Maybe a better way to say it than "syllable-final" would be "in the coda of a syllable", since Nacht, nichts, Dachs, etc. are permissible words in German.
False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
/x/ is in the coda in all three of those words.Khemehekis wrote: ↑04 Sep 2018 01:30Maybe a better way to say it than "syllable-final" would be "in the coda of a syllable", since Nacht, nichts, Dachs, etc. are permissible words in German.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Yes.shimobaatar wrote: ↑04 Sep 2018 02:23/x/ is in the coda in all three of those words.Khemehekis wrote: ↑04 Sep 2018 01:30Maybe a better way to say it than "syllable-final" would be "in the coda of a syllable", since Nacht, nichts, Dachs, etc. are permissible words in German.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
I think there are a tiny number of exceptions , such as Ache, Kuchen, etc, which have [x] and is a unit rather than e.g. ach + /-e/. Kuchen is perhaps a loan but a very early one. Wiktionary says it's native.
Last edited by Pabappa on 04 Sep 2018 02:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Uh… oh, wow, I completely misread what you'd written. Sorry. Just ignore my last post, please.Khemehekis wrote: ↑04 Sep 2018 02:39Yes.shimobaatar wrote: ↑04 Sep 2018 02:23/x/ is in the coda in all three of those words.Khemehekis wrote: ↑04 Sep 2018 01:30Maybe a better way to say it than "syllable-final" would be "in the coda of a syllable", since Nacht, nichts, Dachs, etc. are permissible words in German.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Knochen?
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31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Khemehekis wrote: ↑04 Sep 2018 02:39PROGRESAL EUROPANshimobaatar wrote: ↑04 Sep 2018 02:23/x/ is in the coda in all three of those words.Khemehekis wrote: ↑04 Sep 2018 01:30Maybe a better way to say it than "syllable-final" would be "in the coda of a syllable", since Nacht, nichts, Dachs, etc. are permissible words in German.
'Nichts' ha no /x/, ha /ç/. Und in el umgangssprache wird das word /niks/ prononcert. 'Dachs' doesnt have /x/ either, it is /daks/... et veraiment, ny a seulement ache et kuchen, ai buche, kachel, jauche, etc. Meibi se can decir ki la regla is valida si se consider -e, -el, -en, -er finales como terminaciones, mesme ki ellos ha non una funccion de sufijos, así ki se consider esas palabras como ach-e, kuch-en, kach-el, jauch-e, etc
ENGLISH
'Nichts' doesnt have /x/, it has /ç/. And in coloquial language the word is pronounced /niks/. Dachs doesnt have /x/ either, it is /daks/... and indeed, there isnt only acha and kuchen, there is buche, kachel, jauche, etc. Maybe one could say that the rule is valid if we consider final -e, -el, -en, -er as endings, even if they dont have the function of suffixes, so we'd consider these words as ach-e, kuch-en, kach-el, jauch-e, etc
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
REFORMADU
Im portugalian: cu = ass
ENGLISH
In portuguese: cu = ass
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Isn't [ç] an allophone of /x/?
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Not everybody here knows that the former means 'cow' and the latter 'dog'.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
It is. The rule is not "no /x/ within a word" but "no /x/ in syllable onsets".
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
I know what "Kuh" means, but I don't speak any Celtic languages. As a result, I was thinking maybe the Gaelic word "cú" meant cow, and thought for a while that I was on the false cognates thread.WeepingElf wrote: ↑04 Sep 2018 19:20Not everybody here knows that the former means 'cow' and the latter 'dog'.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
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31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
If [ç] is an allophone of /x/, then how come we have [ç] at the ends of words, like lustig and zwanzig, where [x] would also be possible? There's nothing to prevent German from having words like lustich or zwanzich, AFAIK.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Disclaimer: I don't know if words like lustig are analyzed phonemically as /ˈlʊstɪx/ or as /ˈlʊstɪg/. In other words, I don't know whether the [ç] here is thought of as an allophone of /g/ having undergone devoicing, lenition, and palatalization, or if the <-g> here is thought of as representing /x/. Also, I am not a native German speaker, and I have not actively studied the language for years now.Khemehekis wrote: ↑05 Sep 2018 02:11If [ç] is an allophone of /x/, then how come we have [ç] at the ends of words, like lustig and zwanzig, where [x] would also be possible? There's nothing to prevent German from having words like lustich or zwanzich, AFAIK.
With that out of the way:
Why would a hypothetical word lustich not be pronounced identically to lustig? [x] and [ç] can both occur word-finally, but what matters, if I remember correctly, is the preceding sound. Although I'm sure the reality of the situation is more nuanced, put simply, /x/ is realized as [ç] after front vowels (and maybe also after consonants?)*. So, if I'm not mistaken, lustich /ˈlʊstɪx/ would be realized as [ˈlʊstɪç], just like lustig.
Hopefully I haven't completely misread what you've posted again.
*Actually, if I remember correctly, and the phoneme is [x] after non-front vowels and [ç] after front vowels and consonants (in other words, "elsewhere"), then wouldn't it make more sense to represent the phoneme as /ç/? Again, I don't know what the convention is.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
You haven't misread my post.shimobaatar wrote: ↑05 Sep 2018 02:49Disclaimer: I don't know if words like lustig are analyzed phonemically as /ˈlʊstɪx/ or as /ˈlʊstɪg/. In other words, I don't know whether the [ç] here is thought of as an allophone of /g/ having undergone devoicing, lenition, and palatalization, or if the <-g> here is thought of as representing /x/. Also, I am not a native German speaker, and I have not actively studied the language for years now.Khemehekis wrote: ↑05 Sep 2018 02:11 If [ç] is an allophone of /x/, then how come we have [ç] at the ends of words, like lustig and zwanzig, where [x] would also be possible? There's nothing to prevent German from having words like lustich or zwanzich, AFAIK.
With that out of the way:
Why would a hypothetical word lustich not be pronounced identically to lustig? [x] and [ç] can both occur word-finally, but what matters, if I remember correctly, is the preceding sound. Although I'm sure the reality of the situation is more nuanced, put simply, /x/ is realized as [ç] after front vowels (and maybe also after consonants?)*. So, if I'm not mistaken, lustich /ˈlʊstɪx/ would be realized as [ˈlʊstɪç], just like lustig.
Hopefully I haven't completely misread what you've posted again.
*Actually, if I remember correctly, and the phoneme is [x] after non-front vowels and [ç] after front vowels and consonants (in other words, "elsewhere"), then wouldn't it make more sense to represent the phoneme as /ç/? Again, I don't know what the convention is.
Is the ch/g phoneme [ç] after all front vowels? Like ich or nicht? I wasn't aware of such a rule. Maybe you're right about that. And if it's true that it's [ç] after consonants (it's [ç] in Mädchen -- just checked Wiktionary), then maybe you're onto something with the phoneme being /ç/ instead of /x/.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
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31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
I'm pretty sure. Yeah, at least in the standard variety I learned (Hochdeutsch), ich and nicht are [ɪç] and [nɪçt]. [ç] is even referred to in German as the "ich-Laut", as opposed to the "ach-Laut", [x]. Regarding [ç] occurring after consonants, the word I was thinking of was manchmal "sometimes" [ˈmançmaːl]. I'm pretty sure that <ch> is always [ç] in the diminutive suffix <-chen>, but maybe that's just because it often, if not always, comes after a consonant? I can't think of any words where <-chen> is affixed after a vowel, but if there are any, <-chen> causes umlaut, so wouldn't the preceding vowel become front anyway, leading to the realization of the <ch> as [ç]?Khemehekis wrote: ↑05 Sep 2018 02:56 Is the ch/g phoneme [ç] after all front vowels? Like ich or nicht? I wasn't aware of such a rule. Maybe you're right about that. And if it's true that it's [ç] after consonants (it's [ç] in Mädchen -- just checked Wiktionary), then maybe you're onto something with the phoneme being /ç/ instead of /x/.
Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
i think that rule is begininng to break down. Wikipedia article http://enwp.org/ich-laut says that Frauchen is a word, which has the suffix after a vowel, pronounced with /ç/, and yet does not trigger umlaut. If this pattern is consdiered standard, one can also create the word Kuhchen, diminutive of Kuh, which would form a minimal pair with Kuchen "cake", where the -chen is part of the root. This would mean that both /ç/ and /x/ are phonemic, though the contrast would be very marginal. Loans are probably a better pillar to build a claim of phonemic /ç/ vs /x/ on.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
So that's what "ach-laut" and "ich-laut" are referring to!shimobaatar wrote: ↑05 Sep 2018 03:09I'm pretty sure. Yeah, at least in the standard variety I learned (Hochdeutsch), ich and nicht are [ɪç] and [nɪçt]. [ç] is even referred to in German as the "ich-Laut", as opposed to the "ach-Laut", [x]. Regarding [ç] occurring after consonants, the word I was thinking of was manchmal "sometimes" [ˈmançmaːl]. I'm pretty sure that <ch> is always [ç] in the diminutive suffix <-chen>, but maybe that's just because it often, if not always, comes after a consonant? I can't think of any words where <-chen> is affixed after a vowel, but if there are any, <-chen> causes umlaut, so wouldn't the preceding vowel become front anyway, leading to the realization of the <ch> as [ç]?Khemehekis wrote: ↑05 Sep 2018 02:56 Is the ch/g phoneme [ç] after all front vowels? Like ich or nicht? I wasn't aware of such a rule. Maybe you're right about that. And if it's true that it's [ç] after consonants (it's [ç] in Mädchen -- just checked Wiktionary), then maybe you're onto something with the phoneme being /ç/ instead of /x/.
"Munch" and "durch" also come to mind. I couldn't find the pronunciation of the surname Munch, but Wiktionary says durch is with [ç], so you're probably right.
As for words with -chen, you have an excellent point about -chen causing umlaut. I can't think of any vowel+chen words either. Aachen and Knochen must not be derived from -chen, or else they'd be Äachen and Knöchen.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
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31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
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31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Interesting. I guess [ç] is probably remaining, even when umlaut does not occur, through analogy with the pronunciation of the majority of the words ending in <-chen>? I Googled Kuhchen, and it appears to be attested. At the very least, it has an entry on the German Wiktionary. Regarding loanwords, I didn't even consider those, since this discussion was, at least originally, about native vocabulary, if I'm not mistaken? Not to say that that's an invalid point, of course.Pabappa wrote: ↑05 Sep 2018 03:15 i think that rule is begininng to break down. Wikipedia article http://enwp.org/ich-laut says that Frauchen is a word, which has the suffix after a vowel, pronounced with /ç/, and yet does not trigger umlaut. If this pattern is consdiered standard, one can also create the word Kuhchen, diminutive of Kuh, which would form a minimal pair with Kuchen "cake", where the -chen is part of the root. This would mean that both /ç/ and /x/ are phonemic, though the contrast would be very marginal. Loans are probably a better pillar to build a claim of phonemic /ç/ vs /x/ on.
That's very interesting about durch. I was actually just wondering whether [ɐ̯] would be considered a non-front vowel or a consonant (as an allophone of /ʁ/) in terms of conditioning either [ç] or [x]. I guess it's considered a consonant, although my faulty L2 intuition makes me want to read it as [dʊɐ̯x].Khemehekis wrote: ↑05 Sep 2018 03:18 "Munch" and "durch" also come to mind. I couldn't find the pronunciation of the surname Munch, but Wiktionary says durch is with [ç], so you're probably right.
As for words with -chen, you have an excellent point about -chen causing umlaut. I can't think of any vowel+chen words either. Aachen and Knochen must not be derived from -chen, or else they'd be Äachen and Knöchen.
Well, see above for what Pabappa said regarding umlaut. Even so, I am pretty sure that the <-chen> in Aachen and Knochen is a part of those words' roots.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
The full pronunciations given on Wiktionary are:
IPA (key): /dʊʁç/, /dʊɐ̯ç/ (standard)
IPA (key): /dʊɐ̯x/, /dʊɪ̯ç/ (regionally)
Note that in standard German, even the [ɐ̯] pronunciation takes [ç]! [dʊɐ̯x] is acceptable regionally though (not sure which regions).
IPA (key): /dʊʁç/, /dʊɐ̯ç/ (standard)
IPA (key): /dʊɐ̯x/, /dʊɪ̯ç/ (regionally)
Note that in standard German, even the [ɐ̯] pronunciation takes [ç]! [dʊɐ̯x] is acceptable regionally though (not sure which regions).
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!