(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here [2010-2019]

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Lambuzhao
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao »

shimobaatar wrote:I'm trying to rework the sound changes for Visigothic so that it doesn't sound so much like Modern Spanish, and I want to develop and retain some of the sibilants that Spanish has lost, but I can't find any information on how they developed in the Iberian Romance languages, only on how those languages have merged them with other sounds over time. Can anyone help me out here, or at least point me in the direction of where this information might be?

To clarify, I've read that Old Spanish had /t͡s d͡z s̺ z̺ ʃ ʒ t͡ʃ/. There's plenty of information on how that system developed into the modern era. However, I've been unable to find any information, really, on how exactly all those sibilants developed from (Vulgar) Latin.

If you can get your mitts, or cybermitts, on a copy of Ralph Penny's Variation and Change in Spanish - that'll help (helped me a lot in Grad School)
https://books.google.com/books?id=h7Qhx ... sh&f=false

Paul Lloyd's From Latin to Spanish: is available online:
https://books.google.com/books?id=_QkNA ... sh&f=false

Also check out
Boyd-Bowman, Peter (1980) From Latin to Romance in Sound Charts
https://books.google.com/books?id=z0RbX ... to&f=false

If you can hunt down a copy of Agustín Mateos M. (1959) Etimologías latinas del español , this is a fun resource, b/c the "etimologías' are arranged thematically by sound change - muy noice!
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar »

Thank you guys for your help!
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Lambuzhao
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao »

All4Ɇn wrote:In older varieties of Portuguese, was there ever a distinction between the meaning and use of the pluperfect (fizera) and the compounded pluperfect (tinha feito)?
This looks like it might help (at least from the simple Pluperfect p.o.v.)

María Teresa Brocado Portuguese Pluperfect: Elements for a Diachronic Approach

http://www.clunl.edu.pt/resources/docs/ ... ocardo.pdf

I hope it bears some light on the matter!
[:D]
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by ixals »

Does anyone know of a detailed summary on Slavic syntax (preferably Serbo-Croation, Slavic, Ukrainian and Proto-Slavic/OCS, but anything will do I think)? I only found basic summaries that didn't go in further detail concerning adverbial placement, more complicated sentences etc.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

I feel like Haspelmath might cite some literature.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguoFranco »

Does anyone have resources for the evolution of fusional morphology? I want to create a fusional conlang that started out non-fusional and either agglutinating or analytic, and I need some real life examples. I'm looking into Skolt Sami, Estonian, and Hindi. Idk if the latter was ever not fusional.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Alomar »

Has anyone else noticed the metathesis (correct process?) in American English of 'breakfast' to /brɛ.fɪks/?

I've noticed this in two totally separate people (family member from Midwest b 1960s) and coworker in Boston from South Florida b 1980s.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

Alomar wrote:Has anyone else noticed the metathesis (correct process?) in American English of 'breakfast' to /brɛ.fɪks/?
I've noticed this in two totally separate people (family member from Midwest b 1960s) and coworker in Boston from South Florida b 1980s.
That may or may not be metathesis -- I don't know.

But: I have never heard that substitution!

I'm from (northern) East Texas (not the panhandle)/southwestern Arkansas; born early 1950s.
I lived in/near Houston Tx from early 70s to mid 90s.
I've lived in southeast Michigan since mid 1990s.

I don't know whether any of that explains anything.
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Post by Lambuzhao »

Wow. Never heard that.
:wat:
I have heard
/brɛk.fɪs/

and once in a while

/bɛk.fɪs/ ~ /bɛk.fɪst/

Beaming in from SE :us-pa:
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

LinguoFranco wrote:Does anyone have resources for the evolution of fusional morphology? I want to create a fusional conlang that started out non-fusional and either agglutinating or analytic, and I need some real life examples. I'm looking into Skolt Sami, Estonian, and Hindi. Idk if the latter was ever not fusional.
Maybe you've already seen this and this.
If not, you can still take a look, I hope!
When you've seen them, maybe they'll have told you something relevant to your question that you wanted to know.
(If they don't; I'm sorry. [:'(] [:$] )
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Xonen
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Xonen »

Alomar wrote:metathesis (correct process?) in American English of 'breakfast' to /brɛ.fɪks/?
According to Wikipedia, that would be "nonadjacent metathesis, long-distance metathesis,[1] or hyperthesis[3]".

Also, apocope of the final /t/.
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Post by Lambuzhao »

Ah, yes. Apocope.
I remember it well.

Just like the famous Apocope of Marshall, Will and Holly, subject of many works of art and iconography during the Byzantine Dormition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3Qehtte0bQ

a.k.a. The Netherdrese of One Thousand Feet

Whoops. That's apoptosis.

I meant…

Just like the famous Triune Apocope of King Akai Shodaime during Little Ice Age of the Zōhui Shogunate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDLb7I4-uN4
(skip to 8:15)

Suwatch!
[}:D]

:wat:
holbuzvala
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by holbuzvala »

Are there langs without a passive voice or passive construction? I've noticed in the Translations section there are many exercises for passives. As my current lang currently stands, it has polypersonal marking and free word order, so I don't think it needs a 'passive' as such. Ergo, I feel there MUST be natlangs that do the same, but I thought I'd ask here to make sure.
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Post by Thrice Xandvii »

Is there a language that lacks /k/? How about one that lacks [k] even as an allophone?
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Post by eldin raigmore »

holbuzvala wrote:Are there langs without a passive voice or passive construction? I've noticed in the Translations section there are many exercises for passives. As my current lang currently stands, it has polypersonal marking and free word order, so I don't think it needs a 'passive' as such. Ergo, I feel there MUST be natlangs that do the same, but I thought I'd ask here to make sure.
Short answer: Yes.
See the WALS.info chapters and features about such topics.
http://wals.info/chapter/107 Passive Constructions (and its accompanying feature map), by Anna Siewierska, shows languages without passive constructions outnumbering languages with passive constructions 211 to 162 among languages in WALS's sample database for which that feature was recorded. That is, about 56.6% of their sample don't have passive constructions.

All of the chapters & features from 106 through to 111 have to do with what might broadly be called "voice".

Code: Select all

106  Reciprocal Constructions                  Elena Maslova and Vladimir P. Nedjalkov
107  Passive Constructions                     Anna Siewierska
108  Antipassive Constructions                 Maria Polinsky
109  Applicative Constructions                 Maria Polinsky
110  Periphrastic Causative Constructions      Jae Jung Song
111  Nonperiphrastic Causative Constructions   Jae Jung Song

[hr][/hr]
Thrice Xandvii wrote:Is there a language that lacks /k/?
Short answer: Yes.
http://menzerath.phonetik.uni-frankfurt.de/cgi-bin/upsid_sounds.cgi wrote: The 'voiceless velar plosive' sounds do not occur in these languages:

Language (sounds)
BANDJALANG (16)
BERTA (29)
CHEROKEE (17)
DYIRBAL (16)
HUPA (35)
JOMANG (21)
KEWA (20)
KLAO (27)
KWAIO (21)
MBABARAM (24)
USAN (20)
VANIMO (28)
YIDINY (16)

These 13 languages are 2.88% of all languages in UPSID.
Spoiler:
The criterion 'voiceless velar plosive' matches with these sounds:

Sound Description Sound occurs in % of UPSID's languages
Nk prenasalized voiceless velar plosive 1.33%
NkJ prenasalized palatalized voiceless velar plosive 0.22%
NkW prenasalized labialized voiceless velar plosive 0.22%
Nkh prenasalized voiceless aspirated velar plosive 0.22%
hk voiceless preaspirated velar plosive 0.22%
k voiceless velar plosive 89.36%
k* laryngealized voiceless velar plosive 1.33%
k9 pharyngealized voiceless velar plosive 0.22%
k: long voiceless velar plosive 0.67%
kJ palatalized voiceless velar plosive 2.88%
kJh palatalized voiceless aspirated velar plosive 0.67%
kW labialized voiceless velar plosive 13.30%
kW* laryngealized labialized voiceless velar plosive 0.44%
kW: long labialized voiceless velar plosive 0.44%
kWh labialized voiceless aspirated velar plosive 4.66%
kh voiceless aspirated velar plosive 22.84%
khh voiceless velar plosive with breathy release 0.44%
klF voiceless velar plosive with alveolar lateral fricative release 0.22%

These 18 sounds make 1.96% of all 919 sounds in UPSID
Thrice Xandvii wrote:How about one that lacks [k] even as an allophone?
I don't know how to find out.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Sumelic »

Thrice Xandvii wrote:Is there a language that lacks /k/? How about one that lacks [k] even as an allophone?
I'm pretty sure the answer is "yes" to both, although I'm not familar with a lot of examples. Probably there is some database that could be searched.

My understanding is that there are some particular speech communities that lack [k] for some Polynesian languages. E.g. although Hawaiian has "diaphonemic" identification of [k] and [t], I think there are some dialects that, at least historically, didn't use [k] as an allophone. I also haven't found any description of [k] being used as a normal allophone of /t/ in Tahitian, although apparently Tahitians do at least perceive [k] and [g] as /t/.

I know that there are also a few languages in North America that only have /kʲ/ and /q/ or /kʲ/ and /kʷ/ or something like that, although I'm not particularly familar with the usual patterns of allophony, so maybe [k] occurs in some of these. (Also, I know that some languages of this sort do have a plain velar series, it's just marginal and less common than the other two, kind of like the situation that is sometimes hypothesized for PIE, An example is Hupa.)
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by holbuzvala »

@elgin

Thanks! Just what I was looking for.

@all

Another quick q: are there any languages that have fewer than 5 contrasting vowels? Arabic has 3 vowels, but with length distinctions that makes a six-way contrast, so i was wondering if it could be any less than 'the five basic ones'.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Iyionaku »

holbuzvala wrote: Another quick q: are there any languages that have fewer than 5 contrasting vowels? Arabic has 3 vowels, but with length distinctions that makes a six-way contrast, so i was wondering if it could be any less than 'the five basic ones'.
Quick question, quick answer: Yes.

There are at least four languages that have only two contrastive vowel phonemes. The extinct Northwest Caucasian language Ubykh, for example, had only one open vowel phoneme /a/ and one closed vowel phoneme /ə/ (then, on the other hand, a crazy amount of 84 phonemic consonants). WALS online states 93 languages with fewer than four vowel phonemes.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao »

holbuzvala wrote:Are there langs without a passive voice or passive construction? I've noticed in the Translations section there are many exercises for passives. As my current lang currently stands, it has polypersonal marking and free word order, so I don't think it needs a 'passive' as such. Ergo, I feel there MUST be natlangs that do the same, but I thought I'd ask here to make sure.
An interesting case is Coptic.

Although there is no pure passive voice in Coptic, some verbs have fossilized passive-forms with a tem-vowel change (mostly /o:/ --> /e:/ ), or an ending-vowel change (/o/ --> /e:v/ )

KѠ [ko:] 'to put'
KH [ke:] 'to be put'

TAKO [ta.ko] 'to destroy'
TAKHY [ta.ke:v] 'to be destroyed'


Apart from those stem-vowel changers, most occasions of the passive are rendered with the active 3PL.SBJ prefixed form of the verb.

AYϪOOC ϨITM ΠЄПPOФHTHC
[av.go.ʔos ħi.təm pe.pro.fe:.te:s]
3PL.SBJ=say=3SG.F.OBJ PRP DEF.M.SG=prophet
It was said by the prophet
Lit. they said it by/from the prophet

There's always this weird feeling at first of "who the heck is 'they'?" , but, after a while, one gets used to the construction and its not biggie.
It certainly wasn't for the Copts, though they seemed to lean towards more active-voiced constructions.

In my :con: Rozwi, the intransitive stative or copulative form of the verb is the base form (or supposed to be), and active counterparts are to be formed with the prefix /zor/

E.g.

fyebe 'to have a _____ taste', 'to taste (e.g. good, bad, sour, bitter, umami)'
zorfyebe Lit. 'to taste', 'to receive the flavor of something' (wine, food, grandma's stew)', but, over time, it has become the defacto word for 'to eat'
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Post by Ælfwine »

Anyone know of resources on Hungarian?

I'm not looking for a thousand page thesis as much as an overview of its historical sound laws, diachronics and grammar.
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