Whether it's accurate or not, Wikipedia uses [œ] as a possible pronunciation of /ə/.GrandPiano wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018 04:18Probably because /ə/ is the most common pronunciation of <e> in French (I don't think /œ/ is accurate... perhaps you meant [ɵ̞], which might be a more accurate transcription of French /ə/?).ixals wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018 04:15I mean the letters that end in /e/. "b", "c", "d" etc. all end in /e/ and in other languages they all rhyme with "e" (like English /diː/ and /iː/, German and even original Latin /deː/ and /eː/), so I'm just wondering why "e" is somehow /ə~œ/.
Also note that, at least according to Wikipedia, those consonant letters are written <bé>, <cé>, <dé>, etc., with an acute accent, when spelled out.
(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here [2010-2019]
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
I took the question to mean, why is it "a, bé, cé, dé, œ" as opposed to ""a, bé, cé, dé, é". Even English has "(a), bi, si, di, i"
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Yeah, that's apparently what ixals meant. I'm not familiar enough with the names of French letters to have known this, so I thought they might have meant that the 5 vowel letters are pronounced as their IPA values in French, except for <e> (which, of course, isn't the case).Lao Kou wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018 04:26I took the question to mean, why is it "a, bé, cé, dé, œ" as opposed to ""a, bé, cé, dé, é". Even English has "(a), bi, si, di, i"
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
That makes sense. I just would have expected it to be pronounced as /e/ following all the other letters and languages, especially because /ə/ doesn't exist in "stressed" syllables (at least I don't know of any words where it does?). It always felt a bit strange to me. So "e" being pronounced as /ə/ definitely isn't a natural change from Latin "e" /eː/ and was a French innovation. Quite obvious if that's really the case.GrandPiano wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018 04:18Probably because /ə/ is the most common pronunciation of <e> in French (I don't think /œ/ is accurate... perhaps you meant [ɵ̞], which might be a more accurate transcription of French /ə/?).ixals wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018 04:15I mean the letters that end in /e/. "b", "c", "d" etc. all end in /e/ and in other languages they all rhyme with "e" (like English /diː/ and /iː/, German and even original Latin /deː/ and /eː/), so I'm just wondering why "e" is somehow /ə~œ/.
Also note that, at least according to Wikipedia, those consonant letters are written <bé>, <cé>, <dé>, etc., with an acute accent, when spelled out.
Also, I always saw the actual pronunciation of /ə/ being described as "like the eu in heure (or other words with /œ/)" so I used /œ/.
Yes, that's what I was trying to say. I just need to step up my game at describing/explaining things more clearly, I guess.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Well, it seems like you explained yourself perfectly well, but, like I said, I didn't know enough about the names of French letters to understand what you meant.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Huh. I'm probably wrong, then.shimobaatar wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018 04:23Whether it's accurate or not, Wikipedia uses [œ] as a possible pronunciation of /ə/.GrandPiano wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018 04:18Probably because /ə/ is the most common pronunciation of <e> in French (I don't think /œ/ is accurate... perhaps you meant [ɵ̞], which might be a more accurate transcription of French /ə/?).ixals wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018 04:15I mean the letters that end in /e/. "b", "c", "d" etc. all end in /e/ and in other languages they all rhyme with "e" (like English /diː/ and /iː/, German and even original Latin /deː/ and /eː/), so I'm just wondering why "e" is somehow /ə~œ/.
Also note that, at least according to Wikipedia, those consonant letters are written <bé>, <cé>, <dé>, etc., with an acute accent, when spelled out.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Upon closer inspection, actually, the Wikipedia page on French phonology also contains the line "Geoff Lindsey suggests the symbol ⟨ɵ⟩", so who knows?GrandPiano wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018 05:23Huh. I'm probably wrong, then.shimobaatar wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018 04:23Whether it's accurate or not, Wikipedia uses [œ] as a possible pronunciation of /ə/.GrandPiano wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018 04:18Probably because /ə/ is the most common pronunciation of <e> in French (I don't think /œ/ is accurate... perhaps you meant [ɵ̞], which might be a more accurate transcription of French /ə/?).ixals wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018 04:15I mean the letters that end in /e/. "b", "c", "d" etc. all end in /e/ and in other languages they all rhyme with "e" (like English /diː/ and /iː/, German and even original Latin /deː/ and /eː/), so I'm just wondering why "e" is somehow /ə~œ/.
Also note that, at least according to Wikipedia, those consonant letters are written <bé>, <cé>, <dé>, etc., with an acute accent, when spelled out.
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
I don't think I've ever heard the letter e not pronounced as /ø/Dormouse559 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018 05:08Good point. Worth noting that /œ ø ə/ are often merged in Modern French.
Don't forget that until fairly recently words ending in -e always pronounced it as an /ə/. At that time it would've been by far the most common occurence of the letter e outside of é, è, eu. Seems logical to me that they would've borrowed the pronunciation for the vowel from the most common occurence of it that wasn't written as a digraph or with an accent mark.ixals wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018 04:50That makes sense. I just would have expected it to be pronounced as /e/ following all the other letters and languages, especially because /ə/ doesn't exist in "stressed" syllables (at least I don't know of any words where it does?). It always felt a bit strange to me. So "e" being pronounced as /ə/ definitely isn't a natural change from Latin "e" /eː/ and was a French innovation. Quite obvious if that's really the case.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
But stressed shwas are an abomination
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Whenever someone stresses a schwa, it always just sounds like /œ/ or /ø/ to me.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Even in English?KaiTheHomoSapien wrote: ↑20 Feb 2018 18:53 Whenever someone stresses a schwa, it always just sounds like /œ/ or /ø/ to me.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Ah, no, in English it usually sounds to me like /ʌ/, but in my idiolect, even unstressed schwas can sound like that.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
To avoid getting burnt out on revising Project Ypsilon, I've been taking breaks from working on that language and revisiting Visigothic as well. I want to make it feel less like Spanish, so I've been looking at other Iberian Romance languages as well.
As I've been doing this, I've been reminded of the fact that many of these languages distinguish two rhotic phonemes (Spanish /ɾ/ vs. /r/ or Portuguese /ɾ/ vs. /ʁ/, for example). For whatever reason, it never occurred to me before now to wonder how this distinction came about. However, I was unable to find any information regarding the history of these contrasts.
So, my question is this: How did the phonemic distinction between two rhotic consonants found in many Iberian Romance languages arise?
As I've been doing this, I've been reminded of the fact that many of these languages distinguish two rhotic phonemes (Spanish /ɾ/ vs. /r/ or Portuguese /ɾ/ vs. /ʁ/, for example). For whatever reason, it never occurred to me before now to wonder how this distinction came about. However, I was unable to find any information regarding the history of these contrasts.
So, my question is this: How did the phonemic distinction between two rhotic consonants found in many Iberian Romance languages arise?
Edit: After posting this, it occurred to me to check whether or not this contrast exists in Basque, too, and it appears that it does. Did the distinction spread from Basque into the peninsula's Romance languages?
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Well it kind of exists in Italian as well as [r] is more often than not pronounced as /ɾ/ while [rː] remains pronounced as /rː/. Iberian languages originally contrasted them the same way as modern Italian (r vs rː) but when gemination was lost, these languages ended up with two rhotics as [r] became [ɾ] and [rː] became [r]. Hopefully that was a good way of explaining itshimobaatar wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018 07:31So, my question is this: How did the phonemic distinction between two rhotic consonants found in many Iberian Romance languages arise?
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Oh, interesting. Thank you!All4Ɇn wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018 07:41Well it kind of exists in Italian as well as [r] is more often than not pronounced as /ɾ/ while [rː] remains pronounced as /rː/. Iberian languages originally contrasted them the same way as modern Italian (r vs rː) but when gemination was lost, these languages ended up with two rhotics as [r] became [ɾ] and [rː] became [r]. Hopefully that was a good way of explaining itshimobaatar wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018 07:31So, my question is this: How did the phonemic distinction between two rhotic consonants found in many Iberian Romance languages arise?
That does leave me with another question, though. Where did the /r rː/ distinction come from? Was it present in Latin (either Classical or Vulgar)?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Latin had rr clusters for sure. Not sure how they were pronounced exactly, though.shimobaatar wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018 07:49Oh, interesting. Thank you!All4Ɇn wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018 07:41Well it kind of exists in Italian as well as [r] is more often than not pronounced as /ɾ/ while [rː] remains pronounced as /rː/. Iberian languages originally contrasted them the same way as modern Italian (r vs rː) but when gemination was lost, these languages ended up with two rhotics as [r] became [ɾ] and [rː] became [r]. Hopefully that was a good way of explaining itshimobaatar wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018 07:31So, my question is this: How did the phonemic distinction between two rhotic consonants found in many Iberian Romance languages arise?
That does leave me with another question, though. Where did the /r rː/ distinction come from? Was it present in Latin (either Classical or Vulgar)?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Thank you!gestaltist wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018 09:40 Latin had rr clusters for sure. Not sure how they were pronounced exactly, though.
Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Latin [rr] is the result of simplification of several clusters containing [r], I believe [rs] > [rr] is the most common word-internally, and [nr] > [rr] is commonly found in prefixed words, with prefixes such as in- and con-.shimobaatar wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018 07:49Oh, interesting. Thank you!All4Ɇn wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018 07:41Well it kind of exists in Italian as well as [r] is more often than not pronounced as /ɾ/ while [rː] remains pronounced as /rː/. Iberian languages originally contrasted them the same way as modern Italian (r vs rː) but when gemination was lost, these languages ended up with two rhotics as [r] became [ɾ] and [rː] became [r]. Hopefully that was a good way of explaining itshimobaatar wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018 07:31So, my question is this: How did the phonemic distinction between two rhotic consonants found in many Iberian Romance languages arise?
That does leave me with another question, though. Where did the /r rː/ distinction come from? Was it present in Latin (either Classical or Vulgar)?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Basque may have played a role. Old Basque contrasted gemination for /n l r /, but not for stops or the labial nasal /m/.
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