Going by the hypothetical "Greek Empire" your proposed in the other thread, why not both? Since Latin evolved quite clearly in multiple directions, and as you said Greek is "still a unified language" (which is somewhat debatable anyway), then why would a modern, "post-Empire" Greek be more or less like Spanish or Italian than like both?GamerGeek wrote:Still not what I meant...qwed117 wrote:Maybe more like Spanish? Italian has 7 vowels, iirc, while Spanish has the same 5 that Greek has. Then again, Greek doesn't have the breaking that Spanish is notable for. Maybe you should post it in this thread.GamerGeek wrote:What I meant is evolving into Modern Day but not splitting into the Romance Languages.qwed117 wrote:Latin "evolving" as in Latin changing from after the birth of Jesus to the 1700s? Or Latin evolving as in from 1000 BC to 100 AD?GamerGeek wrote:If Latin evolved more similarly to Greek, would it look more like Spanish or Italian?
See also
My analogy is that Greek is still a unified language, because it was supressed by Latin. If the opposite happened, would it resemble Spanish or Italian more?
(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here [2010-2019]
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
From a purely linguistic standpoint, there are still multiple Hellenic languages. In fact, the development of Greek in the territories of the former East Roman Empire could presumably have followed a similar path to the development of Latin in the west, if it hadn't been for those pesky Ottomans. Although I suppose there might be some demographic factors at play as well: the West Roman Empire apparently had enough native speakers of Latin to mostly replace the languages of former inhabitants - and to resist being replaced by those of newer invaders. In the east, by contrast, Greek served as a lingua franca but, obviously enough, failed to become as strongly established as a native language of the population. Nonetheless, Pontic still survives.sangi39 wrote:Going by the hypothetical "Greek Empire" your proposed in the other thread, why not both? Since Latin evolved quite clearly in multiple directions, and as you said Greek is "still a unified language" (which is somewhat debatable anyway)GamerGeek wrote:My analogy is that Greek is still a unified language, because it was supressed by Latin. If the opposite happened, would it resemble Spanish or Italian more?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
(Emphasis mine.)Xonen wrote:Although I suppose there might be some democratic factors at play as well:
I don't mean to nitpick, but might you mean "demographic"? Anyway, good points!
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Good catch, thanks. My brain has apparently been oversaturated with political jargon during the last couple of days thanks to this ridiculousness. Anyway, fixed now (my post, I mean; the country is still going to hell ).shimobaatar wrote:(Emphasis mine.)Xonen wrote:Although I suppose there might be some democratic factors at play as well:
I don't mean to nitpick, but might you mean "demographic"?
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Where does the /n/ in passenger originate considering it comes from old French passagier?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
I've always assumed it was some kind of analogy, though I'll admit I've never thought about what the model would be. The same change happened in OF messagier > English messenger.
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
and also harbinger (which I've been pronouncing incorrectly for the last 16 years What pattern was it assimilating to, as the base word didn't really change.Dormouse559 wrote:I've always assumed it was some kind of analogy, though I'll admit I've never thought about what the model would be. The same change happened in OF messagier > English messenger.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Seems like harbinger used to be herbergeour. Maybe there was a change of /r/ to /n/ that was later applied to passenger and messenger? Doesn't seem likely though
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
It could possibly be a spelling error that made <r> look like an <n>. I feel like there would be another pattern though.All4Ɇn wrote:Seems like harbinger used to be herbergeour. Maybe there was a change of /r/ to /n/ that was later applied to passenger and messenger? Doesn't seem likely though
Spoiler:
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
This page has some other examples:
https://english.stackexchange.com/quest ... -messenger
They're calling it "intrusive N". There doesn't seem to be much of a reason behind it, but it shows up in unstressed second syllables of some three-syllable English words.
https://english.stackexchange.com/quest ... -messenger
They're calling it "intrusive N". There doesn't seem to be much of a reason behind it, but it shows up in unstressed second syllables of some three-syllable English words.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
A bit off-topic, but for most of my life I thought the word was "harbringer", as in "the bringer of… har?".
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Same here. Binging har doesn't make more sense either thoughshimobaatar wrote:A bit off-topic, but for most of my life I thought the word was "harbringer", as in "the bringer of… har?".
Thanks for finding this. Definitely an interesting phenomena. I feel like I have to make a language with something called "parasitic N" somewhere in its grammar nowKaiTheHomoSapien wrote:They're calling it "intrusive N". There doesn't seem to be much of a reason behind it, but it shows up in unstressed second syllables of some three-syllable English words.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
I think it's might have been people mixing up '-nger' and 'ger'. Both have similar meanings.All4Ɇn wrote:Same here. Binging har doesn't make more sense either thoughshimobaatar wrote:A bit off-topic, but for most of my life I thought the word was "harbringer", as in "the bringer of… har?".
Thanks for finding this. Definitely an interesting phenomena. I feel like I have to make a language with something called "parasitic N" somewhere in its grammar nowKaiTheHomoSapien wrote:They're calling it "intrusive N". There doesn't seem to be much of a reason behind it, but it shows up in unstressed second syllables of some three-syllable English words.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Those are suffixes?Creyeditor wrote:I think it's might have been people mixing up '-nger' and 'ger'. Both have similar meanings.All4Ɇn wrote:Same here. Binging har doesn't make more sense either thoughshimobaatar wrote:A bit off-topic, but for most of my life I thought the word was "harbringer", as in "the bringer of… har?".
Thanks for finding this. Definitely an interesting phenomena. I feel like I have to make a language with something called "parasitic N" somewhere in its grammar nowKaiTheHomoSapien wrote:They're calling it "intrusive N". There doesn't seem to be much of a reason behind it, but it shows up in unstressed second syllables of some three-syllable English words.
Spoiler:
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
I think -nger (as in boulanger) is borrowed from Proto-Germanic *-ingaz + er, whereas -ger, might be from -age (Latin āticum) + -er (as in messager).
This is mostly speculation.
This is mostly speculation.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Two things:qwed117 wrote:Those are suffixes?Creyeditor wrote:I think it's might have been people mixing up '-nger' and 'ger'. Both have similar meanings.All4Ɇn wrote:Same here. Binging har doesn't make more sense either thoughshimobaatar wrote:A bit off-topic, but for most of my life I thought the word was "harbringer", as in "the bringer of… har?".
Thanks for finding this. Definitely an interesting phenomena. I feel like I have to make a language with something called "parasitic N" somewhere in its grammar nowKaiTheHomoSapien wrote:They're calling it "intrusive N". There doesn't seem to be much of a reason behind it, but it shows up in unstressed second syllables of some three-syllable English words.
1) n/r /l mix-up is a hallmark of PIE langs. Just look at the last liquid of *wedr/wedn 'water'. I think theancestor of old assyr 'blood' is also one of these,
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sanguis#Latin
as is, if memory serves, the ancestor of iecur/hepar. Sort of surprising to find iter (Cf. Hittite itar) and femur belong to this lot (!)
Here's what wikipedia sez:
http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.t ... clites.pdfSome athematic noun stems have different final consonants in different cases; these are termed heteroclitic stems. Most of these stems end in *-r- in the nominative and accusative singular, and in *-n- in the other cases. An example of such r/n-stems is the acrostatic neuter *wód-r̥ 'water', genitive *wéd-n̥-s. The suffixes *-mer/n-, *-ser/n-, *-ter/n- and *-wer/n- are also attested, as in the probably proterokinetic *péh₂-wr̥ 'fire', genitive *ph₂-wén-s or similar. An l/n-stem is *séh₂-wl̥ or *seh₂-wōl 'sun', genitive *sh₂-wén-s or the like.[8][35]
http://www.uni-marburg.de/fb10/iksl/spr ... khorst.pdf
http://www.academia.edu/14707463/Remnan ... n_Germanic
The Gospel of Saint John of Sprachwissenschaft is the first to make mention of the Heteroclite
And I will send you another, Otherhanger. A spirit of Two-th.
The android David gets decapitated in Prometheus precisely because that is the Mala'kak/Space Jockey/Engineer penalty for gumming up the r/n heteroclity when speaking Intergalactic PIE.
To you, O Heteroclite, we raise!
2)
Abosultely not a suffix in 'harbinger', originally orginally. The extra /er/ came via Middle French herbergeor , which
comes from the verb herbergier. This in turn comes from Germanic *harja-bergaz "host-shelter". In Proto-Germanic, there is no final /er/, nor */arjaz/ nor */arjiz/ suffix, for that matter.
In fact, the word harbor shares its etymology with harbinger.
PS
There's even an at least one example of this r/n cockup that occured diachronically across the loanword boundary.
mango, mangonis "dealer, trader", has a descendant in Old Saxon mangon with a final /n/, but in mangari and Old mangere. More probably, an ancient *arjis suffix was tacked on for added clarity, rather than r/n sleight of hand mongering.
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
I'm aware of strategies like obviation, logophoricity, and long-distance reflexives. Are there other ways for natlangs to keep sentences like the following unambiguous? Translations and glosses are welcome.
(1) John knows Alex better than Nick.
(John knows Alex better than John knows Nick./John knows Alex better than Nick knows Alex.)
(2) Joe is stricter with himself than anyone else.
(Joe is stricter with himself than Joe is strict with anyone else./Joe is stricter with himself than anyone else is strict with Joe.)
(3) Andrew thinks everyone likes him.
(Andrew thinks everyone likes Andrew./Andrew thinks everyone likes (say) Steve.)
(4) Mike gave George a picture of himself.
(Mike gave George a picture of Mike./Mike gave George a picture of George.)
(1) John knows Alex better than Nick.
(John knows Alex better than John knows Nick./John knows Alex better than Nick knows Alex.)
(2) Joe is stricter with himself than anyone else.
(Joe is stricter with himself than Joe is strict with anyone else./Joe is stricter with himself than anyone else is strict with Joe.)
(3) Andrew thinks everyone likes him.
(Andrew thinks everyone likes Andrew./Andrew thinks everyone likes (say) Steve.)
(4) Mike gave George a picture of himself.
(Mike gave George a picture of Mike./Mike gave George a picture of George.)
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
EDIT: Just realized you said you were aware of Logophoricity
English itself can avoid the ambiguity in the first two by extending the sentences:
1. John knows Alex better than Nick does.
2. Joe is stricter with himself than anyone else is with him.
English itself can avoid the ambiguity in the first two by extending the sentences:
1. John knows Alex better than Nick does.
2. Joe is stricter with himself than anyone else is with him.
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
All4Ɇn wrote:EDIT: Just realized you said you were aware of Logophoricity
English itself can avoid the ambiguity in the first two by extending the sentences:
1. John knows Alex better than Nick does.
2. Joe is stricter with himself than anyone else is with him.
Yes. (I didn't think to mention this option since it would be fairly well known, given that we're all communicating in English.) How widespread is this 'solution' cross-linguistically by comparison to other possibilities?
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
I assume you're aware of the following also, but I didn't see it mentioned anywhere: the strategy used in some registers of some varieties of English for differentiating pronouns in this context using case: "John knows Alex better than him" vs. "John knows Alex better than he."Trebor wrote:I'm aware of strategies like obviation, logophoricity, and long-distance reflexives. Are there other ways for natlangs to keep sentences like the following unambiguous? Translations and glosses are welcome.
(1) John knows Alex better than Nick.
(John knows Alex better than John knows Nick./John knows Alex better than Nick knows Alex.)
I doubt the following exact structure is used in French, since French doesn't use the passive voice as much as English, but this reminds me of how in general French has more use of infinitives with implicit subjects that are the same as the finite verb than English does (since there seems to be a stronger dispreference in French for repeating a subject pronoun in a subordinate clause with a subjunctive verb). I can imagine some language where this could be translated by something like "Andrew thinks to be liked by everyone." (Compare to the acceptable-in-English "Andrew expects to be liked by everyone", which is approximately equivalent to "Andrew expects everyone to like him.")(3) Andrew thinks everyone likes him.
(Andrew thinks everyone likes Andrew./Andrew thinks everyone likes (say) Steve.)