False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3024
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by sangi39 »

(moving this to the write thread [:P] )
Attic Greek: τέττᾰρες (téttares) "four"
Sheep counting*: teddera "three"

Teddera comes in some way from Brythonic *trīs, "three", (cognate with Attic Greek τρεῖς (treîs)), but no-one's entirely sure. Sheep counting systems tend to have non-multiples of 5 rhyme in pairs, with teddera followed by meddera, which ultimately derives from Brythonic *petwār, "four" (in other areas this is more clear with examples like pedder), and it's meddera that's ultimately "cognate" with τέττᾰρες

*I think mostly in some places in Cumbria, but my dad taught me tethera, and where I live it's tether. Few miles down the road and it's edder.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1765
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by All4Ɇn »

:bra: ema "rhea"
:eng: emu
User avatar
Imralu
roman
roman
Posts: 960
Joined: 17 Nov 2013 22:32

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Imralu »

All4Ɇn wrote: 27 Feb 2018 01:16 :bra: ema "rhea"
:eng: emu
That's not really a false friend unless you're Brazilian and keep accidentally calling rheas emus in English. They're quite possibly cognates too, so probably not a coincidence either.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
________
MY MUSIC | MY PLANTS
User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1765
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by All4Ɇn »

Imralu wrote: 27 Feb 2018 02:35
All4Ɇn wrote: 27 Feb 2018 01:16 :bra: ema "rhea"
:eng: emu
That's not really a false friend unless you're Brazilian and keep accidentally calling rheas emus in English. They're quite possibly cognates too, so probably not a coincidence either.
I guess I was looking too hard as to whether or not ema was derived from emu and didn't spend enough time to check and see if it was the other way around!
User avatar
Xonen
moderator
moderator
Posts: 1080
Joined: 16 May 2010 00:25

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Xonen »

One I've been meaning to mention here:

:eng: canine
:swe: kanin, :fin: kaniini 'rabbit'

These look exactly like a typical modern neo-Latin-based internationalism adapted into these languages, but nope. Wiktionary tells me the Swedish word does actually have an etymology that ultimately goes back to Latin, but not to the same word (cunǐculus 'rabbit', as opposed to canis 'dog').

Speaking of Latin and canine rabbits, someone has apparently created a Canis lepus:
Spoiler:
Image
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 3283
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 04:06

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Shemtov »

Xonen wrote: 07 Mar 2018 00:10 One I've been meaning to mention here:

:eng: canine
:swe: kanin, :fin: kaniini 'rabbit'

These look exactly like a typical modern neo-Latin-based internationalism adapted into these languages, but nope. Wiktionary tells me the Swedish word does actually have an etymology that ultimately goes back to Latin, but not to the same word (cunǐculus 'rabbit', as opposed to canis 'dog').

Speaking of Latin and canine rabbits, someone has apparently created a Canis lepus:
Spoiler:
Image
It's also related to :eng: <Cony>, which is weird, as I remember reading that it is of North Germanic stock, but maybe I was misrembering the fact that it comes from the Norman dialect of Old :fra:
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
Iyionaku
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2102
Joined: 25 May 2014 14:17

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Iyionaku »

I have a structural one: If you want to express "already" in :chn: Mandarin, you normally use 已经:

我已经有男朋友了。
Wǒ yǐjīng yǒu nánpéngyǒu le.
1SG already have boyfriend change_of_state
I already have a boyfriend.

However, if you negate this structure to:

我已经没有男朋友了。
Wǒ yǐjīng méiyǒu nánpéngyǒu le.

This normally does not mean "I don't have a boyfriend yet", as one propably would expect, but rather "I don't have a boyfriend anymore." The former would instead be:

我还没有男朋友。
Wǒ hái méiyǒu nánpéngyǒu.
1SG still not_have boyfriend
I don't have a boyfriend yet.
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 3283
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 04:06

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Shemtov »

:eng: Aryan and Arian.
Very unfortunate, given that the Witnesses were victims of the Holocaust, and they are classified by some Religious Studies experts as "Neo-Arian"
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1765
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by All4Ɇn »

:chn: 謝謝 xièxie "thank you" and 泄瀉 xièxiè "diarrhea"
User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2945
Joined: 10 Nov 2012 20:52
Location: California

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Dormouse559 »

All4Ɇn wrote: 14 Apr 2018 00:30 :chn: 謝謝 xièxie "thank you" and 泄瀉 xièxiè "diarrhea"
Diarrhea for letting us know about that.
User avatar
Lao Kou
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 5089
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Lao Kou »

All4Ɇn wrote: 14 Apr 2018 00:30:chn: 謝謝 xièxie "thank you" and 泄瀉 xièxiè "diarrhea"
And suddenly, the Japanese city of Niigata took on a whole new frightening resonance. . . [:x]

Having regained composure, of course, one realized that it was not, in fact, that character, but (潟), which means that our fair city is not 新瀉, but 新潟. We can put the hip waders away. Chalk it up to a pre-coffee senior moment. I will, however, sleep better tonight.

As for 謝謝, neutral toning that second syllable is, like, so mainland :roll: . My Taiwan dictionary still lists it as xièxiè, making your coincidence all the more unfortunate. [B)]
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1765
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by All4Ɇn »

Lao Kou wrote: 14 Apr 2018 04:07As for 謝謝, neutral toning that second syllable is, like, so mainland :roll: . My Taiwan dictionary still lists it as xièxiè, making your coincidence all the more unfortunate. [B)]
That's definitely good to hear as I almost certainly said xièxiè during my trip to China a few years back...
clawgrip
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2257
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 07:33
Location: Tokyo

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by clawgrip »

Japanese has stuff like this too since it took Chinese vocabulary but ignored the tones.
So we have things like 校門 kōmon "school gate" and 肛門 kōmon "anus" (both gates, of different sorts).

Also since you're talking about diarrhoea, the name Gary gets Japanesified as Geirii, even though e.g. Mary is Merii, probably in part to avoid it sounding like 下痢 geri "diarrhoea".
Iyionaku
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2102
Joined: 25 May 2014 14:17

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Iyionaku »

All4Ɇn wrote: 14 Apr 2018 06:39
Lao Kou wrote: 14 Apr 2018 04:07As for 謝謝, neutral toning that second syllable is, like, so mainland :roll: . My Taiwan dictionary still lists it as xièxiè, making your coincidence all the more unfortunate. [B)]
That's definitely good to hear as I almost certainly said xièxiè during my trip to China a few years back...
When I started learning Chinese (about eight months ago), I always was like "oh, cool, the last syllable is 5th tone, that means I don't have to learn it!"

Well yeah, that was obviously a misconception. Now I'm stuck with a bunch of words I pronounce wrongly with 4th tone although they are 5th tone. So yes, chances are high that I wish random Chinese people to get diarrhea if they show me the way. [xP]
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
User avatar
Vlürch
greek
greek
Posts: 452
Joined: 09 Mar 2016 21:19
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Vlürch »

Iyionaku wrote: 18 Apr 2018 14:27So yes, chances are high that I wish random Chinese people to get diarrhea if they show me the way. [xP]
The way? Da wae?

Sorry, I just can't not think of that every time I see/hear the words "the way".
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 3283
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 04:06

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Shemtov »

Iyionaku wrote: 18 Apr 2018 14:27 So yes, chances are high that I wish random Chinese people to get diarrhea if they show me the way. [xP]
You know that the Dao De Jing can probably be found at your Library, there's no need to ask random Chinese people about it [:P]
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
User avatar
Lao Kou
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 5089
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Lao Kou »

Iyionaku wrote: 18 Apr 2018 14:27
All4Ɇn wrote: 14 Apr 2018 06:39
Lao Kou wrote: 14 Apr 2018 04:07As for 謝謝, neutral toning that second syllable is, like, so mainland :roll: . My Taiwan dictionary still lists it as xièxiè, making your coincidence all the more unfortunate. [B)]
That's definitely good to hear as I almost certainly said xièxiè during my trip to China a few years back...
When I started learning Chinese (about eight months ago), I always was like "oh, cool, the last syllable is 5th tone, that means I don't have to learn it!"

Well yeah, that was obviously a misconception. Now I'm stuck with a bunch of words I pronounce wrongly with 4th tone although they are 5th tone. So yes, chances are high that I wish random Chinese people to get diarrhea if they show me the way. [xP]
To be clear, (泄瀉 xièxiè) is hardly a common way of expressing the concept of "diarrhea", so even if your Chinese pronunciation is perfectly horrid, no sane person is going to construe your well-intentioned expression of courtoisie as "May your bowels evacuate like Vesuvius".

Too, I'm scarcely on a crusade or anything, but I find the term "5th tone" an unfortunate term in Mandarin nomenclature. I would kind of consider it as the tonal equivalent of a schwa. Is pronouncing "different" with two syllables or three "right" or "wrong"? Answers will vary. Perhaps for some, a three-syllable "different" will sound affected or pretentious. I think this is also so for not neutral-toning. Not neutralizing 子 would sound really over the top most of the time, but other cases? I'm not sure there's a "right" or "wrong". Just listen to what the locals are doing and play along.
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
User avatar
ixals
sinic
sinic
Posts: 446
Joined: 28 Jul 2015 18:43

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by ixals »

:fra: sellerie 'saddlery'
:deu: Sellerie 'celery'

Just stumbled upon this one and thought it was kind of funny that the Germanisation of the French loan 'céleri' is written the same as another French word [:D]
Native: :deu:
Learning: :gbr:, :chn:, :tur:, :fra:

Zhér·dûn a tonal Germanic conlang

old stuff: Цiски | Noattȯč | Tungōnis Vīdīnōs
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 3283
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 04:06

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Shemtov »

:pol: <Być> /bɨt͡ɕ/ "To be" :eng: <Bitch>
:eng: Retardation" "Offensive Term for Cognitive Handicap" "Literary device involving the slowing of the pace of a work of fiction for dramatic effect".
I found this in Greek and Roman Classical Literature class, and after the professor introduced the literary device as a non-offensive term said "We are skipping chapters VIII-XI of the Aeneid because they are retarded."
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
Khemehekis
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3883
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 09:36
Location: California über alles

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Khemehekis »

Shemtov wrote: 10 May 2018 03:02 :eng: Retardation" "Offensive Term for Cognitive Handicap" "Literary device involving the slowing of the pace of a work of fiction for dramatic effect".
I found this in Greek and Roman Classical Literature class, and after the professor introduced the literary device as a non-offensive term said "We are skipping chapters VIII-XI of the Aeneid because they are retarded."
To my understanding, these are etymologically related. The underlying meaning of "retard" is "to slow down". So "mentally retarded" means "slowed down mentally". See, for instance, flame retardant.
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Post Reply