(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here [2010-2019]

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
User avatar
Lao Kou
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 5089
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lao Kou »

All4Ɇn wrote:
lsd wrote:In French, Helmut is not pronunced with aspirated h (except those pedants that try to show their knowledge in tongue...), so...
Is this an exception to the normal rules? I was under the impression that foreign names pronounced with /h/ took the aspirated h. Are there other German names like that?
A quick search showed instances both of "d'Helmut" and "de Helmut"; in light of the recent G20 meeting, I also took a gander at "Hambourg" and found both "de Hambourg" and "d'Hambourg". If there's an actual prescriptive rule on this, ask the Académie. Perhaps showing off is in play, but who knows (and if you really wanted to impress, why not just pronounce the "h" and have done with it?)? Hypercorrection or lack thereof?

If I were a bettin' man, I'd hazard a guess that there were certain individuals for whom "d'Helmut" and "de Helmut" alternated upon instance, just 'cause. Whatever's happening, I shouldn't lay awake nights on this one.
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
User avatar
lsd
greek
greek
Posts: 740
Joined: 11 Mar 2011 21:11
Contact:

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by lsd »

The rule is the rule... Even if usage is... usage...
Moreover, the aspirated H is even not sure with foreign name...
Even more with the bad pronunciation of proper name copied on in its foreign pronunciation...
Trebor
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 164
Joined: 24 Nov 2014 18:53

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Trebor »

Unlike in English--

(1) This empty pop bottle has clearly been stepped on.

(2) At family gatherings, the man's ex-wife is never spoken of.

--a pseudopassive construction is apparently absent from most natlangs. Apart from the one I've encountered in (Modern Standard) Arabic*, which will use a resumptive pronoun, what alternative strategies are available?

(3) taHaddath-naa `ann al=mushkilat-i.
converse\PST-1PL about the=problem-OBL
We talked about the problem.

(4) al=mushkilat-u taHuddith-at `ann-ha.
the=problem-NOM converse\PASS-3SG.FEM about-3SG.FEM
The problem was talked about./(more literally) The problem was talked about it.

*Corrections are welcome; I'm not fluent yet.
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

What exactly are you talking about? Just the preposition stranding?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2945
Joined: 10 Nov 2012 20:52
Location: California

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 »

Trebor seems to mean the fact that the English/Arabic passive can be used to promote non-direct objects.
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

Oh, okay, thanks [:)]
In German passive kind of works with prepositional objects too.

Ich trete auf den Teppich.
1SG.NOM step on the.ACC.M.SG carpet
I stepped on the carpet

Auf den Teppich wurd-e ge-tret-en.
on the.ACC.M.SG carpet AUX.PASS-1SG.PRS PTCP-step-PTCP
The carpet has been stepped on.

But this might actually be an impersonal passive with object topicalization cf.

Es wurd-e auf den Teppich ge-tret-en.
it AUX.PASS-1SG.PRS on the.ACC.M.SG carpet PTCP-step-PTCP
The carpet has been stepped on.

Indonesian has the option to use a combination of an applicative and a passive.

Anak ini sudah di-baca-kan cerita.
child DEM.PROX already PASS-read-APPL story
This child has already been read a story to (don't know if this is correct English)

Also somewhat colloquial:

Kalau bertemu dengan keluarga, mantan isteri tidak biasa di-bicara-in.
If meet with family, ex.spouse wife NEG usually PASS-talk-APPL
At family gatherings, the ex-wife is never spoken of. (though this particular word has the connotation of gossip)
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
Trebor
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 164
Joined: 24 Nov 2014 18:53

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Trebor »

Dormouse559 wrote:Trebor seems to mean the fact that the English/Arabic passive can be used to promote non-direct objects.
Yes, you are correct [:)]

And thanks for those examples, Creyeditor. I wonder what other non-IE languages do (like Inuktitut, Nenets, Somali, Tswana, Yoruba, or Quechua)...
User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2945
Joined: 10 Nov 2012 20:52
Location: California

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 »

Creyeditor wrote:Anak ini sudah di-baca-kan cerita.
child DEM.PROX already PASS-read-APPL story
This child has already been read a story to (don't know if this is correct English)
Not quite. English ditransitive sentences can be phrased two ways: with "to" (I've already read a story to this child.) or without "to" (I've already read this child a story.) A passive sentence promoting the recipient is always based on the form without "to". So you should say, "This child has already been read a story".
Trebor wrote:Yes, you are correct [:)]
Yay!

Wish I knew a non-IE language well enough to contribute further. All I can say is the French passive only promotes direct objects. For non-direct objects, you usually make an active construction with the impersonal pronoun on as the subject.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 »

Does anyone have any resources about what happens to languages under extreme stress from rapid population decrease, and reconsolidation of a dialect continuum? I'd especially like to hear about conditions in Europe and North America.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6352
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

qwed117 wrote:Does anyone have any resources about what happens to languages under extreme stress from rapid population decrease, and reconsolidation of a dialect continuum? I'd especially like to hear about conditions in Europe and North America.
I know the answer to the polar question you actually asked: "Yes, someone has such resources".
But I don't know the answer to the question you meant; I don't know what any such resources are nor how to get my hands on them.
I, too, am curious. I, also, want to know.
User avatar
Isfendil
greek
greek
Posts: 668
Joined: 19 Feb 2016 03:47

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Isfendil »

eldin raigmore wrote:
qwed117 wrote:Does anyone have any resources about what happens to languages under extreme stress from rapid population decrease, and reconsolidation of a dialect continuum? I'd especially like to hear about conditions in Europe and North America.
I know the answer to the polar question you actually asked: "Yes, someone has such resources".
But I don't know the answer to the question you meant; I don't know what any such resources are nor how to get my hands on them.
I, too, am curious. I, also, want to know.
I do not even understand this question. My question is What does this question mean?
User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6352
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

Isfendil wrote:
qwed117 wrote:Does anyone have any resources about what happens to languages under extreme stress from rapid population decrease, and reconsolidation of a dialect continuum? I'd especially like to hear about conditions in Europe and North America.
I do not even understand this question. My question is What does this question mean?
My guess was qwed117 meant:
qwed117 might have, but I guess nobody actually, wrote:When a natlang's speakership suddenly or rapidly drops below a certain number of speakers -- 500,000 or 50,000 or 5,000 or 500 , or , 100,000 or 10,000 or 1,000 -- does anything special happen to it, as compared to a decline either not so sudden, or not so rapid, or to not so low a population?

In particular, if the language's L1-speakers had been geographically (or otherwise) widespread before the decline, it probably would have had dialects.
But after a precipitous decline to near-morbidity, its speakership would no longer be able to support such a variety in dialects.
So what would happen to the dialects? Would they coalesce? If so, how? If not, what would happen instead?

In particular; Has anything been published on such things having happened, (or currently happening!), in Europe or North America?

Who, on this BBoard, knows of some resources about such things?
And if anyone does, would they please tell us what they are? And preferably also how to access them?
If that's not what qwed117 meant, I hope they'll correct me.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 »

eldin raigmore wrote:
Isfendil wrote:
qwed117 wrote:Does anyone have any resources about what happens to languages under extreme stress from rapid population decrease, and reconsolidation of a dialect continuum? I'd especially like to hear about conditions in Europe and North America.
I do not even understand this question. My question is What does this question mean?
My guess was qwed117 meant:
qwed117 might have, but I guess nobody actually, wrote:When a natlang's speakership suddenly or rapidly drops below a certain number of speakers -- 500,000 or 50,000 or 5,000 or 500 , or , 100,000 or 10,000 or 1,000 -- does anything special happen to it, as compared to a decline either not so sudden, or not so rapid, or to not so low a population?

In particular, if the language's L1-speakers had been geographically (or otherwise) widespread before the decline, it probably would have had dialects.
But after a precipitous decline to near-morbidity, its speakership would no longer be able to support such a variety in dialects.
So what would happen to the dialects? Would they coalesce? If so, how? If not, what would happen instead?

In particular; Has anything been published on such things having happened, (or currently happening!), in Europe or North America?

Who, on this BBoard, knows of some resources about such things?
And if anyone does, would they please tell us what they are? And preferably also how to access them?
If that's not what qwed117 meant, I hope they'll correct me.
That's roughly what I meant. I didn't realize that my question was ambiguous/hard to understand.
I'm also gonna add a little portion. Imagine that the speakers had a dialect continuum. During the "rapid decline" in speakership, the dialect continuum is broken apart. But on the other hand, due to "movement" among speakers, in an attempt to survive in a community with the same language, the speakers of extremely different dialects are forced together. What happens to dialects in that situation? Do grammatical features that are different between the dialects "fight" for usage? Do the features coalesce into a hodgepodge? Do they change in meaning?
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1765
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn »

What is the term for the opposite of the genitive case, i.e the case that marks the noun that is possessed and are there any languages that mark a noun like this without also marking the genitive?
User avatar
MrKrov
banned
Posts: 1929
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 02:47
Location: /ai/ > /a:/
Contact:

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by MrKrov »

I think the construct state counts as this. Typically in Afro-Asiatic, also Fijian has a nonagreeing possessive suffix. Not really a case per se tho.
User avatar
Frislander
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2088
Joined: 14 May 2016 18:47
Location: The North

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Frislander »

All4Ɇn wrote:What is the term for the opposite of the genitive case, i.e the case that marks the noun that is possessed and are there any languages that mark a noun like this without also marking the genitive?
Well it's not really a case as such, since a possessed noun can take basically any syntactic role (aside from possessor). There's some variation in terminology: it's one of the functions of the Semitic construct state while Algonquian has a "possessed theme" suffix for possessed alienable nouns. Probably the safest bet is just to call it a "possessed (marker)".

Absolutely there are languages like this: the Algonquian family is one (there are most likely other North American language families with this as well). You could also sort of analyze Nahuatl (and many other Uto-Aztecan languages) in that way as well, since nouns take an "absolute" suffix when they have no other marking, and lose it when they are possessed. I should expect that there are Semitic languages which lost their case endings but kept the construct state, which this could fall under. However in all of these cases the possessed-ness marking is accompanied by some kind of pronominal affix marking the possessor: I don't know of a language which relies just of the possessed marker and apposing the possessor.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 »

All4Ɇn wrote:What is the term for the opposite of the genitive case, i.e the case that marks the noun that is possessed and are there any languages that mark a noun like this without also marking the genitive?
Wikipedia suggests that the terminology is simply the "Possessed case"
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1765
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn »

Thanks for the replies! So if I were to create a language that uses a construction similar to Turkish where the possessor is marked with the genitive and is followed by the possessed noun in the nominative suffixed with a variation of his/her, would it be possible to consider the possessed noun to be in its own case?
User avatar
Frislander
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2088
Joined: 14 May 2016 18:47
Location: The North

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Frislander »

All4Ɇn wrote:Thanks for the replies! So if I were to create a language that uses a construction similar to Turkish where the possessor is marked with the genitive and is followed by the possessed noun in the nominative suffixed with a variation of his/her, would it be possible to consider the possessed noun to be in its own case?
That's just suffixing the possessed noun with a pronominal possessive suffix, it's not its own case at all.
User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1765
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn »

Frislander wrote:That's just suffixing the possessed noun with a pronominal possessive suffix, it's not its own case at all.
Even if the noun cannot change cases in the situation? Thanks for the info also
Locked