(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here [2010-2019]

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Sumelic
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Sumelic »

Creyeditor wrote: Wiese btw cited in the WR-thread has to assume contrastive syllabification at some point something like /raɪ̯.zn̩/ vs. /raɪ̯s.n̩/, if devoicing applies syllable finally.
I see. I think the other somewhat plausible argument would be that intervocalic is a virtual geminate, which is at least consistent with its historical origin. This doesn't require contrastive syllabification: "reisen" is /raɪsən/ (or somthing like that--ignore the vowel phonemes), syllabified as /raɪ.sən/ due to the maximal onset principle, with the /s/ voiced because it is syllable-initial, while "reißen" is /raɪssən/; since /ss/ is not a valid onset, syllabified as /raɪs.sən/; since the first /s/ falls into a syllable coda, it is regularly voiceless, and then some minor process of geminate simplification/coalescence results in the surface pronunciation being /raɪ̯sn̩/ rather than /raɪ̯szn̩/. (From what I understand, this simplification rule would have to be made optional in compound words, but that's not really unusual I think.) The distribution of contrastive environments for and [z] in German is similar to the distribution of contrastive environments for [r] and [ɾ] in Spanish.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

Sumelic wrote:
Creyeditor wrote: Wiese btw cited in the WR-thread has to assume contrastive syllabification at some point something like /raɪ̯.zn̩/ vs. /raɪ̯s.n̩/, if devoicing applies syllable finally.
I see. I think the other somewhat plausible argument would be that intervocalic is a virtual geminate, which is at least consistent with its historical origin. This doesn't require contrastive syllabification: "reisen" is /raɪsən/ (or somthing like that--ignore the vowel phonemes), syllabified as /raɪ.sən/ due to the maximal onset principle, with the /s/ voiced because it is syllable-initial, while "reißen" is /raɪssən/; since /ss/ is not a valid onset, syllabified as /raɪs.sən/; since the first /s/ falls into a syllable coda, it is regularly voiceless, and then some minor process of geminate simplification/coalescence results in the surface pronunciation being /raɪ̯sn̩/ rather than /raɪ̯szn̩/. (From what I understand, this simplification rule would have to be made optional in compound words, but that's not really unusual I think.) The distribution of contrastive environments for and [z] in German is similar to the distribution of contrastive environments for [r] and [ɾ] in Spanish.

This would be what I consider highly abstract: assuming a geminate that never surfaces. A more concrete (as in the opposite of abstract) analysis yields one phoneme more, so I guess both of them have their advantages.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Iyionaku »

Are there any (many) languages that have a Prohibitive like (dummy word) "John hin" (John must not) and allowance is "John hin not" (John may), but no "John may" directly?

Also what is the linguistic term for the mood of allowance ("may") and a recommendment ("should")? I created the terms "Deontive" and "Opportive" in my Yélian language specification but I'd prefer common terms.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao »

Iyionaku wrote:Are there any (many) languages that have a Prohibitive like (dummy word) "John hin" (John must not) and allowance is "John hin not" (John may), but no "John may" directly?
Negative Jussive / Prohibitive in :lat: uses 'Noli(te)' w/ INF of the verb.
If I remember rightly, :grc: uses special NEG μή + IMPTV (or OPTATIVE).
Coptic has a Prohibitive preverb ΜΠЄΡ/ΜΠѠΡ
But this is only three out of 100s of langs. :roll:
Also what is the linguistic term for the mood of allowance ("may") and a recommendment ("should")? I created the terms "Deontive" and "Opportive" in my Yélian language specification but I'd prefer common terms.
Opportive - As good as any. from :lat: opportet makes perfect sense to me.
depending on circumtance,
I think the 'may' type could be a Permissive Mood.
IMHO the 'should' could be a Propositive Mood.
But there are other names as well.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

As I understand it, both "may" and "should" are types of deontic modality.
"may" is permissive.
"should" is (weak or mild) deontic, more properly so-called AIUI and IMO.
Strong deontic would be "must".

See the SIL Glossary of Linguistic Terms .

http://www.glossary.sil.org/term/mood-and-modality
http://www.glossary.sil.org/term/deontic-modality
http://www.glossary.sil.org/term/directive-modality a subcategory of deontic modality
http://www.glossary.sil.org/term/permissive-mood "may" one mood among deontic modalities
http://www.glossary.sil.org/term/obligative-mood "must" another mood among deontic modalities

Not sure what SIL has to say about "should". IMO it's semantically a weaker form of "must", in whatever modality (English's "should" and "must" and "may" have epistemic and alethic uses as well as deontic use.)
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Iyionaku »

Mandarin speakers: How "contemporary" is the Contemporary Mandarin Bible? I.e. would I sound hilarious if I used sentence structures and basic word choices as used in that bible version?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 »

Is there a word for when a word has two opposite meanings (not just homonymy but also polysemy)? Examples include sanction, chuffed, egregious, and :lat: excūsō?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 »

The Oracle at Wiki says "auto-antonym" or "contronym".
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Imralu »

My favourite one is German feierlich which can mean "solemn" ... or "festive".
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

Imralu wrote:My favourite one is German feierlich which can mean "solemn" ... or "festive".
I always thought it meant both at the same time, not either or. Mor like christmas eve than saturday night fever.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Trebor »

Are there any (other) active-stative languages which consistently mark the distinction through noun case and not just verbal affixes? I've found a mere five languages at least somewhat along these lines--Basque, Drehu, Georgian, Imonda, and Laz. The thing is that not all of them are fully active-stative to begin with.

I've read that the Central Sudanic language Mbay lacks personal pronouns; can anyone provide more information than Wikipedia, in a forum post or via a link? Might the system be comparable to Wichita? (See "Poor pronoun systems and what they teach us".)
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Clio »

Sumelic wrote:
TwistedOne151 wrote:But then, how do you indicate a short vowel before voiced [z]? Or does that just not occur in German? Thanks.
Correct -- at least, for native vocabulary.
Doesn't Assi have a short vowel followed by [z]? That's a weird example for a few reasons, but it's what popped into my head.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

True, but this is indeed a special case. It is a word from Nazi times and shortened from 'Asozialer' which has a long vowel. Some people also write it 'Asi'. I am not sure if there are people that pronounce it that way.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn »

I was watching some French news and they were talking about "les funérailles d'Helmut Kohl". My question is shouldn't it be "de Helmut" considering his name would be pronounced with an H in German?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Iyionaku »

Creyeditor wrote:True, but this is indeed a special case. It is a word from Nazi times and shortened from 'Asozialer' which has a long vowel. Some people also write it 'Asi'. I am not sure if there are people that pronounce it that way.
Today I learned that Assi (degenerated person) and Assi (short for assistant) are pronounced differently: [ˈazi] vs. [ˈasi]. *mindblown*

In Swabia we don't have the /z/ phoneme, all alveolar fricatives are voiceless (funny enough that we distinguish /ʃ/ and /ʒ/ productively while Standard German doesn't, though.)
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by lsd »

All4Ɇn wrote:I was watching some French news and they were talking about "les funérailles d'Helmut Kohl". My question is shouldn't it be "de Helmut" considering his name would be pronounced with an H in German?
in french, Helmut is not pronunced with aspirated h (except those pedants that try to show their knwolege in tongue...), so...
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

Iyionaku wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:True, but this is indeed a special case. It is a word from Nazi times and shortened from 'Asozialer' which has a long vowel. Some people also write it 'Asi'. I am not sure if there are people that pronounce it that way.
Today I learned that Assi (degenerated person) and Assi (short for assistant) are pronounced differently: [ˈazi] vs. [ˈasi]. *mindblown*

In Swabia we don't have the /z/ phoneme, all alveolar fricatives are voiceless (funny enough that we distinguish /ʃ/ and /ʒ/ productively while Standard German doesn't, though.)
I don't want to start a discussion on the first meaning of Assi, but one should just watch out, when using it.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn »

lsd wrote:in french, Helmut is not pronunced with aspirated h (except those pedants that try to show their knwolege in tongue...), so...
Is this an exception to the normal rules? I was under the impression that foreign names pronounced with /h/ took the aspirated h. Are there other German names like that?
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Post by Isfendil »

What is a good sketch or quick-facts-style grammar or cheat sheet for Imperial Aramaic? Any resources on Old Aramaic as well would be appreciated.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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