(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here [2010-2019]

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sangi39
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 »

GamerGeek wrote:
qwed117 wrote:
GamerGeek wrote:
qwed117 wrote:
GamerGeek wrote:If Latin evolved more similarly to Greek, would it look more like Spanish or Italian?

See also
Latin "evolving" as in Latin changing from after the birth of Jesus to the 1700s? Or Latin evolving as in from 1000 BC to 100 AD?
What I meant is evolving into Modern Day but not splitting into the Romance Languages.
Maybe more like Spanish? Italian has 7 vowels, iirc, while Spanish has the same 5 that Greek has. Then again, Greek doesn't have the breaking that Spanish is notable for. Maybe you should post it in this thread.
Still not what I meant... :roll:
My analogy is that Greek is still a unified language, because it was supressed by Latin. If the opposite happened, would it resemble Spanish or Italian more?
Going by the hypothetical "Greek Empire" your proposed in the other thread, why not both? Since Latin evolved quite clearly in multiple directions, and as you said Greek is "still a unified language" (which is somewhat debatable anyway), then why would a modern, "post-Empire" Greek be more or less like Spanish or Italian than like both?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Xonen »

sangi39 wrote:
GamerGeek wrote:My analogy is that Greek is still a unified language, because it was supressed by Latin. If the opposite happened, would it resemble Spanish or Italian more?
Going by the hypothetical "Greek Empire" your proposed in the other thread, why not both? Since Latin evolved quite clearly in multiple directions, and as you said Greek is "still a unified language" (which is somewhat debatable anyway)
From a purely linguistic standpoint, there are still multiple Hellenic languages. In fact, the development of Greek in the territories of the former East Roman Empire could presumably have followed a similar path to the development of Latin in the west, if it hadn't been for those pesky Ottomans. Although I suppose there might be some demographic factors at play as well: the West Roman Empire apparently had enough native speakers of Latin to mostly replace the languages of former inhabitants - and to resist being replaced by those of newer invaders. In the east, by contrast, Greek served as a lingua franca but, obviously enough, failed to become as strongly established as a native language of the population. Nonetheless, Pontic still survives.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar »

Xonen wrote:Although I suppose there might be some democratic factors at play as well:
(Emphasis mine.)

I don't mean to nitpick, but might you mean "demographic"? Anyway, good points!
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Xonen »

shimobaatar wrote:
Xonen wrote:Although I suppose there might be some democratic factors at play as well:
(Emphasis mine.)

I don't mean to nitpick, but might you mean "demographic"?
Good catch, thanks. My brain has apparently been oversaturated with political jargon during the last couple of days thanks to this ridiculousness. Anyway, fixed now (my post, I mean; the country is still going to hell [¬.¬] ).
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn »

Where does the /n/ in passenger originate considering it comes from old French passagier?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 »

I've always assumed it was some kind of analogy, though I'll admit I've never thought about what the model would be. The same change happened in OF messagier > English messenger.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 »

Dormouse559 wrote:I've always assumed it was some kind of analogy, though I'll admit I've never thought about what the model would be. The same change happened in OF messagier > English messenger.
and also harbinger (which I've been pronouncing incorrectly for the last 16 years [D:] What pattern was it assimilating to, as the base word didn't really change.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn »

Seems like harbinger used to be herbergeour. Maybe there was a change of /r/ to /n/ that was later applied to passenger and messenger? Doesn't seem likely though
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 »

All4Ɇn wrote:Seems like harbinger used to be herbergeour. Maybe there was a change of /r/ to /n/ that was later applied to passenger and messenger? Doesn't seem likely though
It could possibly be a spelling error that made <r> look like an <n>. I feel like there would be another pattern though.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien »

This page has some other examples:

https://english.stackexchange.com/quest ... -messenger

They're calling it "intrusive N". There doesn't seem to be much of a reason behind it, but it shows up in unstressed second syllables of some three-syllable English words.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar »

A bit off-topic, but for most of my life I thought the word was "harbringer", as in "the bringer of… har?".
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn »

shimobaatar wrote:A bit off-topic, but for most of my life I thought the word was "harbringer", as in "the bringer of… har?".
Same here. Binging har doesn't make more sense either though [:P]
KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:They're calling it "intrusive N". There doesn't seem to be much of a reason behind it, but it shows up in unstressed second syllables of some three-syllable English words.
Thanks for finding this. Definitely an interesting phenomena. I feel like I have to make a language with something called "parasitic N" somewhere in its grammar now
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

All4Ɇn wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:A bit off-topic, but for most of my life I thought the word was "harbringer", as in "the bringer of… har?".
Same here. Binging har doesn't make more sense either though [:P]
KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:They're calling it "intrusive N". There doesn't seem to be much of a reason behind it, but it shows up in unstressed second syllables of some three-syllable English words.
Thanks for finding this. Definitely an interesting phenomena. I feel like I have to make a language with something called "parasitic N" somewhere in its grammar now
I think it's might have been people mixing up '-nger' and 'ger'. Both have similar meanings.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 »

Creyeditor wrote:
All4Ɇn wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:A bit off-topic, but for most of my life I thought the word was "harbringer", as in "the bringer of… har?".
Same here. Binging har doesn't make more sense either though [:P]
KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:They're calling it "intrusive N". There doesn't seem to be much of a reason behind it, but it shows up in unstressed second syllables of some three-syllable English words.
Thanks for finding this. Definitely an interesting phenomena. I feel like I have to make a language with something called "parasitic N" somewhere in its grammar now
I think it's might have been people mixing up '-nger' and 'ger'. Both have similar meanings.
Those are suffixes?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

I think -nger (as in boulanger) is borrowed from Proto-Germanic *-ingaz + er, whereas -ger, might be from -age (Latin āticum) + -er (as in messager).
This is mostly speculation.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao »

qwed117 wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:
All4Ɇn wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:A bit off-topic, but for most of my life I thought the word was "harbringer", as in "the bringer of… har?".
Same here. Binging har doesn't make more sense either though [:P]
KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:They're calling it "intrusive N". There doesn't seem to be much of a reason behind it, but it shows up in unstressed second syllables of some three-syllable English words.
Thanks for finding this. Definitely an interesting phenomena. I feel like I have to make a language with something called "parasitic N" somewhere in its grammar now
I think it's might have been people mixing up '-nger' and 'ger'. Both have similar meanings.
Those are suffixes?
Two things:

1) n/r /l mix-up is a hallmark of PIE langs. Just look at the last liquid of *wedr/wedn 'water'. I think theancestor of old :lat: assyr 'blood' is also one of these,
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sanguis#Latin

as is, if memory serves, the ancestor of iecur/hepar. Sort of surprising to find iter (Cf. Hittite itar) and femur belong to this lot (!)

Here's what wikipedia sez:
Some athematic noun stems have different final consonants in different cases; these are termed heteroclitic stems. Most of these stems end in *-r- in the nominative and accusative singular, and in *-n- in the other cases. An example of such r/n-stems is the acrostatic neuter *wód-r̥ 'water', genitive *wéd-n̥-s. The suffixes *-mer/n-, *-ser/n-, *-ter/n- and *-wer/n- are also attested, as in the probably proterokinetic *péh₂-wr̥ 'fire', genitive *ph₂-wén-s or similar. An l/n-stem is *séh₂-wl̥ or *seh₂-wōl 'sun', genitive *sh₂-wén-s or the like.[8][35]
http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.t ... clites.pdf
http://www.uni-marburg.de/fb10/iksl/spr ... khorst.pdf
http://www.academia.edu/14707463/Remnan ... n_Germanic

The Gospel of Saint John of Sprachwissenschaft is the first to make mention of the Heteroclite
And I will send you another, Otherhanger. A spirit of Two-th.


The android David gets decapitated in Prometheus precisely because that is the Mala'kak/Space Jockey/Engineer penalty for gumming up the r/n heteroclity when speaking Intergalactic PIE.


To you, O Heteroclite, we raise!
[:3]

2)
Abosultely not a suffix in 'harbinger', originally orginally. The extra /er/ came via Middle French herbergeor , which
comes from the verb herbergier. This in turn comes from Germanic *harja-bergaz "host-shelter". In Proto-Germanic, there is no final /er/, nor */arjaz/ nor */arjiz/ suffix, for that matter.

In fact, the word harbor shares its etymology with harbinger.


PS

There's even an at least one example of this r/n cockup that occured diachronically across the loanword boundary.

:lat: mango, mangonis "dealer, trader", has a descendant in Old Saxon mangon with a final /n/, but in :non: mangari and Old :eng: mangere. More probably, an ancient *arjis suffix was tacked on for added clarity, rather than r/n sleight of hand mongering.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Trebor »

I'm aware of strategies like obviation, logophoricity, and long-distance reflexives. Are there other ways for natlangs to keep sentences like the following unambiguous? Translations and glosses are welcome.

(1) John knows Alex better than Nick.

(John knows Alex better than John knows Nick./John knows Alex better than Nick knows Alex.)

(2) Joe is stricter with himself than anyone else.

(Joe is stricter with himself than Joe is strict with anyone else./Joe is stricter with himself than anyone else is strict with Joe.)

(3) Andrew thinks everyone likes him.

(Andrew thinks everyone likes Andrew./Andrew thinks everyone likes (say) Steve.)

(4) Mike gave George a picture of himself.

(Mike gave George a picture of Mike./Mike gave George a picture of George.)
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn »

EDIT: Just realized you said you were aware of Logophoricity [>_<]


English itself can avoid the ambiguity in the first two by extending the sentences:

1. John knows Alex better than Nick does.

2. Joe is stricter with himself than anyone else is with him.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Trebor »

All4Ɇn wrote:EDIT: Just realized you said you were aware of Logophoricity [>_<]


English itself can avoid the ambiguity in the first two by extending the sentences:

1. John knows Alex better than Nick does.

2. Joe is stricter with himself than anyone else is with him.

Yes. (I didn't think to mention this option since it would be fairly well known, given that we're all communicating in English.) How widespread is this 'solution' cross-linguistically by comparison to other possibilities?
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Post by Sumelic »

Trebor wrote:I'm aware of strategies like obviation, logophoricity, and long-distance reflexives. Are there other ways for natlangs to keep sentences like the following unambiguous? Translations and glosses are welcome.

(1) John knows Alex better than Nick.

(John knows Alex better than John knows Nick./John knows Alex better than Nick knows Alex.)
I assume you're aware of the following also, but I didn't see it mentioned anywhere: the strategy used in some registers of some varieties of English for differentiating pronouns in this context using case: "John knows Alex better than him" vs. "John knows Alex better than he."
(3) Andrew thinks everyone likes him.

(Andrew thinks everyone likes Andrew./Andrew thinks everyone likes (say) Steve.)
I doubt the following exact structure is used in French, since French doesn't use the passive voice as much as English, but this reminds me of how in general French has more use of infinitives with implicit subjects that are the same as the finite verb than English does (since there seems to be a stronger dispreference in French for repeating a subject pronoun in a subordinate clause with a subjunctive verb). I can imagine some language where this could be translated by something like "Andrew thinks to be liked by everyone." (Compare to the acceptable-in-English "Andrew expects to be liked by everyone", which is approximately equivalent to "Andrew expects everyone to like him.")
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