(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here [2010-2019]

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Lambuzhao
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao »

Lao Kou wrote:
GrandPiano wrote:
Lao Kou wrote:
GrandPiano wrote:
Iyionaku wrote:Does anyone know where the simplified character 书 (book) comes from? I can't really see how it may have derived from 書.
书 was most likely derived from the cursive form of 書.
There's this.
That link won't open in the browser I'm using. What's the content?
It's a 5½ minute schmooze, in Mandarin, about the history of the character 书. It talks you through, and gives visual examples of, the 甲骨文,金文,篆书,隶书,楷书,行书,and 草书 forms of the character. It's aimed at Chinese students, so it wraps up with a rousing discussion of how characters are a treasure of Chinese heritage and how good Chinese people should develop and foster within themselves a deep understanding and appreciation of them.
Thanks. I though I was the only one. I got nice pics of female Chinese models, though. Thanks for that!
Oh, and thanks for the concise explanation of what I missed, Kou.

:mrgreen:
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Iyionaku »

Okay the video was almost ununderstandable for me (gosh, I'm not even A1 yet). However, the input you guys provided proved to be right, I found an image that, I'd say, closed the case for me.

Image
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lao Kou »

Lambuzhao wrote:
GrandPiano wrote:
Lao Kou wrote:There's this.
That link won't open in the browser I'm using. What's the content?
Thanks. I thought I was the only one. I got nice pics of female Chinese models, though. Thanks for that!
Oh, and thanks for the concise explanation of what I missed, Kou.
Sorry, guys. Who'd a thunk there'd be problems hopping the Great Fire Wall to the outside, particularly with something as banal as an educational video on characters? [O.o] Still, if Iyionaku, who posed the original question, got to see it, I guess my work here is done. [:P]
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Lambuzhao
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao »

Lao Kou wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:
GrandPiano wrote:
Lao Kou wrote:There's this.
That link won't open in the browser I'm using. What's the content?
Thanks. I thought I was the only one. I got nice pics of female Chinese models, though. Thanks for that!
Oh, and thanks for the concise explanation of what I missed, Kou.
Sorry, guys. Who'd a thunk there'd be problems hopping the Great Fire Wall to the outside, particularly with something as banal as an educational video on characters? [O.o] Still, if Iyionaku, who posed the original question, got to see it, I guess my work here is done. [:P]

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

I've now gained some understanding of how Germanic strong verb derive from PIE ablaut.
Slavonic verbs also have irregular stem alternations. Is there any "easy" way to explain them from PIE?
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn »

In older varieties of Portuguese, was there ever a distinction between the meaning and use of the pluperfect (fizera) and the compounded pluperfect (tinha feito)?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Iyionaku »

Is there a language universal that states something similar to:

"If a language has both dual and plural, the plural forms are always morphologically more complex than the dual forms"? I am afraid that one of my conlangs would otherwise violate that rule.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by DesEsseintes »

Iyionaku wrote:Is there a language universal that states something similar to:

"If a language has both dual and plural, the plural forms are always morphologically more complex than the dual forms"? I am afraid that one of my conlangs would otherwise violate that rule.
Yes, there are universals that state:

Universal Number 578
IF a dual and a plural are distinguished in the 1st person exclusive form of a pronoun, THEN they are also distinguished in the inclusive.

Universal Number 716
IF any further grammatical oppositions are expressed in forms marked for dual number, THEN the same oppositions will also be expressed in forms marked for plural number (Uspensky 1968: 9).

Skou, I believe, breaks both, by marking gender in dual forms, but not plural forms.

The lesson of the story is, you can break universals, if you really want to. However, it's generally considered preferable to have a cool story how this unusual setup came about. Do share! [:)]
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Iyionaku »

DesEsseintes wrote: Skou, I believe, breaks both, by marking gender in dual forms, but not plural forms.
This is essentially what Paatherye does atm, and the "cool history" was that I was bored of having another collective plural and hence shifted Paatherye's number system from Singular - Plural - Collective to Singular - Dual - Plural without changing anything else (i.e. the old plural forms became the new dual forms).
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus »

Iyionaku wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote: Skou, I believe, breaks both, by marking gender in dual forms, but not plural forms.
This is essentially what Paatherye does atm, and the "cool history" was that I was bored of having another collective plural and hence shifted Paatherye's number system from Singular - Plural - Collective to Singular - Dual - Plural without changing anything else (i.e. the old plural forms became the new dual forms).
That seems improbable to me. Surely the collective would become the dual?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Iyionaku »

Salmoneus wrote:
Iyionaku wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote: Skou, I believe, breaks both, by marking gender in dual forms, but not plural forms.
This is essentially what Paatherye does atm, and the "cool history" was that I was bored of having another collective plural and hence shifted Paatherye's number system from Singular - Plural - Collective to Singular - Dual - Plural without changing anything else (i.e. the old plural forms became the new dual forms).
That seems improbable to me. Surely the collective would become the dual?
...would you say that such a process would be naturalistic by any means? I wouldn't have a problem with it, though.
Edit: On the other hand, I wouldn't really have to integrate it into the conhistory.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

DesEsseintes wrote:... you can break universals, if you really want to. However, it's generally considered preferable to have a cool story how this unusual setup came about. Do share!
[+1] [+1] [tick] [+1]
Amen to that!
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguoFranco »

Does anyone have any sources on Miyako phonology? I couldn't find much on it.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

Glottolog mentions an article in a collection, but I could not finde it. Maybe you are luckier?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar »

I'm trying to rework the sound changes for Visigothic so that it doesn't sound so much like Modern Spanish, and I want to develop and retain some of the sibilants that Spanish has lost, but I can't find any information on how they developed in the Iberian Romance languages, only on how those languages have merged them with other sounds over time. Can anyone help me out here, or at least point me in the direction of where this information might be?

To clarify, I've read that Old Spanish had /t͡s d͡z s̺ z̺ ʃ ʒ t͡ʃ/. There's plenty of information on how that system developed into the modern era. However, I've been unable to find any information, really, on how exactly all those sibilants developed from (Vulgar) Latin.
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Post by ixals »

Excuse me if it is not detailed enough, but I am on mobile right now (and I am tired and a bit drunk as well, so I'll try my best). I once had a detailed source about this somewhere but I'm not able to find it anymore so I'll just write down what I still know:

/s/: From Latin /s/ at the beginning and at the end of words as well as intervocalic /s:/, but also from consonant clusters like /ps/ or /rs/ for example
/z/: Simply from non-geminated intervocalic /s/
/t͡ʃ/: I think this comes from Latin /kt/, but I think there are likely other (likely irregular) sources of this that I don't know right now
/ʒ/: This definitely comes from earlier palatalised /l/ as in words like filium (> hijo) or oculus (> ojo). Spanish palatalisation of velars was weird as far as I know, but some instances come from palatalised /g/ before front consonants also most of the time it turned into a voiced palatal fricative
/ʃ/: I don't know about this one to be honest. Sometimes geminated /s/ turned into /ʃ/ or /ʒ/ like in bassum > bajo
/t͡s/: From Latin /k/ before front consonants at the beginning of a word. Intervocalic /k:j/ as well as /tj/.
/d͡z/: Intervocalic single /kj/ or intervocalic /k/ before front consonants

This is all I know without looking at any sources right now. Of course some other Iberian languages did it differently. Portuguese turned a lot of initial clusters like /kl/ or /pl/ into /t͡ʃ/ > /ʃ/. Portuguese also turned /sj/ and /s:j/ into /jʒ/ and /jʃ/ like in cāseum > queijo.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 »

Ixals has practically summed it all up. Only thing I might add is that queso < caseum could have the intermediate *kaesu in Pre-Old Spanish.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Sumelic »

I think Latin /ks/ regularly turned into Old Spanish /ʃ/, which is why it was written with <x>. There were probably other sources though.

A good source is https://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/i.e.mackenzie/cons.htm
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao »

[quote="ixals" ]/t͡ʃ/: I think this comes from Latin /kt/, but I think there are likely other (likely irregular) sources of this that I don't know right now[/quote]

Nice summation, ixals!

There is at least one more for the above: :lat: /lt/ multum [->] mucho; cultellum [->] cuchillo; auscultare [->] escuchar

This was not consistent, though. Cf. multo -> muy, and vulturem -> buitre (If i'm not mistaken, a shift in stress and/or loss of a syllable might have created these anomalies


Ralph Penny (2004), Variation and Change in Spanish
p. 105, among other pp.

Boyd-Bowman, Peter (1980) From Latin to Romance in Sound Charts
https://books.google.com/books?id=z0RbX ... to&f=false



Also, :lat: /ps/ -> /x/ if I'm not mistaken
capsam -> caxa -> caja 'box'


Also
Vulg. :lat: *capseam -> *quexada -> quijada 'jawbone'


Though, these might have gone through a velarization /ps/ -> /ks/

I am reminded of how Spanish speakers today consistently (mis)pronounce pepsi as 'pecsi', or descripción as 'descricsión'.

[:D]
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao »

Completely other topic.

I tried copypasta'ing Greek Acrophonic Attic Pente (5) {y'know, the letter that looks like a well-hung uppercase Gamma}, and I was disallowed.

Same with the Greek three obols sign.

[:S] [:(] [:'(]

Any chance they could be included into this website's scripts, or whatever needs inclusion?

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