(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here [2010-2019]

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine »

Alomar wrote:Has anyone else noticed the metathesis (correct process?) in American English of 'breakfast' to /brɛ.fɪks/?

I've noticed this in two totally separate people (family member from Midwest b 1960s) and coworker in Boston from South Florida b 1980s.
Now that you mention it, I have done that (though I usually keep the t)
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Does anyone of you know how to use the Graz database on reduplication? I tried and I am just confused by the user interface.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Vai »

Thrice Xandvii wrote:Is there a language that lacks /k/? How about one that lacks [k] even as an allophone?
Yes Tahitian lacks /k/ entirely
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by DesEsseintes »

Vai wrote:
Thrice Xandvii wrote:Is there a language that lacks /k/? How about one that lacks [k] even as an allophone?
Yes Tahitian lacks /k/ entirely
So does Gimi. And there are others.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn »

In Ottoman Turkish the word for the German language, Nemçe, is a derivation of Austria rather than Germany. Are there any other natlang occurrences of a language's name being derived from a different country than the one we typically see?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Frislander »

DesEsseintes wrote:
Vai wrote:
Thrice Xandvii wrote:Is there a language that lacks /k/? How about one that lacks [k] even as an allophone?
Yes Tahitian lacks /k/ entirely
So does Gimi. And there are others.
The example I always think of with regards to this is Xavante (see both Wikipedia, as well as SAPHON, though I'd say the Wikipedia one is actually much better simply because it discusses allophony). Remaining in South America there's also Iñapari, and possibly others.
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All4Ɇn wrote:In Ottoman Turkish the word for the German language, Nemçe, is a derivation of Austria rather than Germany. Are there any other natlang occurrences of a language's name being derived from a different country than the one we typically see?
Indonesian varities are often called Malay (like Papuan Malay) even though they are spoken in Indonesia. Obviously related to the name of the state Malaysia.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Iyionaku »

Creyeditor wrote:
All4Ɇn wrote:In Ottoman Turkish the word for the German language, Nemçe, is a derivation of Austria rather than Germany. Are there any other natlang occurrences of a language's name being derived from a different country than the one we typically see?
Indonesian varities are often called Malay (like Papuan Malay) even though they are spoken in Indonesia. Obviously related to the name of the state Malaysia.
Crey, I think you cannot really count that as "Malay" is just the name for the various peoples and tribes around that region. Also note that the term for those languages are, as you stated it, Malay, whereas the term for the language of Malaysia is called Malaysian. In their language itself, it's even more distinctive: The languages are called "Bahasa-bahasa Melayu" (reduplication marking the plural), while the language of Malaysia is called "Bahasa Malaysia". In fact it works the other way round, and the state of Malaysia as well as the Malaysian language derived it's name from the Malay tribes (that are not exclusively settled in Malaysia).

Propably you could count France, which name is not derived from Gallia, but from the Franconian tribes that immigrated there, and the Franconian Empire, respectively. The country of Franconia, however, today is a part of Bavaria (around the city of Nuremberg). Plus, there are several occurrences of states in Africa who derive their name from an old African empire that never was located within the borders of that modern country. Ghana, for example, that was never part of the Kingdom of Ghana.
Edit: Appears that there is indeed a ****load of states who derive their name from somewhere else. FYROM for example derives its name from the former Kingdom of Makedonia, where it was never part from.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

Iyionaku wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:
All4Ɇn wrote:In Ottoman Turkish the word for the German language, Nemçe, is a derivation of Austria rather than Germany. Are there any other natlang occurrences of a language's name being derived from a different country than the one we typically see?
Indonesian varities are often called Malay (like Papuan Malay) even though they are spoken in Indonesia. Obviously related to the name of the state Malaysia.
Crey, I think you cannot really count that as "Malay" is just the name for the various peoples and tribes around that region. Also note that the term for those languages are, as you stated it, Malay, whereas the term for the language of Malaysia is called Malaysian. In their language itself, it's even more distinctive: The languages are called "Bahasa-bahasa Melayu" (reduplication marking the plural), while the language of Malaysia is called "Bahasa Malaysia". In fact it works the other way round, and the state of Malaysia as well as the Malaysian language derived it's name from the Malay tribes (that are not exclusively settled in Malaysia).
You misunderstood me. I never claimed that the language names were derived from the state name, I said that they are related. The idea of a nation state is relatively new in that area, so I would be really suprised if some languages original name (endonym or exonym) was derived from the name of a nation state.
Also in Indonesian Bahasa Malaysia is used less frequently than Bahasa Melayu, when refererring to the standard variety spoken in Malaysia. Doesn't really make a difference, though, I think.
And I'm actually interested, what do you mean by Malay tribes?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Iyionaku »

Creyeditor wrote:You misunderstood me. I never claimed that the language names were derived from the state name, I said that they are related. The idea of a nation state is relatively new in that area, so I would be really suprised if some languages original name (endonym or exonym) was derived from the name of a nation state.
Also in Indonesian Bahasa Malaysia is used less frequently than Bahasa Melayu, when refererring to the standard variety spoken in Malaysia. Doesn't really make a difference, though, I think.
And I'm actually interested, what do you mean by Malay tribes?
Ok yes, I misunderstood you. Sorry. What I meant by Malay tribes? Can't tell you, it was early in the morning. I definitely meant "Malay peoples", i.e. peoples that speak a Western Malayo Polynesian language.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao »

All4Ɇn wrote:In Ottoman Turkish the word for the German language, Nemçe, is a derivation of Austria rather than Germany. Are there any other natlang occurrences of a language's name being derived from a different country than the one we typically see?
Um. Huh?

Videlicet:
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads ... e.1539645/

Whether it's true or not, Wiktionary seems to have accepted it as the actual origin for Ottoman nemçe.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%86%D9%85%DA%86%D9%87
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... %8Cc%D1%8C

If it appears to be a derivation of 'Austria', the Slavs who came in contact with the Ottomans in the Austria-Hungarian Empire would have referred to any German-speaking persons as /nemetski/. Thus the adoption into Ottoman Turkish.

Interesting to note in other IE langs, both :lat: infans, infantis literally means 'mute' or 'not speaking', as does :grc: νήπιος [nɛ̌ː.pi.os]. And both words are used for 'child' or 'baby'.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by esoanem »

I'd guess what's going on is that Ottoman Turkish also derives the word for Austria from Slavic *němьcь (apparently Persian still has namša as a name for Austria, which is definitely of Slavic origin and presumably related to the Ottoman Turkish given the borrowings back and forth between the two) and All4En either misconstrued the etymology or the question.
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Post by Salmoneus »

Lambuzhao wrote:
Interesting to note in other IE langs, both :lat: infans, infantis literally means 'mute' or 'not speaking', as does :grc: νήπιος [nɛ̌ː.pi.os]. And both words are used for 'child' or 'baby'.
Huh? Wiktionary has "nepios" as of unknown etymology, but it's hard not to think it's got something to do with "nepot", etc. Beekes, on the other hand, dismisses a farfetched etymology of 'no strength', and instead sees it as from a root 'to join'.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Oneiros K »

Is a diachronic change from pharyngealized consonants to ejective consonants plausible?
pˤ tˤ qˤ fˤ sˤ χˤ > p' t' q' f' s' χ'
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Post by qwed117 »

Oneiros K wrote:Is a diachronic change from pharyngealized consonants to ejective consonants plausible?
pˤ tˤ qˤ fˤ sˤ χˤ > p' t' q' f' s' χ'
It's less believable than the reverse, but that might just be because one is more attested than the other.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Oneiros K »

Is a diachronic change from breathy voiced vowels to long vowels plausible?
V̤ > Vː
I didn't find any examples at index diachronica. But breathy voiced vowels are rare anyway.
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Post by Oneiros K »

By the way, thanks mongolian.
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Oneiros K wrote:By the way, thanks mongolian.
:?:
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That's the rank. You can call him qwed.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by DesEsseintes »

Creyeditor wrote:That's the rank. You can call him qwed.
[xD]

I thought he was thanking the Mongolian language and I could not figure out why!
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