Clicking future.

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DV82LECM
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Clicking future.

Post by DV82LECM »

A simple question.

Let's not for one second assume that Clicks are a protosound, having traveled with these languages for a long time (for some reason), but where these languages are within a strange reclustering of classic sounds, demonstrating a very bizarre branch of ancient human speech, how much longer from the current day could the click sounds continue (maybe even having to consider the cul-du-sac of a land mass South Africa is)?
𖥑𖧨𖣫𖦺𖣦𖢋𖤼𖥃𖣔𖣋𖢅𖡹𖡨𖡶𖡦𖡧𖡚𖠨
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Creyeditor
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by Creyeditor »

Very much longer, considering that a) Clicks seem to be eager to spreading, as you can see in several Bantu languages that acquired clicks, as well as modern urban varities that feature clicks and b) that some of the most widely spoken languages (e.g. isiXhosa and isiZulu) in SA have clicks.
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DV82LECM
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by DV82LECM »

That was, sort of, what I had considered. I really would like to know if other languages could acquire them over tens of thousands of years.
𖥑𖧨𖣫𖦺𖣦𖢋𖤼𖥃𖣔𖣋𖢅𖡹𖡨𖡶𖡦𖡧𖡚𖠨
GrandPiano
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by GrandPiano »

Clicks are consonants just like any other. There's nothing inherently bizarre about them, other than that they use a different airstream mechanism than other consonants and tend to be used as interjections in languages that don't have them as phonemes. They could certainly appear in languages outside of Africa at any time, they just haven't yet because it's very rare for a language to obtain them independently through sound changes (and in fact, many of the African languages that have them obtained them through borrowing).
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Ahzoh
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by Ahzoh »

GrandPiano wrote:Clicks are consonants just like any other. There's nothing inherently bizarre about them, other than that they use a different airstream mechanism than other consonants and tend to be used as interjections in languages that don't have them as phonemes. They could certainly appear in languages outside of Africa at any time, they just haven't yet because it's very rare for a language to obtain them independently through sound changes (and in fact, many of the African languages that have them obtained them through borrowing).
How does one even obtain them through sound changes..?
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by MrKrov »

Wikipedia says
How they arose is not known, but it is generally assumed that they developed from sequences of non-click consonants, as they are found allophonically for doubly articulated consonants in West Africa (Ladefoged 1968), where /tk/ sequences overlap at word boundaries in German (Fuchs 2007), and for the sequence /mw/ in Ndau and Tonga.
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Isfendil
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by Isfendil »

Ahzoh wrote:
GrandPiano wrote:Clicks are consonants just like any other. There's nothing inherently bizarre about them, other than that they use a different airstream mechanism than other consonants and tend to be used as interjections in languages that don't have them as phonemes. They could certainly appear in languages outside of Africa at any time, they just haven't yet because it's very rare for a language to obtain them independently through sound changes (and in fact, many of the African languages that have them obtained them through borrowing).
How does one even obtain them through sound changes..?
Reports of consonant clusters turning into weak clicks in Germany.
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Lao Kou
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by Lao Kou »

If clicks come to Europe, conlangers won't want to do them anymore. (And that would be fine by me. [;)] )
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Ahzoh
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by Ahzoh »

I hate clicks and none of my Conlangs are considered African unless I have them, even if I adopt phonologies typical of African languages like Swahili and Zulu.
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DesEsseintes
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by DesEsseintes »

Clicks certainly seem to evoke strong feelings in the conlanging community. I've encountered quite a few people who say they hate clicks. The only other linguistic feature I've seen so many people express a dislike for is lexical tone beyond a two-tone system. I can only infer that this dislike stems from people finding these features too alien.
I love both clicks and tone... Look how mature and superior I am!

It also seems to be a prevailing opinion that if you're going to do clicks realistically, your phonology should be modelled on the African languages that have clicks. I've never really understood why conlangers would want to restrict themselves so. Surely the point of conlanging is to try out new combinations of features and developing them until they work in harmony.

But I digress...
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DesEsseintes
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by DesEsseintes »

Ahzoh wrote:...none of my Conlangs are considered African unless I have them, even if I adopt phonologies typical of African languages like Swahili and Zulu.
By whom?
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Ahzoh
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by Ahzoh »

DesEsseintes wrote:Clicks certainly seem to evoke strong feelings in the conlanging community. I've encountered quite a few people who say they hate clicks. The only other linguistic feature I've seen so many people express a dislike for is lexical tone beyond a two-tone system. I can only infer that this dislike stems from people finding these features too alien.
I love both clicks and tone... Look how mature and superior I am!

It also seems to be a prevailing opinion that if you're going to do clicks realistically, your phonology should be modelled on the African languages that have clicks. I've never really understood why conlangers would want to restrict themselves so. Surely the point of conlanging is to try out new combinations of features and developing them until they work in harmony.

But I digress...
Slavic phonology with palatalized clicks and North American grammar
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DesEsseintes
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by DesEsseintes »

Ahzoh wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:Clicks certainly seem to evoke strong feelings in the conlanging community. I've encountered quite a few people who say they hate clicks. The only other linguistic feature I've seen so many people express a dislike for is lexical tone beyond a two-tone system. I can only infer that this dislike stems from people finding these features too alien.
I love both clicks and tone... Look how mature and superior I am!

It also seems to be a prevailing opinion that if you're going to do clicks realistically, your phonology should be modelled on the African languages that have clicks. I've never really understood why conlangers would want to restrict themselves so. Surely the point of conlanging is to try out new combinations of features and developing them until they work in harmony.

But I digress...
Slavic phonology with palatalized clicks and North American grammar
Now you're talking! [:D]
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Ahzoh
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by Ahzoh »

There, Slavic phonology with clicks:
/a e ẽ: i o õ: u/<a e ę i o ǫ u>

/m n nʲ/<m n nj>
/p b t tʲ d dʲ k kʲ g kʲ gʲ /<p b t tj d dj k kj g gj>
/! !ʲ ʞ ʞʲ/<! !j ʞ ʞj>
/f~ʍ v~w s z ʃ ʒ x xʲ/<f v s z sj zj x xj>
/t͡s d͡z t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/<c dz cj dzj>
/l lʲ r rʲ j/<l lj r rj j>

Tvo!ę nǫsj dinu.
/two!ʲẽ: nõ:ʃ dʲinu/
tvo!-ę n-ǫsj dinu
something-NOM.MASC.SG 3.PRES-die always
Something always dies.
Spoiler:
DesEsseintes wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:...none of my Conlangs are considered African unless I have them, even if I adopt phonologies typical of African languages like Swahili and Zulu.
By whom?
shimobaatar wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:My new African-like language, Ngu-Cam [ŋu qam):
/a e i o u/<a e i o u>
/a: e: i: o: u:/<ā ē ī ō ū>
Phonemic pitch accent

/m n ŋ ŋʷ/<m n ng nw>
/p p’ b t t’ d k k’ g kʷ k’ʷ gʷ q q’ ʔ/<p ṗ b t ṭ d k ḳ g kw ḳw gw c ċ q>
/f v s z x ɣ xʷ~ʍ ɣʷ~w/<f v s z x j wh w>
/t͡s t͡s’ k͡x k͡x’/<tz ṭz kg ḳg>
/l r j/<l r y>
I can't say it looks particularly African to me, but I quite like it! I like the way you're romanizing the ejectives in particular.
It's basically Igbo with some different consonants and vowels.
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Lao Kou
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by Lao Kou »

DesEsseintes wrote:I can only infer that this dislike stems from people finding these features too alien.
I love both clicks and tone...Look how mature and superior I am!
Well, yes. But let's not forget that naturalism thang. After you've done the 97 phonemes thing, the click thing, and the triconsonantal stem thing (less so the tonal thing), what's left? Pooh-poohing someone else's lang for a lack of naturalism.
It also seems to be a prevailing opinion that if you're going to do clicks realistically, your phonology should be modelled on the African languages that have clicks. I've never really understood why conlangers would want to restrict themselves so.
Naturalism/realism. Can you imagine a lang with clicks, front rounded vowels, and a [θ]? [O.O] (I'd like to.) People would rather gnaw and make chum of their right testicle than get the monicker "not naturalistic/realistic"
Surely the point of conlanging is to try out new combinations of features and developing them until they work in harmony.
It may be a point, but not the point. Some of us conlang to discover a mode of expression that we may not know amidst the natlangs. And some of us who are sane (really we are [B)] ) (i.e. I haven't deeded my house to a cat named Mr. Buttons (neither the house nor the cat)) may hear people speaking to us over the wall that you would call fiction. [xD]

But I digress...
Your digressions are always fruitful, Des. [:)]
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DesEsseintes
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by DesEsseintes »

Lao Kou wrote:After you've done the 97 phonemes thing, the click thing, and the triconsonantal stem thing (less so the tonal thing), what's left? Pooh-poohing someone else's lang for a lack of naturalism.

Plenty of things, if one has the imagination.
Can you imagine a lang with clicks, front rounded vowels, and a [θ]? (I'd like to.) People would rather gnaw and make chum of their right testicle than get the monicker "not naturalistic/realistic".

This is perhaps the crux of the matter. There is absolutely nothing wrong with combining clicks, front rounded vowels and interdental fricatives (preferably syllabic) in a lang if they belong to consistent series with interesting and logical distributions accompanied by some sleek morfofo to ensure a smooth operation. I would say that if you cannot come up with a phonology to make these all work, there is still something to be learnt from conlanging.

What's more, I now have an idea for an Áánene lang with exactly that combination of features.
Your digressions are always fruitful, Des.
Indeed.
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Adarain
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by Adarain »

DesEsseintes wrote:Clicks certainly seem to evoke strong feelings in the conlanging community. I've encountered quite a few people who say they hate clicks. The only other linguistic feature I've seen so many people express a dislike for is lexical tone beyond a two-tone system. I can only infer that this dislike stems from people finding these features too alien.
I actually feel like the reason might simply be that the moment you include one of those, a good-looking shallow orthography becomes basically impossible. Of course my solution that is to simply not make shallow orthographies and supplement my stuff with IPA as needed.
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
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Lambuzhao
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by Lambuzhao »

Hmmmm.... a whistled language with (trilled) clicks -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0CIRCjoICA
(On a side note, Francisco Correa's Spanish sounds awfully Caribbean. I recall my Dialectologia prof teaching us how the Caribbean was influenced by the arrival of Andalusian and Canarian seamen, but wow. I can really hear it with the heavily-aspirated coda /s/ deletions {e.g. /pweh/ 'pues'} , and his rhotacizing of /l/ {/rjenda/ = 'leyenda'} Unexpected neat-O-ness! )
+
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkGVETBCUe8
+
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFkSRAj0rxU
=
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2pjUlp2Cy0

???
:wat:
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elemtilas
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by elemtilas »

Lao Kou wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:I can only infer that this dislike stems from people finding these features too alien.
I love both clicks and tone...Look how mature and superior I am!
Well, yes. But let's not forget that naturalism thang. After you've done the 97 phonemes thing, the click thing, and the triconsonantal stem thing (less so the tonal thing), what's left? Pooh-poohing someone else's lang for a lack of naturalism.
Mgmg. I wonder who these "people" are... They are most vexing!
It also seems to be a prevailing opinion that if you're going to do clicks realistically, your phonology should be modelled on the African languages that have clicks. I've never really understood why conlangers would want to restrict themselves so.
Naturalism/realism. Can you imagine a lang with clicks, front rounded vowels, and a [θ]? [O.O] (I'd like to.) People would rather gnaw and make chum of their right testicle than get the monicker "not naturalistic/realistic"
Queranaran has [y], three clicks, a clack and þ. And they get used, too. Sometimes a bit oddly, but there we are.

I've also never really cared all that much whether these "people" think it's realistic or not. I mean, if that floats yer boat, then more power to you! But as Capt. Smith famously quipped, the same water as floats the boat also sinks it if you take my meaning.
Surely the point of conlanging is to try out new combinations of features and developing them until they work in harmony.
It may be a point, but not the point. Some of us conlang to discover a mode of expression that we may not know amidst the natlangs. And some of us who are sane (really we are [B)] ) (i.e. I haven't deeded my house to a cat named Mr. Buttons (neither the house nor the cat)) may hear people speaking to us over the wall that you would call fiction. [xD]
Right. I mought argue that trying out new combinations and so forth as the point of glossopoesy is de rigeur for the more engelangy among us.

But I digress...
Your digressions are always fruitful, Des. [:)][/quote]

For several definitions of fruit!
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Re: Clicking future.

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

Ahzoh wrote:There, Slavic phonology with clicks:
/a e ẽ: i o õ: u/<a e ę i o ǫ u>

/m n nʲ/<m n nj>
/p b t tʲ d dʲ k kʲ g kʲ gʲ /<p b t tj d dj k kj g gj>
/! !ʲ ʞ ʞʲ/<! !j ʞ ʞj>
/f~ʍ v~w s z ʃ ʒ x xʲ/<f v s z sj zj x xj>
/t͡s d͡z t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/<c dz cj dzj>
/l lʲ r rʲ j/<l lj r rj j>

Tvo!ę nǫsj dinu.
/two!ʲẽ: nõ:ʃ dʲinu/
tvo!-ę n-ǫsj dinu
something-NOM.MASC.SG 3.PRES-die always
Something always dies.
Velar clicks are physiologically impossible tho (they retired the IPA symbol since they can't exist)

EDIT: Apparently back-released velar clicks are a thing, never mind
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