What IS natural?

[Lao Kou]

Perhaps. The reliance on checking-in with the conlanging community about attested features, lest one's conlang be monikered "unnaturalistic", can get a little tiresome. And I wonder if peer pressure (particularly of the Internet variety) is the most positive influence on any creative endeavor.

I rely a lot on the ANADEW school of naturalism. As long as something feels plausible, I don't worry that much about whether I have a ready precedent because chances are some natlang has already done the same thing and taken it a step farther.

Hurray for ANADEW! If you can imagine it, given the human linguistico-psychological make-up, it's probably been done out there somewhere in the earthly linguosphere. And try to actually speak it -- practicality will whittle away at over-cleverness and precious artifice. (No /p/'s or /g/'s are not a big concern for me. Just make a sentence, for Heaven's sake!) Of course, if it's meant to be spoken by ants on Neptune, all bets are off, though I doubt I'd follow a thread about mandible phonemes in zero-gravity (well, maybe I would).

[Lambuzhao]

Hurray for ANADEW! If you can imagine it, given the human linguistico-psychological make-up, it's probably been done out there somewhere in the earthly linguosphere.

[/spoiler]
Yup.

And try to actually speak it -- practicality will whittle away at over-cleverness and precious artifice. (No /p/'s or /g/'s are not a big concern for me. Just make a sentence, for Heaven's sake!) Of course, if it's meant to be spoken by ants on Neptune, all bets are off, though I doubt I'd follow a thread about mandible phonemes in zero-gravity (well, maybe I would).

Yes. This. YES.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jgv6BS5jP4
Preach, Brother~Auntie Kou! Preach!

If someone the creativity, intelligence, wit, and sticktoitiveness to come up with a detailed "Here's How To" Phonology of Neptunian Antspeak, but that selfsame someone, at some point, doesn't even make a half-hearted recording with the thickest Terran humanoid accent of an actual utterance, then, I'm sorry, they're cheating. That person is George Lucas v 2.0. The ants might as well be deafly marching to the phonologically mutemost version of "Eetcha nyub nyub". So CREATE! PRODUCE! FASHION & SHAPE EVEN!
BUT GIVE YOUR CREATION A TEST-DRIVE

HOW NOT

Don't make me quote Lord Byron on you all.

And now my rant is done.

[Lambuzhao]

I don't know if this can be said in all sanity, but, in the infinity of possible universes, most conlangs ARE natural.


Somewhere and somewhen, your conlang agschully EXISTS.


And there may be an infinity of universal bubbles wherein and whenin your conlang has done/is doing/is about to be doing absolutely fine.


But still, seriously, make us an Audacity, Soundcloud, TTS-hijacked, or tape-recording of some of it. 3-4 sentences is fine.

[Frislander]

If the elephant in the room is the ZBB, I haven't been there in quite a while, so I don't know if it's gotten any more civil. And the incivility there has become a cliché, which may or may not not be fair.

I don't think it's that fair now, though you do still get the odd trollish thing every now and then. Mind you, there are fewer conlangs posted there now, which may be part of the reason. We managed to hold a thread on the EU referendum without it going up in flames, which is something.

Back on point: I have never found the way you express yourself here to be ill-tempered or ill-mannered.

We love you Des!

[Lao Kou]

Preach, Brother~Auntie Kou! Preach!

The notion of my being anybody's Brother~Auntie Kou just delights me giddy. But I did not mean to preach -- I guess I was in a temper.

FASHION & SHAPE EVEN!

Who knew that Snagglepuss conlanged? Infixes, stage left!

Don't make me quote Lord Byron on you all.

At the risk of showcasing my own yawning ignorance, I don't know to what this refers.

We managed to hold a thread on the EU referendum without it going up in flames, which is something.

That really is something, in any forum. Maybe I should go back and have a look-see.

Back on point: I have never found the way you express yourself here to be ill-tempered or ill-mannered.

We love you Des!

We do.

I don't know if this can be said in all sanity, but, in the infinity of possible universes, most conlangs ARE natural.


Somewhere and somewhen, your conlang agschully EXISTS.


And there may be an infinity of universal bubbles wherein and whenin your conlang has done/is doing/is about to be doing absolutely fine.

Oh Heavens, yes. I have no wish to be carted off with a diagnosis of mental illness. And I think we've touched on this before. The idea that one's lang exists here AND there, wherever there is, is simply delicious.

[Frislander]

We managed to hold a thread on the EU referendum without it going up in flames, which is something.

That really is something, in any forum. Maybe I should go back and have a look-see.

Unfortunately it was in the Ephemera section and was clipped long ago, but I know it went well because I was the guy who started it.

[Lao Kou]

Unfortunately it was in the Ephemera section and was clipped long ago, but I know it went well because I was the guy who started it.

That is unfortunate, but I meant that I should perhaps check out afresh the vibe at the ZBB, not its foray into EU politics.

[Lambuzhao]

Who knew that Snagglepuss conlanged? Infixes, stage left!

Who else but you.

Don't make me quote Lord Byron on you all.

At the risk of showcasing my own yawning ignorance, I don't know to what this refers.

Soitenly.


Saturday May 8 1982 (first entry of my next to oldest diary):

Tis to create, and in creating live A being more intense, that we endow With form our fancy, gaining as we give The life we image

ex libris Childe Harold's Pilgrimage Canto III, Stanza 6, lines 46-49
My sis wrote that by way of a dedication. About ten yaahren later, I wolde gladly lerne its corollary:

Biting my truant pen, beating myself for spite,. "Fool," said my Muse to me, "look in thy heart, and write."

Philip Sydney - Astrophil and Stella

Spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M9JE9R9ld4

[DV82LECM]

I don't know if this can be said in all sanity, but, in the infinity of possible universes, most conlangs ARE natural.


Somewhere and somewhen, your conlang agschully EXISTS.


And there may be an infinity of universal bubbles wherein and whenin your conlang has done/is doing/is about to be doing absolutely fine.


But still, seriously, make us an Audacity, Soundcloud, TTS-hijacked, or tape-recording of some of it. 3-4 sentences is fine.

Oooooo. I would adore to cross into the parallel where my language, Snafu, is spoken. I gotta get more ideas for words. MHA!

[DesEsseintes]

Back on point: I have never found the way you express yourself here to be ill-tempered or ill-mannered.

We love you Des!

We do.

Aw, you guys!

[Salmoneus]

And try to actually speak it -- practicality will whittle away at over-cleverness and precious artifice. (No /p/'s or /g/'s are not a big concern for me. Just make a sentence, for Heaven's sake!)

Preach, Brother~Auntie Kou! Preach!

If someone the creativity, intelligence, wit, and sticktoitiveness to come up with a detailed "Here's How To" Phonology of Neptunian Antspeak, but that selfsame someone, at some point, doesn't even make a half-hearted recording with the thickest Terran humanoid accent of an actual utterance, then, I'm sorry, they're cheating. That person is George Lucas v 2.0. The ants might as well be deafly marching to the phonologically mutemost version of "Eetcha nyub nyub". So CREATE! PRODUCE! FASHION & SHAPE EVEN!
BUT GIVE YOUR CREATION A TEST-DRIVE

HOW NOT

Don't make me quote Lord Byron on you all.

We do not conlang to serve you or to please you. Different people conlang for different reasons, and haranguing them for not doing things precisely the way you do them is petty and unpleasant.
Many of us are interested in naturalism.
Many of us do not have the faintest interest in making youtube videos, audacity files, etc, just so that you don't have to read the IPA.

If that's what you want to do, then fine, but leave the rest of us the fuck alone, OK? I don't need people screaming in my face because I'm doing my hobby 'wrong'.

[Znex]

We do not conlang to serve you or to please you. Different people conlang for different reasons, and haranguing them for not doing things precisely the way you do them is petty and unpleasant.
Many of us are interested in naturalism.
Many of us do not have the faintest interest in making youtube videos, audacity files, etc, just so that you don't have to read the IPA.

If that's what you want to do, then fine, but leave the rest of us the fuck alone, OK? I don't need people screaming in my face because I'm doing my hobby 'wrong'.

Mate, I'm sure he wasn't completely serious about how every conlanger "must" have recorded samples. It reads to me much the same as if he had said "it'd be super cool if...".

Like if I said something like, "You know what? Octopuses should have laser shooting tentacles!", I'm not expecting every octopus to somehow obtain lasers or even less for an octopus to object, because it's not a demand I'm making (or even a request in this case).

[Lambuzhao]

We do not conlang to serve you or to please you.
Indeed. You most absolutely do not. Not in the least. I conlang to serve me. Thanks.


Different people conlang for different reasons,
Quite. In various threads, both here and in other cybernautical nooks and crannies, there are the amassing observations of a fundamental difference in conlangers:

the modelers, that make wonderfully complex Augran-orrey grammars and phonologies that would make Cherubim, Kherubim and Keruvim weep.

the rocketeers, that do a fair enough job of the grammar/phonology, but are at least as interested in launching their creation into the thrashing seas of utterances, dialogues & arguments.

I might have half-knowingly rattled the cages of the modelers. Apparently, I made the modelers and rocketeers both wince a little.

haranguing them for not doing things precisely the way you do them is petty and unpleasant.

Well, the fundamental act of language is communication: uttering, questioning, conversing; some kind of spoken something. I might have placed too much emphasis on the 'actual speaking' part of the argument, but, um, for thousands, and prolly tens of thousands of years, our multiplicity of modes of communication have been expressed through real, honest to goodness communicative acts , not tinkling glass menageries of phonologies and grammatical grimoires in perfect stasis.

Many of us are interested in naturalism.
Many of us do not have the faintest interest in making youtube videos, audacity files, etc, just so that you don't have to read the IPA.

Wow. Sounds a little like IPA is precisely the way to do things, or all else is petty or unpleasant, and worst of all, unnatural.

Thank God natlangs don't work that way. Oops. I mean 'unnatural langs'.

Frankly, one can IPA till their heart bursts with sanguine contentiment.
Good on 'em.

I studied it in grad-school. Most essential for transcribing langs both well known and not so well known. I do it with my conlangs when I can. Maybe not as much as some would like. But i see its utility.

If that's what you want to do,

Well, Pinky and Ren and Stimpy and I want to take over the world.
We've been having some problems seeing eye to eye with the Daleks, Cybermen, Putin, ISIS and Ebola.
We're working on it, though. Rest assured. You want in? Let us know.

Feeding & clothing my child, and sheltering him with a safe and nurturing environment comes next.

Conlanging is a strong third, though.

then fine, but leave the rest of us the fuck alone,

Ooh. I've been put in the thinking corner, while you get to speak for everyone else.
Groovy.
I will leave y'all's menageries the fuck alone.
Leaving the Fuck Alone commences in 7-6-5-...

OK?

M'kay.
...4-3-2...

I don't need people screaming in my face

1...

because I'm doing my hobby 'wrong'.

...END OF LINE
☮♥✝

[elemtilas]

I might have half-knowingly rattled the cages of the modelers. Apparently, I made the modelers and rocketeers both wince a little.

Rattle away my good sir! Rattle away. Chains and cages were meant to be shaken (and even stirred), from time to time.

And do continue quoting Byron in our general direction!

haranguing them for not doing things precisely the way you do them is petty and unpleasant.

Well, the fundamental act of language is communication: uttering, questioning, conversing; some kind of spoken something. I might have placed too much emphasis on the 'actual speaking' part of the argument, but, um, for thousands, and prolly tens of thousands of years, our multiplicity of modes of communication have been expressed through real, honest to goodness communicative acts , not tinkling glass menageries of phonologies and grammatical grimoires in perfect stasis.

Yep. And yep again. Especially that last bit. But I think you may be pushing for an ideal many in this abode simply are not prepared (or perhaps are yet too immature) for.

An invented language is by definition a medium of communication and most of them are, again by definition, spoken media of communication. (Or whispered or sung even!). It is the being more intense that lives when given voice. I have never made a voice recording, though I've toyed with the idea. I do acknowledge that such things are the summa of glossopoetic display. Kind of a living diorama if you will.

I think your gentle urging of others to step in that direction or shoot for stars rather farther away simply fell sideways down some folks' ear holes!

then fine, but leave the rest of us the fuck alone,

Ooh. I've been put in the thinking corner, while you get to speak for everyone else.
Groovy.
I will leave y'all's menageries the fuck alone.
Leaving the Fuck Alone commences in 7-6-5-...

OK?

M'kay.
...4-3-2...

I don't need people screaming in my face

1...

because I'm doing my hobby 'wrong'.

...END OF LINE
☮♥✝

Sr. Graucho it seems got up on one of the many wrong sides of the bed this antemeridian!

Anyway, same old same old from that quarter of conlangistan.

[lsd]

the fundamental act of language is communication

the fundamental act of conlang is con...

[elemtilas]

the fundamental act of language is communication

the fundamental act of conlang is con...

the fundamental act of conlang is Hello Kitty...

[GamerGeek]

the fundamental act of language is communication

the fundamental act of conlang is con...

the fundamental act of conlang is Hello Kitty...

We're getting a bit off topic now, eh?

[DesEsseintes]

the fundamental act of language is communication

the fundamental act of conlang is con...

the fundamental act of conlang is Hello Kitty...

We're getting a bit off topic now, eh?

You think?

[GamerGeek]

Spoiler:

the fundamental act of language is communication

the fundamental act of conlang is con...

the fundamental act of conlang is Hello Kitty...

We're getting a bit off topic now, eh?

You think?

I think the thread should be closed: We came to a conclusion. We also came to an argument.

[DV82LECM]

Um, okay...after all the infighting, now to get onto the core of my track for this entire post, what truly presses my interest in the naturalism of languages is two-fold: one, that there are languages still in existence which possess epically large inventories that appear to be somewhat ancient in their development and, two, that from some point in the past to now, migrations have taken toll on these inventories and have "Hawaiianized" (decreased) the number of sounds, with a small amount of exceptions. In these exceptions, there appears to have been what I imagine was a bunching up of people to have collected, almost, a synthetic feel to the amount of sounds a people in the past developed. These effects appear natural. I do feel that sometime in humanity's past, speech WAS far more capably complex than we were taught and might even be today for most of the planet. The fact that the NWC family is even remotely close to area which was where the supposed "Garden of Eden/Tower of Babel" gives some credence in my mind that our myths display a truth to human language having a common ancestor we have yet to discover -- not a proto-World, but a fact that human speech in the ancient past was, for some reason, vastly more complicated. I would venture that migrations out of Africa can be marked by the splitting off of large inventories from a much larger one than before. I know that changes occur which will combine and recombine sounds with clustering, but I will always feel that there is some truth that it is as natural to assume that areas with massive phonologies were the spearheads of migrations.