Grammatical number
Grammatical number
This might have been done before, but here goes. If your language has grammatical number on nouns, where do you draw the line between singular and plural? Or even paucal and dual? How do you handle fractions? Or zero of something?
Integers:
One/a boy
Two boys
Three boys
Fractions:
Half a cake/one half cake
One and a half cake(s)
Three quarters of a cake
Zero:
Zero boys
No boys
Not a single boy
Absence of boys
More or less:
More than one boy(s)
Less than two boys
These last ones come down to whether you think of "more" or "less" as part of the determiner or with scope over the whole NP.
(More than one) boys
or
More than (one boy)
Integers:
One/a boy
Two boys
Three boys
Fractions:
Half a cake/one half cake
One and a half cake(s)
Three quarters of a cake
Zero:
Zero boys
No boys
Not a single boy
Absence of boys
More or less:
More than one boy(s)
Less than two boys
These last ones come down to whether you think of "more" or "less" as part of the determiner or with scope over the whole NP.
(More than one) boys
or
More than (one boy)
Native: | Fluent: | Less than fluent: , , | Beginner: , :fao:,
Creating: Jwar Nong, Mhmmz
Creating: Jwar Nong, Mhmmz
Re: Grammatical number
Xioran (I have renamed it, but I forgot the new name. )
nay hemele (no boys; 'nay' is the number zero)
uyn hemele (one/a boy; 'uyn' is the number one)
duho hemele (two boys)
triso hemele (three boys)
sumi hemele (at least one boy, 'sumi' means non-zero)
uyns hemele (more than one boy; 'uyns' is the plural)
pakin hemele (few boys; paucal)
ley uyn hemele => ley hemele (the boy)[uyn is omitted]
ley uyns hemele => les hemele (the boys)['ley uyns' becomes 'les']
Half a cake/one half cake
avo duho ta kayle
FRACTION two COMPL cake
One and a half cake(s)
uyn puras avo duho ta kayle
one plus FRACTION two COMPL cake
Three quarters of a cake
triso avo kwate ta kayle
three FRACTION two COMPL cake
More than one boy(s) (numerical)
hima uyn hemele
more_than one boy
Less than two boys
haxo duho hemele
less_than two boy
More than (one boy) (An airplane is more than a bus.)
wofre hima uyn hemele
worth more_than one boy (more worth than one boy)
nay hemele (no boys; 'nay' is the number zero)
uyn hemele (one/a boy; 'uyn' is the number one)
duho hemele (two boys)
triso hemele (three boys)
sumi hemele (at least one boy, 'sumi' means non-zero)
uyns hemele (more than one boy; 'uyns' is the plural)
pakin hemele (few boys; paucal)
ley uyn hemele => ley hemele (the boy)[uyn is omitted]
ley uyns hemele => les hemele (the boys)['ley uyns' becomes 'les']
Half a cake/one half cake
avo duho ta kayle
FRACTION two COMPL cake
One and a half cake(s)
uyn puras avo duho ta kayle
one plus FRACTION two COMPL cake
Three quarters of a cake
triso avo kwate ta kayle
three FRACTION two COMPL cake
More than one boy(s) (numerical)
hima uyn hemele
more_than one boy
Less than two boys
haxo duho hemele
less_than two boy
More than (one boy) (An airplane is more than a bus.)
wofre hima uyn hemele
worth more_than one boy (more worth than one boy)
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
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Re: Grammatical number
Kala:
Integers:
tahi na'o
One/a boy
tahi ta'o
Two boys
tahi ha'o
Three boys
Fractions:
panutso
Half a cake/one half cake
panu na'o ma tsoya
One and a half cake(s)
panu ihama'o
Three quarters of a cake
Zero:
tahi ye'o
Zero boys
tahik
No boys
tahimpek
Not a single boy
nke tahim
Absence of boys
More or less:
ke tahi na'o maha
More than one boy(s)
ke tahi ta'o ohi
Less than two boys
Integers:
tahi na'o
One/a boy
tahi ta'o
Two boys
tahi ha'o
Three boys
Fractions:
panutso
Half a cake/one half cake
panu na'o ma tsoya
One and a half cake(s)
panu ihama'o
Three quarters of a cake
Zero:
tahi ye'o
Zero boys
tahik
No boys
tahimpek
Not a single boy
nke tahim
Absence of boys
More or less:
ke tahi na'o maha
More than one boy(s)
ke tahi ta'o ohi
Less than two boys
g
o
n
e
o
n
e
Re: Grammatical number
Elcuin:
This uses the Reformed Number System, used in mathematics but not in everyday life (I haven't invented the common system yet )
One/a boy
Two boys
Three boys
na cerm one boy-NOM.sing
ta cerm two boy-NOM.sing
sa cerm three boy-NOM.sing
Half a cake/one half cake
One and a half cake(s)
Three quarters of a cake
tant pire two-reciprocal cake-NOM.sing
na la tant pire one and two-reciprocal cake-NOM.sing
sa pant pire three four-reciprocal cake-NOM.sing
Zero boys
No boys
Not a single boy
Absence of boys
a cerm zero boy-NOM.sing
nerco na cerm even=not one boy-NOM.sing
naco cermon to_be-NOM.sing-not boy-NOM.pl
More than one boy(s)
Less than two boys
aimarsa ter na cerm great-SUPL in_respect_to one boy-NOM.sing
aimarca ter ta cerm great-SUPL.NEG in_respect_to two boy-NOM.sing
Singular and plural have a specific meaning in Elcuin. Singular is used when talking about something you know the number of (here's why I used the singular everywhere here, except in one sentence), plural is for things you don't know the number of, or you know it but it isn't important to you. There's also the total, which means "all of" and simply changes the l/n of the plural into an r (but it's quite old-fashioned).
I used the plural only in naco cermon, because it means "not being there any boy"; generally, with the English some/any Elcuin uses the plural because it semantically has to do with undefined quantities
This uses the Reformed Number System, used in mathematics but not in everyday life (I haven't invented the common system yet )
One/a boy
Two boys
Three boys
na cerm one boy-NOM.sing
ta cerm two boy-NOM.sing
sa cerm three boy-NOM.sing
Half a cake/one half cake
One and a half cake(s)
Three quarters of a cake
tant pire two-reciprocal cake-NOM.sing
na la tant pire one and two-reciprocal cake-NOM.sing
sa pant pire three four-reciprocal cake-NOM.sing
Zero boys
No boys
Not a single boy
Absence of boys
a cerm zero boy-NOM.sing
nerco na cerm even=not one boy-NOM.sing
naco cermon to_be-NOM.sing-not boy-NOM.pl
More than one boy(s)
Less than two boys
aimarsa ter na cerm great-SUPL in_respect_to one boy-NOM.sing
aimarca ter ta cerm great-SUPL.NEG in_respect_to two boy-NOM.sing
Singular and plural have a specific meaning in Elcuin. Singular is used when talking about something you know the number of (here's why I used the singular everywhere here, except in one sentence), plural is for things you don't know the number of, or you know it but it isn't important to you. There's also the total, which means "all of" and simply changes the l/n of the plural into an r (but it's quite old-fashioned).
I used the plural only in naco cermon, because it means "not being there any boy"; generally, with the English some/any Elcuin uses the plural because it semantically has to do with undefined quantities
Native: | Intermediate: | Basic:
Studied: (+all of the above)
Willing to study: :heb:
(Linguistic noob, fear not to correct me)
Studied: (+all of the above)
Willing to study: :heb:
(Linguistic noob, fear not to correct me)
Re: Grammatical number
Bî doesn't distinguish number on the nouns themselves, but it's distinguished with definite articles as follows:
lr/la/li/lu: singular (one countable object)
ly/lo: plural (more than one countable object or a definite quantity of an uncountable one)
le: "in general"
and indefinite:
qr/qa/qi/qu: singular
qy/qo: plural
qe: partative
For example. (And excuse me if I'm doing this wrong, I'm a bit new to glossing)
The chair
The chairs
The water
Chairs (in general)
Krar lu chair DEF.SG.INAN
Krar lo chair DEF.PL.INAN
Adquî lo water DEF.PL.INAN
Krar le chair DEF.?
A chair
(some) chairs
(some) water
Krar qu* chair NDEF.SG.INAN
Krar qo chair NDEF.PL.INAN
Adquî qe qater NDEF.?
*(could just be "krar"; singular indefinite is omitted for countable nouns)
No fractions yet.
lr/la/li/lu: singular (one countable object)
ly/lo: plural (more than one countable object or a definite quantity of an uncountable one)
le: "in general"
and indefinite:
qr/qa/qi/qu: singular
qy/qo: plural
qe: partative
For example. (And excuse me if I'm doing this wrong, I'm a bit new to glossing)
The chair
The chairs
The water
Chairs (in general)
Krar lu chair DEF.SG.INAN
Krar lo chair DEF.PL.INAN
Adquî lo water DEF.PL.INAN
Krar le chair DEF.?
A chair
(some) chairs
(some) water
Krar qu* chair NDEF.SG.INAN
Krar qo chair NDEF.PL.INAN
Adquî qe qater NDEF.?
*(could just be "krar"; singular indefinite is omitted for countable nouns)
No fractions yet.
Re: Grammatical number
Yélian
Brogoʻi mia
[ˈbroːgoʔi mia]
boy-ENUM one
One boy
Brogoni prena
[ˈbroːgoni ˈprɛna]
boy-PL-ENUM two
Two boys
Brogoni ti
[ˈbroːgoni ti]
boy-PL-ENOM three
Three boys
The first three numbers can be shortened to -m, -p and -t, respectively, in colloquial speech. So it would be brogoʻim, brogonip, brogonit. This is NOT standard and must not be found in any official text!
Rai o'mesól
[raɪ̯ ɔməˈsoːl]
half DEF.GEN=cake
Half a cake
Mia èd rai o'mesól / Mesóli mia èd rai
[ˈmi.a ɛd raɪ̯ ɔməˈsoːl / məˈsoːli ˈmi.a ɛd raɪ̯]
one plus half DEF.GEN=cake / cake-ENUM one plus half
One and a half cakes
Ti o'perta o'mesól
[ti ɔˈpɛɾta ɔməˈsoːl]
three DEF.GEN=four DEF.GEN=cake
Three of four of a cake
Three of four cakes, however would be mesóli ti o'perta.
Brogoni ocút
[ˈbroːgoni ɔˈkut]
boy-PL-ENUM zero
Zero boys
Ce brogo
[kə ˈbroːgo]
DEF.NEG boy
No boys
Ce brogopapam
[kə ˈbroːgoˌpapam]
DEF.NEG boy-single
Not a single boy
(Forth sentence intranslateable)
The last two sentences are not translateable without a verb.
Canabul brogoʻi mia.
[ˈkanɐbʊl ˈbroːgoʔi ˈmi.a]
more-COP.3PL boy-ENUM one
*Are more than one boy
Paratabul brogoni prena.
[ˈparatɐbʊl ˈbroːgoni ˈprɛna]
little-COMP-COP.3PL boy-PL-ENUM two
*Are less than two boys
Brogoʻi mia
[ˈbroːgoʔi mia]
boy-ENUM one
One boy
Brogoni prena
[ˈbroːgoni ˈprɛna]
boy-PL-ENUM two
Two boys
Brogoni ti
[ˈbroːgoni ti]
boy-PL-ENOM three
Three boys
The first three numbers can be shortened to -m, -p and -t, respectively, in colloquial speech. So it would be brogoʻim, brogonip, brogonit. This is NOT standard and must not be found in any official text!
Rai o'mesól
[raɪ̯ ɔməˈsoːl]
half DEF.GEN=cake
Half a cake
Mia èd rai o'mesól / Mesóli mia èd rai
[ˈmi.a ɛd raɪ̯ ɔməˈsoːl / məˈsoːli ˈmi.a ɛd raɪ̯]
one plus half DEF.GEN=cake / cake-ENUM one plus half
One and a half cakes
Ti o'perta o'mesól
[ti ɔˈpɛɾta ɔməˈsoːl]
three DEF.GEN=four DEF.GEN=cake
Three of four of a cake
Three of four cakes, however would be mesóli ti o'perta.
Brogoni ocút
[ˈbroːgoni ɔˈkut]
boy-PL-ENUM zero
Zero boys
Ce brogo
[kə ˈbroːgo]
DEF.NEG boy
No boys
Ce brogopapam
[kə ˈbroːgoˌpapam]
DEF.NEG boy-single
Not a single boy
(Forth sentence intranslateable)
The last two sentences are not translateable without a verb.
Canabul brogoʻi mia.
[ˈkanɐbʊl ˈbroːgoʔi ˈmi.a]
more-COP.3PL boy-ENUM one
*Are more than one boy
Paratabul brogoni prena.
[ˈparatɐbʊl ˈbroːgoni ˈprɛna]
little-COMP-COP.3PL boy-PL-ENUM two
*Are less than two boys
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
Re: Grammatical number
Wena:
Wena's isolating, so probably nothing too exciting here, but I still want to do this for the development of the language.
Integers:
Wena's isolating, so probably nothing too exciting here, but I still want to do this for the development of the language.
Integers:
- nwa dihu
one boy
one/a boy
gwa dihu
two boy
two boys
wege dihu
three boy
three boys
- Fractions in Wena are formed by prefixing vu- 'part' to the number.
(nwa) vugwa gegi
(one) half cake
half a cake / one half cake
nwa me vugwa gegi
one accompany.AG half cake
or:
nwa gegi gwe vugwa
one.E cake and half
one and a half cakes / a cake and a half
wege vuwendo gegi
three quarter cake
three quarters of a cake
- weze dihu
zero boy
or:
ze dihu
NEG.E boy
zero boys / no boys
ze myeba nwa dihu
NEG.E as_much_as/even one boy
not a single boy / let alone one boy / not even one boy
Myeba is kind of the opposite of "merely" and I don't quite know how to gloss it yet. The idea in this sentence is that one would be a significant or comparatively large number. Dropping it would leave the phrase open to being interpreted as "not one boy" (ie. either either zero or more than one).
ni nggwe dihu
air/ABSTRACTA lack.AG boy
absence of boys
- Comparatives are formed in Wena through the opposition of ba ("very", "extreme") and gi ("slight(ly)", "mild"), with the standard of comparison in an adverbial clause.
bawe dihu o gi e nwa
many.E boy ADV mild.E COP two
or:
bawe u gi e nwa dihu
many.E ADV mild.E COP one boy
more than one boy
giwe dihu o ba i gwa
few.E boy ADV extreme.E COP two
or:
giwe u ba i gwa dihu
few.E ADV extreme.E COP two boy
fewer / less than two boys
"More than one boys" is simply ungrammatical for me and I can't recall ever having heard anything like this.CMunk wrote:These last ones come down to whether you think of "more" or "less" as part of the determiner or with scope over the whole NP.
(More than one) boys
or
More than (one boy)
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
________
MY MUSIC | MY PLANTS
________
MY MUSIC | MY PLANTS
Re: Grammatical number
I think what CMunk meant is that there are languages which treat the construction differently, not that it would appear in English. He or she should have set an asterisk before it to make that clear, I guess.
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
Re: Grammatical number
Mandarin (hope I'll do it correctly)
一个男孩
Yī ge nánhái
[iː˨˦ g̥ə nan˨˦xaɪ̯˨˦]
one CL boy
One boy
两个男孩
Liǎng ge nánhái
[lɪ̯aŋ˨˩ g̥ə nan˨˦xaɪ̯˨˦]
two CL boy
Two boys
三个男孩
sān ge nánhái
[san˥ g̥ə nan˨˦xaɪ̯˨˦]
three CL boy
Three boys
半个蛋糕
Bàn gè dàngāo
[b̥an˥˩ g̥ə d̥an˥˩g̥aʊ̯˥]
half CL cake
Half a cake
一个半蛋糕
Yīgè bàn dàngāo
[iː˨˦ g̥ə b̥an˥˩ d̥an˥˩g̥aʊ̯˥]
one CL half cake
One and a half cakes
四反之三的蛋糕
Sì fǎnzhī sān de dàngāo
[sɹ̥˥˩ fan˨˩͡d̥ʐ̥ɻ̩˥ san˥ d̥ə d̥an˥˩g̥aʊ̯˥]
four conversely three GEN cake
Three quarters of a cake
零个男孩
Líng gè nánhái
[lɪŋ˥˩ g̥ə nan˨˦xaɪ̯˨˦]
zero CL boy
Zero boys
没有男孩
Méiyǒu nánhái
[mɛɪ̯˨˦ɪ̯ɔʊ̯˨˩ nan˨˦xaɪ̯˨˦]
not_have boy
no boys
不是一个单一的男孩
Bù shì yī gè dānyī de nánhái
[b̥u˨˦ʂɹ̩˥˩ iː˨˦g̥ə d̥an˥iː˥˩ d̥ə ˈnan˨˦xaɪ̯˨˦]
NEG COP one CL sole GEN boy
Not a single boy
I hope the last ones are right.
一个男孩多
Yī ge nánhái duō
[i˨˦ g̥ə nan˨˦xaɪ̯˨˦ dʊ̯ɔ˥]
one CL boy exceed
More than one boy
均少两个男孩
Jūn shǎo liǎng ge nánhǎi
[͡d̥ɕyn˥ ʂaʊ̯˨˦ lɪ̯aŋ˨˩ g̥ə nan˨˦hai˨˦]
equal less two GEN boy
Less than two boys
Really insecure about the last two ones...
一个男孩
Yī ge nánhái
[iː˨˦ g̥ə nan˨˦xaɪ̯˨˦]
one CL boy
One boy
两个男孩
Liǎng ge nánhái
[lɪ̯aŋ˨˩ g̥ə nan˨˦xaɪ̯˨˦]
two CL boy
Two boys
三个男孩
sān ge nánhái
[san˥ g̥ə nan˨˦xaɪ̯˨˦]
three CL boy
Three boys
半个蛋糕
Bàn gè dàngāo
[b̥an˥˩ g̥ə d̥an˥˩g̥aʊ̯˥]
half CL cake
Half a cake
一个半蛋糕
Yīgè bàn dàngāo
[iː˨˦ g̥ə b̥an˥˩ d̥an˥˩g̥aʊ̯˥]
one CL half cake
One and a half cakes
四反之三的蛋糕
Sì fǎnzhī sān de dàngāo
[sɹ̥˥˩ fan˨˩͡d̥ʐ̥ɻ̩˥ san˥ d̥ə d̥an˥˩g̥aʊ̯˥]
four conversely three GEN cake
Three quarters of a cake
零个男孩
Líng gè nánhái
[lɪŋ˥˩ g̥ə nan˨˦xaɪ̯˨˦]
zero CL boy
Zero boys
没有男孩
Méiyǒu nánhái
[mɛɪ̯˨˦ɪ̯ɔʊ̯˨˩ nan˨˦xaɪ̯˨˦]
not_have boy
no boys
不是一个单一的男孩
Bù shì yī gè dānyī de nánhái
[b̥u˨˦ʂɹ̩˥˩ iː˨˦g̥ə d̥an˥iː˥˩ d̥ə ˈnan˨˦xaɪ̯˨˦]
NEG COP one CL sole GEN boy
Not a single boy
I hope the last ones are right.
一个男孩多
Yī ge nánhái duō
[i˨˦ g̥ə nan˨˦xaɪ̯˨˦ dʊ̯ɔ˥]
one CL boy exceed
More than one boy
均少两个男孩
Jūn shǎo liǎng ge nánhǎi
[͡d̥ɕyn˥ ʂaʊ̯˨˦ lɪ̯aŋ˨˩ g̥ə nan˨˦hai˨˦]
equal less two GEN boy
Less than two boys
Really insecure about the last two ones...
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
Re: Grammatical number
German
Ein Junge
[ʔaɪ̯n ˈjʊŋə]
DEF.MASC.NOM boy
A boy
Zwei Jungen
[t͡svaɪ̯ ˈjʊŋən]
two boy-PL
Two boys
Drei Jungen
[dʁaɪ̯ ˈjʊŋən]
three boy-PL
Three boys
Ein halber Kuchen
[ʔaɪ̯n ˈhalbɐ kʰuːχən]
DEF.MASC.NOM half.MASC.NOM cake
Half a cake
Anderthalb Kuchen
[ˈʔandɐtˌhalp ˈkʰuːχən]
one_and_a_half cake-PL
One and a half cakes
Drei Viertel eines Kuchens
[dʁaɪ̯ ˈfɪɐ̯tʰəl ˈaɪ̯nəs ˈkuːχəns]
three quarter-PL DEF.MASC.GEN cake.GEN
Three quarters of a cake
Null Jungen
[nʊl ˈjʊŋən]
zero boy-PL
Zero boys
Keine Jungen
[kʰaɪ̯nə ˈjʊŋən]
no.PL.NOM boy.PL
no boys
Kein einziger Junge
[kʰaɪ̯n ˈʔaɪnt͡sɪgɐ ˈjʊŋə]
no single.MASC boy
Not a single boy
Mehr als ein Junge
[meːɐ̯ ˈʔals ˈʔaɪ̯n ˈjʊŋə]
much.COMP than INDEF.MASC boy
More than one boy
Weniger als zwei Jungen
[veːˈnɪgɐ ˈʔals t͡svaɪ̯ ˈjʊŋən]
little.COMP than two boy.PL
Less than two boys
Ein Junge
[ʔaɪ̯n ˈjʊŋə]
DEF.MASC.NOM boy
A boy
Zwei Jungen
[t͡svaɪ̯ ˈjʊŋən]
two boy-PL
Two boys
Drei Jungen
[dʁaɪ̯ ˈjʊŋən]
three boy-PL
Three boys
Ein halber Kuchen
[ʔaɪ̯n ˈhalbɐ kʰuːχən]
DEF.MASC.NOM half.MASC.NOM cake
Half a cake
Anderthalb Kuchen
[ˈʔandɐtˌhalp ˈkʰuːχən]
one_and_a_half cake-PL
One and a half cakes
Drei Viertel eines Kuchens
[dʁaɪ̯ ˈfɪɐ̯tʰəl ˈaɪ̯nəs ˈkuːχəns]
three quarter-PL DEF.MASC.GEN cake.GEN
Three quarters of a cake
Null Jungen
[nʊl ˈjʊŋən]
zero boy-PL
Zero boys
Keine Jungen
[kʰaɪ̯nə ˈjʊŋən]
no.PL.NOM boy.PL
no boys
Kein einziger Junge
[kʰaɪ̯n ˈʔaɪnt͡sɪgɐ ˈjʊŋə]
no single.MASC boy
Not a single boy
Mehr als ein Junge
[meːɐ̯ ˈʔals ˈʔaɪ̯n ˈjʊŋə]
much.COMP than INDEF.MASC boy
More than one boy
Weniger als zwei Jungen
[veːˈnɪgɐ ˈʔals t͡svaɪ̯ ˈjʊŋən]
little.COMP than two boy.PL
Less than two boys
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
Re: Grammatical number
Imralu wrote:"More than one boys" is simply ungrammatical for me and I can't recall ever having heard anything like this.CMunk wrote:These last ones come down to whether you think of "more" or "less" as part of the determiner or with scope over the whole NP.
(More than one) boys
or
More than (one boy)
I actually don't remember what I meant at the time. I certainly agree that *more than one boys is ungrammatical in English. But I was probably over-thinking it, which was the reason for the translation challenge in the first place. There are cases, where grammatical number makes little sense, and a language just has to choose a form and stick with it (or leave it to chance).Iyionaku wrote:I think what CMunk meant is that there are languages which treat the construction differently, not that it would appear in English. He or she should have set an asterisk before it to make that clear, I guess.
One such case is listing multiple, distinct items named by the same noun. You can say page one and page two leaving both singular, because there is one of each. You can then delete the second noun through ellipsis and say page one and two, and then English has a tendency to put a plural ending on the noun: pages one and two. But I think this is limited to cases with modifiers following the noun. You can't do the same to a green house and a blue house > a green and a blue house > *a green and a blue houses.
Native: | Fluent: | Less than fluent: , , | Beginner: , :fao:,
Creating: Jwar Nong, Mhmmz
Creating: Jwar Nong, Mhmmz
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- mayan
- Posts: 2080
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- Location: USA
Re: Grammatical number
Mandarin corrections:
I'm still not entirely sure whether [ɤ] gets reduced to [ə] in unstressed syllables; it sounds like it does, but I haven't seen any linguistic descriptions confirming it.
I also changed the IPA to match what I'm used to. Some of it may just be convention, but a lot of it is genuinely more accurate. It's also worth noting that I am not fluent in Mandarin either, so I could be wrong about some of the things I wrote as well.Iyionaku wrote: Mandarin (hope I'll do it correctly)
一个男孩
Yī ge nánhái
[i˧˥ kɤ̆˨ nan˧˥xaɪ̯˧˥]
one CL boy
One boy
两个男孩
Liǎng ge nánhái
[ljɑŋ˨˩ kɤ̆˦ nan˧˥xaɪ̯˧˥]
two CL boy
Two boys
三个男孩
sān ge nánhái
[san˥ kɤ̆˨ nan˧˥xaɪ̯˧˥]
three CL boy
Three boys
半个蛋糕
Bàn ge dàngāo
[pan˥˩ kɤ̆˩ tan˥˩kɑʊ̯˥]
half CL cake
Half a cake
一个半蛋糕
Yī ge bàn dàngāo
[i˧˥ kɤ̆˩ pan˥˧ tan˥˩kɑʊ̯˥]
one CL half cake
One and a half cakes
四分之三的蛋糕
Sì fēn zhī sān de dàngāo
[sz̩˥˩ fən˥ ʈ͡ʂʐ̩˥ san˥ tɤ̆˨ tan˥˩kɑʊ̯˥]
four part GEN three GEN cake
Three quarters of a cake
零个男孩
Líng gè nánhái
[liɤ̯ŋ˧˥ kɤ̆˨ nan˧˥xaɪ̯˧˥]
zero CL boy
Zero boys
没有男孩
Méiyǒu nánhái
[meɪ̯˧˥ joʊ̯˨˩ nan˧˥xaɪ̯˧˥]
NEG have boy
no boys
一个男孩也没有
yī ge nánhái yě méi yǒu
[i˧˥ kɤ̆˨ nan˧˥xaɪ̯˧˥ jɛ˨˩ meɪ̯˧˥joʊ̯˨˩˦]
one CL boy also NEG have
Not a single boy
(也 literally means "also", but in this case it's more like "even")
(If you wanted to phrase it like you had it before, you might be able to say "没有一个单一的男孩"; I'm honestly not sure whether that's something a native speaker would say. In any case, I'm fairly certain that what I have above is more natural.)
There are multiple ways to say the last two. The following is more common in formal writing:
多于一个男孩
duōyú yī ge nánhái
[twɔ˥y˧˥ i˧˥ kɤ̆˨ nan˧˥xaɪ̯˧˥]
more.than one CL boy
More than one boy
少于两个男孩
shǎoyú liǎng ge nánhái
[ʂɑʊ̯˨˩y˧˥ ljɑŋ˨˩ kɤ̆˦ nan˧˥xaɪ̯˧˥]
less.than two CL boy
Less than two boys
Another more broadly applicable way of saying them would be:
不止一个男孩
bùzhǐ yī ge nánhái
[pu˥˩ʈ͡ʂʐ̩˨˩ i˧˥ kɤ̆˨ nan˧˥xaɪ̯˧˥]
more.than one CL boy
More than one boy
不到两个男孩
bùdào liǎng ge nánhái
[pu˧˥tɑʊ̯˥˩ ljɑŋ˨˩ kɤ̆˦ nan˧˥xaɪ̯˧˥]
less.than two CL boy
Less than two boys
(不止 is literally "does not stop (at)"; 不到 is literally "does not arrive (at)")
I'm still not entirely sure whether [ɤ] gets reduced to [ə] in unstressed syllables; it sounds like it does, but I haven't seen any linguistic descriptions confirming it.
- Creyeditor
- MVP
- Posts: 5091
- Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32
Re: Grammatical number
[quote="Iyionaku"] German
Kuchen is really a bad example for illustrating this in German, because singular and plural are homophonous
Here are the same examples with Keks
You should check out the etymology.
Ein halber Keks
ein halb-er Keks
INDEF.M.NOM half-M.NOM.INDEF cookie
Half a cookie
Anderthalb Kekse
anderthalb Keks-e
one_and_a_half cookie-PL
One and a half cookies
Drei Viertel eines Kekses
drei Viertel ein-es Keks-es
three quarter INDEF-M.GEN cookie-GEN[/size]
Three quarters of a cookie
Spoiler:
Here are the same examples with Keks
You should check out the etymology.
Ein halber Keks
ein halb-er Keks
INDEF.M.NOM half-M.NOM.INDEF cookie
Half a cookie
Anderthalb Kekse
anderthalb Keks-e
one_and_a_half cookie-PL
One and a half cookies
Drei Viertel eines Kekses
drei Viertel ein-es Keks-es
three quarter INDEF-M.GEN cookie-GEN[/size]
Three quarters of a cookie
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
Re: Grammatical number
I really had it with "Keks" at first. But then I thought: "Damn, that's a false friend " And changed it to Kuchen.
Pātherye
सुऌ मानु
Sul mānu
[sul ˈmaːnu]
one boy.NOM
One boy
दूठि मैनु
Dūthi maynu
[ˈðuːtʰi ˈmai̯nu]
two boy.DU.NOM
Two boys
ति़ मीनी
Tin mīnī
[tin ˈmiːniː]
three boy.PL.NOM
Three boys
सें हमे पेसारक
Sem hame pesārka
[sem ˈhame peˈsaːrka]
one half.MASC.NOM cake.NOM
Half of a cake
सःपेसारक ति सःहमि
S’pesārka ti s'hami
[speˈsaːɾka ti ˈshami]
INDEF=cake.NOM and INDEF=half.NOM
One and a half of a cake
सःपेसारकु ति़ क्वोतिं
S’pesarku tin kwētim
[speˈsaɾku tin ˈkweːtim]
INDEF=cake.GEN three quarter.PL
Three quarters of a cake
पाव्व मानु
Pāva mānu
[ˈpaːva ˈmaːnu]
zero boy.NOM
zero boys
नीले मानु
Nīle mānu
[ˈniːle ˈmaːnu]
no.MASC.NOM boy.NOM
no boys
नो सःमानु का़यमे
Nē s’mānu kānyame
[neː ˈsmaːnu ˈkaːnjame]
NEG.3SG.MASC INDEF=boy.NOM exist.INF
not a single boy
मोहि खै सुऌ मानु
Mēhi khay sul mānu
[ˈmeːhi kʰai̯ sul ˈmaːnu]
much.COMP than one boy.NOM
more than one boy
मीहॄ खै दूठि मैनु
Mīhu khay dūthi maynu
[ˈmiːhu kʰai̯ ˈðuːtʰi ˈmai̯nu]
little.COMP than two boy.DU.NOM
More than two boys
Pātherye
सुऌ मानु
Sul mānu
[sul ˈmaːnu]
one boy.NOM
One boy
दूठि मैनु
Dūthi maynu
[ˈðuːtʰi ˈmai̯nu]
two boy.DU.NOM
Two boys
ति़ मीनी
Tin mīnī
[tin ˈmiːniː]
three boy.PL.NOM
Three boys
सें हमे पेसारक
Sem hame pesārka
[sem ˈhame peˈsaːrka]
one half.MASC.NOM cake.NOM
Half of a cake
सःपेसारक ति सःहमि
S’pesārka ti s'hami
[speˈsaːɾka ti ˈshami]
INDEF=cake.NOM and INDEF=half.NOM
One and a half of a cake
सःपेसारकु ति़ क्वोतिं
S’pesarku tin kwētim
[speˈsaɾku tin ˈkweːtim]
INDEF=cake.GEN three quarter.PL
Three quarters of a cake
पाव्व मानु
Pāva mānu
[ˈpaːva ˈmaːnu]
zero boy.NOM
zero boys
नीले मानु
Nīle mānu
[ˈniːle ˈmaːnu]
no.MASC.NOM boy.NOM
no boys
नो सःमानु का़यमे
Nē s’mānu kānyame
[neː ˈsmaːnu ˈkaːnjame]
NEG.3SG.MASC INDEF=boy.NOM exist.INF
not a single boy
मोहि खै सुऌ मानु
Mēhi khay sul mānu
[ˈmeːhi kʰai̯ sul ˈmaːnu]
much.COMP than one boy.NOM
more than one boy
मीहॄ खै दूठि मैनु
Mīhu khay dūthi maynu
[ˈmiːhu kʰai̯ ˈðuːtʰi ˈmai̯nu]
little.COMP than two boy.DU.NOM
More than two boys
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
-
- mayan
- Posts: 2080
- Joined: 11 Jan 2015 23:22
- Location: USA
Re: Grammatical number
Spanish
un niño
[un ˈniɲo]
un niño-Ø
one.M.SG boy-SG
one boy or a boy
dos niños
[dos ˈniɲos]
dos niño-s
two boy-PL
two boys
tres niños
[tɾes ˈniɲos]
tres niño-s
three boy-PL
three boys
medio pastel
[ˈmeð̞jo pasˈtel]
medi-o-Ø pastel-Ø
half-M-SG cake-SG
half a cake
un pastel y medio
[um pasˈtel i ˈmeð̞jo]
un pastel-Ø y medi-o-Ø
one.M.SG cake-SG and half-M-SG
one and a half cakes (lit. "a cake and [a] half")
tres cuartos de un pastel
[tɾes ˈkwaɾtos ð̞e um pasˈtel]
tres cuarto-s de un pastel-Ø
three quarter-PL of INDF.M.SG cake-SG
three quarters of a cake
cero niños
[ˈseɾo ˈniɲos]
cero niño-s
zero boy-PL
zero boys
ningunos niños
[niŋˈgunos ˈniɲos]
ningun-o-s niño-s
no-M-PL boy-PL
no boys
ni un solo niño
[ni un ˈsolo ˈniɲo]
ni un sol-o-Ø niño-Ø
not.even INDF.M.SG single-M-SG boy-SG
not a single boy
falta de niños or ausencia de niños
[ˈfalta ð̞e ˈniɲos] or [awˈsensja ð̞e ˈniɲos]
falta-Ø de niño-s, ausencia-Ø de niño-s
absence-SG of boy-PL
absence of boys
más de un niño
[mas ð̞e un ˈniɲo]
más de un niño-Ø
more of one.M.SG boy-SG
more than one boy
menos de dos niños
[ˈmenos ð̞e un ˈniɲo]
menos de dos niño-s
less of two boy-PL
less than two boys
"Un" (a contraction of uno before masculine singular nouns) can be translated as either "one" or "a(n)" depending on the context; I glossed it either one.M.SG or INDF.M.SG depending on the word used in the English translation.
un niño
[un ˈniɲo]
un niño-Ø
one.M.SG boy-SG
one boy or a boy
dos niños
[dos ˈniɲos]
dos niño-s
two boy-PL
two boys
tres niños
[tɾes ˈniɲos]
tres niño-s
three boy-PL
three boys
medio pastel
[ˈmeð̞jo pasˈtel]
medi-o-Ø pastel-Ø
half-M-SG cake-SG
half a cake
un pastel y medio
[um pasˈtel i ˈmeð̞jo]
un pastel-Ø y medi-o-Ø
one.M.SG cake-SG and half-M-SG
one and a half cakes (lit. "a cake and [a] half")
tres cuartos de un pastel
[tɾes ˈkwaɾtos ð̞e um pasˈtel]
tres cuarto-s de un pastel-Ø
three quarter-PL of INDF.M.SG cake-SG
three quarters of a cake
cero niños
[ˈseɾo ˈniɲos]
cero niño-s
zero boy-PL
zero boys
ningunos niños
[niŋˈgunos ˈniɲos]
ningun-o-s niño-s
no-M-PL boy-PL
no boys
ni un solo niño
[ni un ˈsolo ˈniɲo]
ni un sol-o-Ø niño-Ø
not.even INDF.M.SG single-M-SG boy-SG
not a single boy
falta de niños or ausencia de niños
[ˈfalta ð̞e ˈniɲos] or [awˈsensja ð̞e ˈniɲos]
falta-Ø de niño-s, ausencia-Ø de niño-s
absence-SG of boy-PL
absence of boys
más de un niño
[mas ð̞e un ˈniɲo]
más de un niño-Ø
more of one.M.SG boy-SG
more than one boy
menos de dos niños
[ˈmenos ð̞e un ˈniɲo]
menos de dos niño-s
less of two boy-PL
less than two boys
"Un" (a contraction of uno before masculine singular nouns) can be translated as either "one" or "a(n)" depending on the context; I glossed it either one.M.SG or INDF.M.SG depending on the word used in the English translation.
Last edited by GrandPiano on 28 Feb 2017 23:46, edited 1 time in total.
- Dormouse559
- moderator
- Posts: 2945
- Joined: 10 Nov 2012 20:52
- Location: California
Re: Grammatical number
Accidentally posted this in the "more" thread. Reposting it here:
In French, the situation is a bit complicated. The plural is only used for more than one object, so "zero boys" is translated with the singular, but since most French nouns only mark the plural in writing, this isn't always obvious in speech. An example that can be heard in speech is deux chevaux / zéro cheval (/dø‿ʃ.vo | ze.ʁo‿ʃ.val/ - two horse.PL / zero horse.SG - two horses / zero horses).
For the glosses below, I wrote purely written distinctions between {curly brackets}.
French
un garçon
/œ̃ gaʁ.sɔ̃/
INDEF/one.M boy
one/a boy
deux garçons
/dø gaʁ.sɔ̃/
two boy{-PL}
two boys
trois garçons
/tʁwa gaʁ.sɔ̃/
three boy{-PL}
three boys
un demi gâteau / la moitié d'un gâteau
/œ̃‿d.mi gɑ.to | la mwatje dœ̃ gɑ.to/
INDEF.M half cake / DEF-F half of=INDEF.M cake
half a cake/one half cake
un gâteau et demi
/œ̃ gɑ.to e‿d.mi/
INDEF.M cake and half
one and a half cake(s)
trois quarts d'un gâteau
/tʁwa kaʁ dœ̃ gɑ.to/
three quarter{-PL} of=INDEF.M cake
three quarters of a cake
zéro garçon
/ze.ʁo gaʁ.sɔ̃/
zero boy
zero boys
aucun garçon
/o.kœ̃ gaʁ.sɔ̃/
no.M boy
no boys
pas un seul garçon
/pa.z‿œ̃ sœl gaʁ.sɔ̃/
NEG INDEF.M single boy
not a single boy
absence de garçons
/ap.sɑ̃s də gaʁ.sɔ̃/
absence of boy{-PL}
absence of boys
plus d'un garçon
/plys dœ̃ gaʁ.sɔ̃/
more than=one.M boy
more than one boy(s)
moins de deux garçons
/mwɛ̃‿d dœ̃ gaʁ.sɔ̃/
less than two boy{-PL}
less than two boys
In French, the situation is a bit complicated. The plural is only used for more than one object, so "zero boys" is translated with the singular, but since most French nouns only mark the plural in writing, this isn't always obvious in speech. An example that can be heard in speech is deux chevaux / zéro cheval (/dø‿ʃ.vo | ze.ʁo‿ʃ.val/ - two horse.PL / zero horse.SG - two horses / zero horses).
For the glosses below, I wrote purely written distinctions between {curly brackets}.
French
un garçon
/œ̃ gaʁ.sɔ̃/
INDEF/one.M boy
one/a boy
deux garçons
/dø gaʁ.sɔ̃/
two boy{-PL}
two boys
trois garçons
/tʁwa gaʁ.sɔ̃/
three boy{-PL}
three boys
un demi gâteau / la moitié d'un gâteau
/œ̃‿d.mi gɑ.to | la mwatje dœ̃ gɑ.to/
INDEF.M half cake / DEF-F half of=INDEF.M cake
half a cake/one half cake
un gâteau et demi
/œ̃ gɑ.to e‿d.mi/
INDEF.M cake and half
one and a half cake(s)
trois quarts d'un gâteau
/tʁwa kaʁ dœ̃ gɑ.to/
three quarter{-PL} of=INDEF.M cake
three quarters of a cake
zéro garçon
/ze.ʁo gaʁ.sɔ̃/
zero boy
zero boys
aucun garçon
/o.kœ̃ gaʁ.sɔ̃/
no.M boy
no boys
pas un seul garçon
/pa.z‿œ̃ sœl gaʁ.sɔ̃/
NEG INDEF.M single boy
not a single boy
absence de garçons
/ap.sɑ̃s də gaʁ.sɔ̃/
absence of boy{-PL}
absence of boys
plus d'un garçon
/plys dœ̃ gaʁ.sɔ̃/
more than=one.M boy
more than one boy(s)
moins de deux garçons
/mwɛ̃‿d dœ̃ gaʁ.sɔ̃/
less than two boy{-PL}
less than two boys
Re: Grammatical number
Deyryck
aast sên
/aast sœn/
one boy
one boy
past sên
/past sœn/
two boy
two boys
kast sên
/kast sœn/
three boy
three boys
éû rirèya
/eu rirɛja/
0.5 cake
half a cake/one half cake
aastéû rirèya
/aastue rirɛja/
1.5 cake
one and a half cake(s)
gûé rirèya
/gue rirɛja/
0.75 cake
three quarters of a cake
zast sên
/zast sœn/
zero boy
zero boys
nass' sên
/nats sœn/
nothing boy
no boys
léhinû aast sên
/lehinu aast sœn/
even_though+NEG one boy
not a single boy
sôzérima mi sên
/sɔzerima mi sœn/
OPPOSIT+presence of boy
absence of boys
aasit sên
/aasit sœn/
more_than_one boy
more than one boy(s)
pasot sên
/pasot sœn/
less_than_two boy
less than two boys
aast sên
/aast sœn/
one boy
one boy
past sên
/past sœn/
two boy
two boys
kast sên
/kast sœn/
three boy
three boys
éû rirèya
/eu rirɛja/
0.5 cake
half a cake/one half cake
aastéû rirèya
/aastue rirɛja/
1.5 cake
one and a half cake(s)
gûé rirèya
/gue rirɛja/
0.75 cake
three quarters of a cake
zast sên
/zast sœn/
zero boy
zero boys
nass' sên
/nats sœn/
nothing boy
no boys
léhinû aast sên
/lehinu aast sœn/
even_though+NEG one boy
not a single boy
sôzérima mi sên
/sɔzerima mi sœn/
OPPOSIT+presence of boy
absence of boys
aasit sên
/aasit sœn/
more_than_one boy
more than one boy(s)
pasot sên
/pasot sœn/
less_than_two boy
less than two boys
Re: Grammatical number
Ular
矮男一
Rhárăr ów
[rǽɾɑ̂́ɾ ɔ́ʊ̯]
boy one
One boy
矮男二
Rhárăr máng
[rǽɾɑ̂́ɾ mɑ́ŋ]
boy two
Two boys
矮男三
Rhárăr phál
[rǽɾɑ̂́ɾ pʰɑ́l]
boy three
Two boys
糖糕半
Lán'áng ngŭ
[lǽnˈɑ́ŋ ŋû́]
cake half
Half a cake
糖糕一和半
Lán'áng ówphānngŭ
[lǽnˈɑ́ŋ ɔ́ʊfāŋːû̄]
cake one-and-half
One and a half cakes
糖糕四分三
Lán'áng vûrhmõphál
[lǽnˈɑ́ŋ ʋǔ̄ɾmɔ̃́pʰɑ́l]
cake four-split-three
Three quarters of a cake
矮男零
Rhárăr lóng
boy zero
zero boys
不矮男
Ŭ rhárăr
NEG.COP boy
no boys
矮男歌一迷更
Rhárăr kà ów mû ór
boy PART one compared_to more
more than one boy
矮男歌二迷否
Rhárăr kà máng mû khō
boy PART two compared_to less
less than two boys
矮男一
Rhárăr ów
[rǽɾɑ̂́ɾ ɔ́ʊ̯]
boy one
One boy
矮男二
Rhárăr máng
[rǽɾɑ̂́ɾ mɑ́ŋ]
boy two
Two boys
矮男三
Rhárăr phál
[rǽɾɑ̂́ɾ pʰɑ́l]
boy three
Two boys
糖糕半
Lán'áng ngŭ
[lǽnˈɑ́ŋ ŋû́]
cake half
Half a cake
糖糕一和半
Lán'áng ówphānngŭ
[lǽnˈɑ́ŋ ɔ́ʊfāŋːû̄]
cake one-and-half
One and a half cakes
糖糕四分三
Lán'áng vûrhmõphál
[lǽnˈɑ́ŋ ʋǔ̄ɾmɔ̃́pʰɑ́l]
cake four-split-three
Three quarters of a cake
矮男零
Rhárăr lóng
boy zero
zero boys
不矮男
Ŭ rhárăr
NEG.COP boy
no boys
矮男歌一迷更
Rhárăr kà ów mû ór
boy PART one compared_to more
more than one boy
矮男歌二迷否
Rhárăr kà máng mû khō
boy PART two compared_to less
less than two boys
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.