen.
"Kannst du mal kurz rüberschauen (damit ich ein Foto machen kann)?"
Can you just look here (so I can take a photo)?
In case you and I were both not mistaken, we just found a language-internal false friend!
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
I guess it might have been unclear, but the unfortunate coincidence I was trying to point to was the English word that “faku” sounds like.Iyionaku wrote: ↑20 Feb 2018 11:14That's the problem if you speak a language with about 100 possible syllables (even Mandarin, the popular synonym of a language full of homophones, has about a thousand!). I am pretty sure there are dozens like this.GrandPiano wrote: ↑19 Feb 2018 22:49 There are three verbs in Japanese that are pronounced “haku” (履く “to put on/wear (lower-body clothing or shoes)”, 吐く “to vomit”, and 掃く “to sweep”), and it just occurred to me that at an earlier period in the language’s history, all of these verbs would have been pronounced “faku”.
(More accurately [ɸaku])
Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
dua - two
Fiji: dua - one
Both are Malayo-Polynesian languages - I wonder how that could emerge?
Fiji: dua - one
Both are Malayo-Polynesian languages - I wonder how that could emerge?
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
One can only guess.
Indonesian dua comes from Proto-Austronesian *<duSa> /dusa/.
The Fijian form is IINM /dua/. If we assume the Proto-Austronesian form *<əsa> /əça/, we habe to assume schwa deletion (>/ça/), foritition (>/da/) and diphthongization (maybe also depalatalization?) to get /dua/. Interestingly Proto-Austronesian *d>r, so there might have been a need to gain new d's?
Indonesian dua comes from Proto-Austronesian *<duSa> /dusa/.
The Fijian form is IINM /dua/. If we assume the Proto-Austronesian form *<əsa> /əça/, we habe to assume schwa deletion (>/ça/), foritition (>/da/) and diphthongization (maybe also depalatalization?) to get /dua/. Interestingly Proto-Austronesian *d>r, so there might have been a need to gain new d's?
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Indeed, the number two in Fijian is rua.Creyeditor wrote: ↑22 Feb 2018 12:50 Interestingly Proto-Austronesian *d>r, so there might have been a need to gain new d's?
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
The ACD says that it is "not clear" whether any reflex of esa/isa/asa survives in Oceanic, other than the article, and that the possible reflexes are probably morphologically complex if they're related at all. Polynesian apparently has *tasi, which has an alveolar in it but otherwise doesn't look that close to dua. The fact that the first two polynesian numbers, dua rua, rhyme, seems a little suspicious to me.Creyeditor wrote: ↑22 Feb 2018 12:50 One can only guess.
Indonesian dua comes from Proto-Austronesian *<duSa> /dusa/.
The Fijian form is IINM /dua/. If we assume the Proto-Austronesian form *<əsa> /əça/, we habe to assume schwa deletion (>/ça/), foritition (>/da/) and diphthongization (maybe also depalatalization?) to get /dua/. Interestingly Proto-Austronesian *d>r, so there might have been a need to gain new d's?
Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Why though? In German, 2 and 3 rhyme too. (zwei/drei). And yes, it causes a lot of confusion. There is an alternative form of 2, "two", that descriptively is exclusively used to distinguish 2 from 3. But I get off the point...
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Well, you just answered that question yourself, didn't you? Why do German 'zwei' and 'drei' rhyme? Because 'zwei' has been reformulated analogically in order to rhyme with 'drei'.
Well, we don't know that. But clearly 'zwei' is not regularly derived from *dwoH. There may have been some analogy from nominal and adjectival paradigms, but it's rather suspicious that the odd resulting neuter form rhymed with the next number. And then it's rather convenient that the OHG masculine form just stopped being used, replaced by the rhyming neuter form.
The point is: it's common for numbers to derive irregularly due to influence from adjacent numbers. The fact that dua and rua rhyme makes me wonder whether 'dua' has been irregularly influenced by 'rua' at some point.
Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
There are some Yiddish dialects that pronounce Tsvay as /t͡sveɪ/. See also Proto-Slavic *devętь from PIE *h₁néwn̥. Wiktionary comments: "the initial 'd' in Eastern Baltic and Slavic has sometimes been explained as dissimilation, or by alliteration to *desętь (“ten”)" . Also, Proto-Germanic *fedwōr "four" is that way, instead of the expected **kedwōr, because of the initial /f/ in PGerm word for "five".Salmoneus wrote: ↑22 Feb 2018 18:01Well, you just answered that question yourself, didn't you? Why do German 'zwei' and 'drei' rhyme? Because 'zwei' has been reformulated analogically in order to rhyme with 'drei'.
Well, we don't know that. But clearly 'zwei' is not regularly derived from *dwoH. There may have been some analogy from nominal and adjectival paradigms, but it's rather suspicious that the odd resulting neuter form rhymed with the next number. And then it's rather convenient that the OHG masculine form just stopped being used, replaced by the rhyming neuter form.
The point is: it's common for numbers to derive irregularly due to influence from adjacent numbers. The fact that dua and rua rhyme makes me wonder whether 'dua' has been irregularly influenced by 'rua' at some point.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Τυφών- Typhon (Greek mythological monster considered to be the creator of massive storms)
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Faku? Not paku?GrandPiano wrote: ↑20 Feb 2018 22:10 I guess it might have been unclear, but the unfortunate coincidence I was trying to point to was the English word that “faku” sounds like.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
"faku" would have been an intermediate stage between "paku" and "haku".Khemehekis wrote: ↑24 Feb 2018 00:34Faku? Not paku?GrandPiano wrote: ↑20 Feb 2018 22:10 I guess it might have been unclear, but the unfortunate coincidence I was trying to point to was the English word that “faku” sounds like.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Yep. Word-initial [p] became [ɸ], and [ɸ] became [h] everywhere except before /u/, which is why ふ is pronounced “fu”.shimobaatar wrote: ↑24 Feb 2018 00:42"faku" would have been an intermediate stage between "paku" and "haku".Khemehekis wrote: ↑24 Feb 2018 00:34Faku? Not paku?GrandPiano wrote: ↑20 Feb 2018 22:10 I guess it might have been unclear, but the unfortunate coincidence I was trying to point to was the English word that “faku” sounds like.