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PostPosted: Tue 15 May 2012, 22:51 
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Maximillian wrote:
Someone somewhere here mentioned that there are languages that mark specificity instead of definiteness.

IIRC Turkish is one of them.


Maximillian wrote:
What's the deal with that?

What do you mean?

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PostPosted: Tue 15 May 2012, 23:09 
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eldin raigmore wrote:
Maximillian wrote:
Someone somewhere here mentioned that there are languages that mark specificity instead of definiteness.

IIRC Turkish is one of them.

At least on direct objects. Accusative case is used for specific direct objects. Non-specific direct object take the nominative case. There is apparently also an indefinite article. All this yields the following three -way distinction (examples from BJ Blake 'Case':

Hasan öküz-ü aldı
Hasan ox-ACC bought
'Hasan bought the ox'

Hasan bir öküz-ü aldı
Hasan INDEF ox-ACC bought
'Hasan bought and ox' (specific)

Hasan bir öküz-Ø aldı
Hasan INDEF ox-NOM bought
'Hasan bought and ox' (non-specific)

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PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2012, 09:07 
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eldin raigmore wrote:
What do you mean?

How is it different from definiteness? Examples? Where can I find more information about it?

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PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2012, 13:46 
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Maximillian wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
What do you mean?

How is it different from definiteness? Examples? Where can I find more information about it?

Specificity means that the article is referring to a specific example of its kind. Definiteness means that the thing has already been mentioned. So, for instance:

1p. want SPEC-car

would mean that she wants a specific car, not any of the other ones. Whereas:

1p. want DEF-car

would mean that she wants the already mentioned car.

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PostPosted: Thu 17 May 2012, 01:37 
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Maximillian wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
What do you mean?
How is it different from definiteness?

I think Solarius explained it adequately enough, nevertheless I'm going to explain it too.

Specific is a synonym for referential.
Edit: This use of "specific" is a synonym for this use of "referential". When discussing something other than the pragmatic status of a noun-phrase, these terms are likely to be non-synonymous.


A use of a noun phrase is a specific or referential use, if the speaker has a specific one, or specific ones, in mind, to which s/he is referring.

A use of a noun phrase is a definite use, if, not only is it specific, but the speaker reasonably expects that the addressee knows to which one (or ones) the speaker is referring.

Since specificity/referentiality vs nonspecifcity/nonreferentiality, and definiteness vs indefiniteness, are largely pragmatic differences: exactly where the division between specific and nonspecific, and between definite and indefinite, is drawn, varies somewhat from language to language.


Maximillian wrote:
Examples?

An example of a specifc but indefinite noun-phrase is "some shirts" in "I went and bought some shirts". I obviously know which shirts I bought, but I obviously don't expect you to know.


Maximillian wrote:
Where can I find more information about it?

I haven't looked to see how good these are, but maybe some or even all of these:

http://www.azlifa.com/definite-indefinite-referential-generic-specific-expression/
http://www.azlifa.com/page/6/
http://www.ilg.uni-stuttgart.de/vonHeusinger/pub/pub02/specificity.php
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~kemmer/Colloq/Colloq0708/nagaya.html
http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/55/82/04/PDF/Definiteness.PDF
http://www.ub.edu/ccil/sites/default/files/Heusinger-Specific%20Indefinites%20-From%20Intentionality%20to%20Indexicality2012_0.pdf

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Last edited by eldin raigmore on Fri 18 May 2012, 19:36, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 17 May 2012, 16:13 
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I think I understand switch-reference. It is where the verb is marked for whether or not the subject is the same as in the previous clause, right? How does it interact with relative clauses? Do I have any significant misconceptions?

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PostPosted: Thu 17 May 2012, 21:23 
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Hi! New here and I have a question about the relation between two German words, aufgehoben and aufheben. I know a little tiny bit about linguistics, but almost nothing of German. Help, please!

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PostPosted: Thu 17 May 2012, 21:53 
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vasubandhu wrote:
Hi! New here and I have a question about the relation between two German words, aufgehoben and aufheben. I know a little tiny bit about linguistics, but almost nothing of German. Help, please!

aufgehoben is the perfect participle of aufheben, which is the infinitive. (basically like 'rescinded' vs 'to rescind')

Edit: If I misunderstood your question feel free to specify :) Also, for questions specifically about German, there's this thread

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PostPosted: Fri 18 May 2012, 19:18 
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Solarius wrote:
I think I understand switch-reference. It is where the verb is marked for whether or not the subject is the same as in the previous clause, right?

Fundamentally, yes.

Except that for many or most languages with switch-reference marking, the reference clause is after the marked clause instead of before it. (The direction in which the switch-reference refers is statistically correlated with the "word"-order.)

Also, the reference clause may be the anchor clause (initial clause in some 'langs, final clause in others) of the clause-chain, rather than the immediately preceding or immediately following clause.

Also, sometimes the switch-reference marker specifies not only "same subject" and "different subject", but also or instead "same object" vs "different object". (Mostly even ergative switch-reference-marking languages track "same agent vs different agent", but not all do.)

And, sometimes it marks whether the marked clause's subject is the same as or different from some other core participant of the reference clause; that is some of its values may mean "marked clause's subject is referenced clause's direct object" or "marked clause's subject is referenced clause's indirect object", as well as "marked clause's subject is referenced clause's subject" and "marked clause's subject is not a core argument of referenced clause".

And sometimes the marker distinguishes between identity and proper containment. That is, in addition to a value meaning "marked clause's subject is referenced clause's subject", another value might mean "marked clause's subject is one of or some of referenced clause's subject" if the referenced clause's subject is non-singular, and another value might mean "marked clause's subject contains referenced clause's subject" if the marked clause's subject is non-singular, and another value would mean "marked clause's subject neither contains nor is contained in referenced clause's subject".

You could look up what I wrote about Adpihi's (my conlang's) switch-reference system; it's quite typical except for one thing.
That is:
In Adpihi one value of the marker means both/either "marked clause's subject properly contains referenced clause's subject" and/or "marked clause's subject is properly contained in referenced clause's subject" and leaves the addressee to disambiguate based on gender and grammatical number; but another value means "marked clause's subject is exactly identical to referenced clause's subject".
But, in most natlangs with switch-reference marking that marks proper containment, one direction of proper containment is marked just like identity, and the addressee must disambiguate somehow; while the other direction of proper containment is marked differently.


Solarius wrote:
How does it interact with relative clauses?

Subordinate clauses don't occur in languages with switch-reference marking (this sentence may be "almost true" instead of "true").

A clause is subordinate to another clause if both:
it is contained in it and plays a role in it (as if a noun or an adjective or an adverb) and;
it is dependent on it (its semantics depend on the semantics of the containing clause).

In clause-chaining switch-reference-marking languages a "subordinate" clause must be either the first or the last element of the matrix clause it's embedded in and dependent on; and there can be only one such "subordinate" clause. But the languages don't strongly distinguish between co-ordination and sub-ordination. You might call it "cosubordination".


Solarius wrote:
Do I have any significant misconceptions?

I can't tell. AFAIK nothing you've said so far indicates any significant misconception.




BTW; if your switch-reference-marking system tracks two participants of the marked clause (like Adpihi's tracks both the marked clause's subject and its object), and mark their relationship possibly to more than one participant of the referenced clause, the clauses in a clause-chain will have to satisfy the "principle of disjoint reference". That is to say, if such a clause has two or more core participants (such as a subject and an object), then the individual or group referred to by one core participant (for instance the subject) cannot be the same as, nor be contained in, nor contain, nor overlap with, the individual or group referred to by any other core participant (such as the object).

Of course that will require that the language have good productive reflexive voice and reciprocal voice processes.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch-reference
http://cnrs.academia.edu/YvonneTreis/Papers/766515/Switch-reference_and_Omotic-Cushitic_language_contact_in_Southwest_Ethiopia
http://benjamins.com/#catalog/books/tsl.2 (I highly recommend this book.)
http://people.wm.edu/~jbmart/papers/cr_switch_reference.pdf
http://www.sil.org/acpub/repository/Ke-A_switch_reference_marker_Mankanya.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koasati_language
http://www.wikinfo.org/index.php/Koasati_language maybe; that link may be broken.
http://ling.uni-konstanz.de/pages/proj/Sprachbau/introduction/examples.html but I'm not sure how strong these statistical implications are.
http://pilarvalenzuela.com/Shipibo_Language.html




http://www.dogpile.com/search/web?fcoid=417&fcop=topnav&fpid=2&q=clause-chaining&ql=




http://www.dogpile.com/search/web?fcoid=417&fcop=topnav&fpid=2&q=principle+of+disjoint+reference&ql=

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Last edited by eldin raigmore on Fri 18 May 2012, 20:53, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri 18 May 2012, 20:22 
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Thank you, Aszev! Very helpful. Sorry I posted in the wrong thread. [:$]

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PostPosted: Fri 18 May 2012, 20:41 
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eldin raigmore wrote:
--Terrific answer--

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Fri 18 May 2012, 20:56 
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Solarius wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
--Terrific answer--
Thanks!

Thanks for saying "thanks"! [:)]
The cockles of my [<3] are all warmed now.

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PostPosted: Tue 22 May 2012, 17:03 
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eldin raigmore wrote:
Fundamentally, yes.

Except that for many or most languages with switch-reference marking, the reference clause is after the marked clause instead of before it. (The direction in which the switch-reference refers is statistically correlated with the "word"-order.)

What would SOV word order be correlated with?

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PostPosted: Wed 23 May 2012, 02:36 
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If a language does not distinguish number within it's nouns, will it also not distinguish number within its pronouns?

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PostPosted: Wed 23 May 2012, 08:10 
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QuantumWraith wrote:
If a language does not distinguish number within it's nouns, will it also not distinguish number within its pronouns?

No, that is not the case. Mandarin is a counterexample; it does not mark number on nouns, but it does on pronouns.

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PostPosted: Wed 23 May 2012, 08:12 
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To give another counterexample: Navajo distinguishes plurality in its pronouns, but not in normal nouns. (Well, technically there's the distributive affix, but that's not what you mean.)

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PostPosted: Wed 23 May 2012, 23:04 
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Solarius wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
.... for many or most languages with switch-reference marking, the reference clause is after the marked clause instead of before it. (The direction in which the switch-reference refers is statistically correlated with the "word"-order.)
What would SOV word order be correlated with?


in this thread, I wrote:
As I understand it:

Verb-initial clause-chaining languages tend to have the first clause in the chain be the anchor clause; and
verb-initial switch-reference languages tend to have the referenced clause before the marked clause. (Maybe always the anchor clause; maybe always the previous clause; or maybe just any prior clause; I'm not sure how many languages adopt which rule.)

Verb-final clause-chaining languages tend the have the last clause in the chain be the anchor clause; and
verb-final switch-reference languages tend to have the referenced clause after the marked clause. (Maybe always the anchor clause; maybe always the next clause; or maybe just any later clause; I'm not sure how many languages adopt which rule.)


As for verb-medial languages, I'm not sure, but I think SVO clause-chaining languages' clause-chains tend to be anchored by their first clause, and SVO switch-reference-marking languages' marked clauses tend to be marked in reference to earlier clauses in their chain. I'm not sure there even are any OVS clause-chaining or switch-referencing languages.

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PostPosted: Wed 23 May 2012, 23:15 
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Trailsend wrote:
QuantumWraith wrote:
If a language does not distinguish number within it's nouns, will it also not distinguish number within its pronouns?

No, that is not the case. Mandarin is a counterexample; it does not mark number on nouns, but it does on pronouns.

Well, strictly speaking, you can attach the plural marker -men to some nouns (those with human referents, primarily), but yeah... Number marking is at least more regular on pronouns. And anyway, there are plenty of languages where pronouns distinguish, say, case while nouns don't, so I see no reason why the same couldn't apply to number in some language out there.

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PostPosted: Fri 25 May 2012, 02:07 
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Xonen wrote:
Well, strictly speaking, you can attach the plural marker -men to some nouns (those with human referents, primarily), but yeah... Number marking is at least more regular on pronouns. And anyway, there are plenty of languages where pronouns distinguish, say, case while nouns don't, so I see no reason why the same couldn't apply to number in some language out there.

Is that the rule? I haven't read up on it, but I didn't mention it because I've gotten the sense that the non-pronouns you can mark number on are very restricted. E.g., I've never heard anyone say

*xuesheng-men
student-PL

*laoshi-men
teacher-PL

*fuyuan-men
steward-PL

(or any other occupation-based term)

*zhongguo-ren-men
china-person-PL

(or any other compound ending in ren)

*nüzi-men
woman-PL

*fuqin-men
father-PL

(or just about any other family-based terms)


But I often hear

pengyou-men
friend-PL

haizi-men
child-PL


Again though, I am not a native speaker and I haven't read the literature on this. I'm just sharing my own experience with what I've heard.

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PostPosted: Fri 25 May 2012, 15:29 
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Trailsend wrote:
Xonen wrote:
Well, strictly speaking, you can attach the plural marker -men to some nouns (those with human referents, primarily), but yeah... Number marking is at least more regular on pronouns. And anyway, there are plenty of languages where pronouns distinguish, say, case while nouns don't, so I see no reason why the same couldn't apply to number in some language out there.

Is that the rule? I haven't read up on it, but I didn't mention it because I've gotten the sense that the non-pronouns you can mark number on are very restricted. E.g., I've never heard anyone say

*xuesheng-men
student-PL

I'm no expert on the subject, either, but this exact form occurs in my beginner-level Chinese textbook, at least.

EDIT: No, wait, that could've been tongxuemen; I don't have the book at hand right now, so I can't check. Anyway, Google gives 1060 hits for xueshengmen, and over 31 million for "学生们".

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