Having a problem with case endings...

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xBlackWolfx
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Re: Having a problem with case endings...

Post by xBlackWolfx »

my native language is american english, only other language i speak well is german. i have tried to learn french (and still want to due to the abnormally high amount of french websites i stumble upon, and there's this one conlang i've been wanting to learn called kotava but the only book ever published for it was only published in french!) but i have never managed to learn it, my primary problem is the highly irregular spelling, the odd grammar (there doesnt appear to be any rules, it looks like they just toss the words together and hope it makes sense), but one of my biggest problems is of course the liason thing you mentioned. i have a hard time making sense out of the words when they're being slurred into eachother. i havent been able to learn danish for the same reason (though danish is alot worse, i cant even make out danish words, they just sound like random gargling noises! and this coming from a guy whose favorite bands include rammstein oomph and eisbrecher, infact rammstein was the reason i learned german!).

adding more diphthongs would help to eleviate the problem, and there are more i can pronounce (i've managed to teach myself esperanto's eu diphthong, and have infact used it in some drafts of my previous conlang's phonology).

but i did just come up with a very simple solution which no one has mentioned: reduce the number of cases. some of them are just unnessary or redundant. for example saying when something happened would normally involve a whole sentence (ex: i was shopping when my wife came home), so why use a seperate case for it when you need to have the conjunction anyway? and i'll probably remove despite. the idea could simply be said as 'i was hindered by him' rather than 'despite him'. not like it's used very often anyway. and besides, the causal case sorta covers it. if you say that you had a hard time with a project, you can use the causal case to specify why. but then again, that would also need a conjunction so it could be used for a whole sentence, but i just like having it, it's fun and convinient (tarxei would mean 'because of anger', or 'i did it out of anger', or 'when i lost my temper' all with a single word!).

so that would probably be my best course of action: add a few more diphthongs and reduce the number of cases to something more natural and practical. and if still have a few too many, just use a full-syllable case ending. not like it'll break anything.

and i did think of another interesting why to increase the number of case endings: approximants. the endings need not be a single vowel, but could also be an approximant followed by a vowel. so if i added w to fullfill this role, my number of case-endings could double. i could of course also add in j, but i dont like using that consonant bc it tends to just result in palatization of the consonant (xj becoming ç, tj becoming tʃ, sj becoming ʃ, etc...).
Systemzwang
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Re: Having a problem with case endings...

Post by Systemzwang »

xBlackWolfx wrote:the odd grammar (there doesnt appear to be any rules, it looks like they just toss the words together and hope it makes sense)
get yourself an account at library.nu, log in, search for french grammar or french reference or french reference grammar, download the ten first books that look like they talk about french grammar.

there are rules, and loads of them. French is probably among the top 15 languages when it comes to how well its grammar has been studied, formalized, researched, and put to paper.
(look, any language has thousand of rules; the thing is, there's maybe 60 or so which have been researched deeply enough for more than a few hundred to have been identified. in the case of french you're lucky - hundreds upon hundreds of the assumed rules are the same as in english so no one even talks about them.)

but i did just come up with a very simple solution which no one has mentioned: reduce the number of cases. some of them are just unnessary or redundant. for example saying when something happened would normally involve a whole sentence (ex: i was shopping when my wife came home), so why use a seperate case for it when you need to have the conjunction anyway?
why would you need to have that conjunction anyway? many languages do withoutout. e.g. 'I was shopping my wife.gen homecoming-'WHEN'. This is very usual - but the case used is often one that also has a locative meaning.

I genuinely think your fear of the forms becoming indistinct is unwarranted, and that there's basically any number of phonological approaches to avoid it, and even if it weren't avoided, the speakers would manage anyway.

I think the reason no one suggested it though, is that usually when someone suggests something that radical for your conlanging, you start accusing us of being trolls.
Tanni
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Re: Having a problem with case endings...

Post by Tanni »

xBlackWolfx wrote:my native language is american english, only other language i speak well is german. i have tried to learn french ...
Then, if you speak real fast or if you hear somebody speaking real fast, what's about ''get tens of something'' or ''get the idea''? Does the t sound disappear or do you have any problem in speaking or understandig it?
xBlackWolfx wrote:... but i have never managed to learn it, my primary problem is the highly irregular spelling, ...,
I've always thought that French spelling is quite regular. Ah, gotcha! From the point of view of somebody speaking a language where spelling irregularity is the rule, a more regular spelling might appear highly irregular! You seem to have spelling problems in English as well.
xBlackWolfx wrote:... but one of my biggest problems is of course the liason thing you mentioned. i have a hard time making sense out of the words when they're being slurred into eachother.
I like ''la liaison'' very much. It's wonderful and eases up pronunciation.
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Pirka
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Re: Having a problem with case endings...

Post by Pirka »

xBlackWolfx wrote:...my primary problem is the highly irregular spelling...


Once you get the hang of the very few exceptions and understand the rules, you'll be able to confidently read any new French word and 90% of the time you'll know how to pronounce it. This is due to the fact that French seems to deviate to etymological but all the while phonetic spelling to make it easier for everyone.
xBlackWolfx wrote:...the odd grammar (there doesnt appear to be any rules, it looks like they just toss the words together and hope it makes sense)..
I felt like that in the beginning as well. Things like "y" and "en" confused the crap out of me. But once I started reading up about them, everything fell in place, even the crazy agreement rules. I'm sure it'll work for you if you stick with it!
xBlackWolfx wrote:...one of my biggest problems is of course the liason thing you mentioned...
Ah, notre bonne vieille amie, la liaison! I agree with you: the whole language sounds as if it were blended with a BlendTec blender in a Will it Blend? program. I still have problems with discerning where a word begins and where it ends. What can I say? You have to listen and practice a lot. Read out loud, practice the liaison; you'll have a better chance at hearing it if you know how to say it, or so I've experience in my language-learning career.

[/end promotional French post]
Luce
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Re: Having a problem with case endings...

Post by Luce »

xBlackWolfx wrote: i have tried to learn french (and still want to due to the abnormally high amount of french websites i stumble upon, and there's this one conlang i've been wanting to learn called kotava but the only book ever published for it was only published in french!)
Now, som grammars in other languages that french exist (Portugal, English...) Exist olso dictionnary en many languages and olso in Esperanto. http://www.international-language.org/
http://www.kotava.org/eo/AVK-EO_ravlemakam_04-2017.pdf
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qwed117
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Re: Having a problem with case endings...

Post by qwed117 »

Luce wrote:
xBlackWolfx wrote: i have tried to learn french (and still want to due to the abnormally high amount of french websites i stumble upon, and there's this one conlang i've been wanting to learn called kotava but the only book ever published for it was only published in french!)
Now, som grammars in other languages that french exist (Portugal, English...) Exist olso dictionnary en many languages and olso in Esperanto. http://www.international-language.org/
http://www.kotava.org/eo/AVK-EO_ravlemakam_04-2017.pdf
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Re: Having a problem with case endings...

Post by Frislander »

This person appears to be a necromancer, and an Esperanto one at that, cause their only other post so far has been on the Esperanto thread which hasn't been active since 2013.
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