Non-finite verb forms

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H.Á.
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by H.Á. »

:con: Naeniusk (Begonian):

(1) Váčilut halvad váčparåk.
[ˈʋaʊ̯.tʃi.lʏʰt ˈhal.ʋɐ ˈʋaʊ̯tʃ.pa.ɾɒʰk]
sleep-GER cat-ABS sleep-like-3SG.PRES.IND
váč-ilut halvad-Ø váč-par-ak

= The sleeping cat likes to sleep.

(2) Øtumog halvadi raðgamparak.
[ˈɦø.tʏ̃.mʊ ˈhal.ʋa.ðaɪ̯ ˈɾað.gãm̥ˌpa.ɾaʰk]
dog-ERG cat-ACC smell-like-3SG.PRES.IND
øtum-og halvad-i raðgam-par-ak

= The dog likes to smell the cat.

The finite verb in (1) ends in -åk, because of the back vowel [ʊ̯] in the root. In (2) the finite verb ends in -ak because of the [a] in the last syllable of the stem [ˈɾað.gãm̥]. In Begonian, [a] is considered a front vowel.
Also, inserting <par> doesn't influence the vowel harmony.
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by Lao Kou »

Image Géarthnuns

Chau teshers héfalör la ba héf fautail.
[tʃɔ 'tɛʃɛɾs 'hefaløɾ ˌla ba 'hef fɔ'tajl]
DEF cat-NOM sleep.PRES.PTPL-NOM AUX.PRES PTCL sleep like
The sleeping cat likes to sleep.

Chö ngarebs la chau teshersaut ba dimbarasuth fautail.
[tʃø 'ŋaɾɛbs 'la tʃɔ tɛ'ʃɛɾsɔt ba ˌdɪmbaɾa'suth fɔ'tajl]
DEF dog-NOM AUX.PRES DEF cat-ACC PTCL smell like
The dog likes to smell the cat.
Last edited by Lao Kou on 26 Mar 2016 06:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by Iyionaku »

The sleeping cat likes to sleep. The dog likes to smell the cat.

:con: Yélian
An'avárinevats zusinevet. A'teriys zusyanet an'avár.
[anaˌvaːrɪˈneːvɐt͡s cʊsiˈneːvɪt | aˈtɛr͜aiːs cʊsˈʃaːnɪt anaˈvaːr]
ANIM cat-sleep-ADZ like-sleep-3SG | ANIM dog like-smell-3SG ANIM cat.
Last edited by Iyionaku on 25 Nov 2014 07:20, edited 1 time in total.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by eldin raigmore »

Iyionaku wrote:The sleeping cat likes to sleep. The dog likes to smell the cat.

:con: Yélian
An'avárinevats zusinevet. A'teriys zusyanet an'avár.
[anaˌvaːrɪˈneːvɐt͡s cʊsiˈneːvɪt | aˈtɛr͜aiːs cʊsˈʃaːnɪt anaˈvaːr]
ANIM cat-sleep-GER like-sleep-3SG | ANIM dog like-smell-3SG ANIM cat.
In English, "sleeping" in "sleeping cat" is a verbal adjective, not a verbal noun.
It is a participle, not a gerund.
In English,
it is an active participle, not a passive participle;
or a present participle, not a past participle;
or an imperfective participle, not a perfective participle..

If your language works differently from that you need to explain.
English's gerunds and its active participles are spelled the same and sound the same.
That's not true of most languages.
Why does your conlang do exactly like English here? Why does it share such a rare idiosyncracy with English?

OTOH, "to sleep" in "like to sleep", and "to smell" in "like to smell", are verbal nouns in English.
They are infinitives.
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by Lambuzhao »

:con: Rozwi

ʔantmotraorfueni yemren yeklæk mrēnæ. Čulmotraorfueni yeklæk zorθyēbæ ʔantmotraorfueniθ.
cat-NOM PRES.PPL-sleep like-PRES.3SG sleep<NMLZ> | dog-NOM like-PRES.3SG PERCEP-reek<NMLZ> cat-ACC

The sleeping cat likes sleeping. The dog likes smelling the cat.
Spoiler:
In less colloquial Rozwi, the infinitives are used:

ʔantmotraorfueni yemren yeklæk done~maran. Čulmotraorfueni yeklæk done~zorθyebe ʔantmotraorfueniθ.

However, the verbal noun form is taking over uses originally reserved for the infinitive.
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by eldin raigmore »

Lambuzhao wrote:The sleeping cat likes sleeping. The dog likes smelling the cat.
In English the second sleeping -- the one in "likes sleeping" -- is a verbal noun, specifically a gerund.
So is the "smelling" in "likes smelling".

If we said
"the dog thinks the cat is pleasant to smell",
that "to smell" would be a verbal adverb, that is, a supine; it modifies the adjective "pleasant".
English's supines look and sound just like its infinitives.
That's not really unusual. Lots of languages don't have a "supine" that looks or sounds any different from some other verb form.
Some do. Latin was one; some Scandinavian languages are some; and so on.

Even if both finite verbs and non-finite verbs have voice (as in English's transitive verbs and their participles), there's no reason they couldn't have a different voice-system in the finite verbs from the non-finite verbs.
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by Plusquamperfekt »

:con: Miwonša

The sleeping cat likes to sleep. The dog likes to smell the cat.

Kaika lufjanša lufimahjan. Hanza ša kaikaš mitiwa mahjan.
cat-SG sleep=NOM.SG sleep-like-IPFV. dog=NOM.SG to cat-DAT=SG smell-INF like-IPFV.

The dog thinks the cat is pleasant to smell.

Hanza raičan stai sja čanhi ša kaikaš mitiwa.
dog=NOM.SG think-IPFV that this pleasant to cat=DAT.SG smell-INF
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by Micamo »

:con: Project Midnight

waʔermiyoskarah waʔerskares. erhar waʔermiyodigaʔwaris.
waʔ-er-miyo-skar-a-h waʔ-er-skar-es | er-har waʔ-er-miyo-digaʔ-wari-s
FACT-3zs.A-cat-sleep-EPEN-STAT FACT-3zs.A-sleep-like-HAB | 3zs-dog FACT-3zs.A-cat-smell-like-HAB
The sleeping cat likes to sleep. The dog likes to smell the cat.
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by Iyionaku »

eldin raigmore wrote:
Iyionaku wrote:The sleeping cat likes to sleep. The dog likes to smell the cat.

:con: Yélian
An'avárinevats zusinevet. A'teriys zusyanet an'avár.
[anaˌvaːrɪˈneːvɐt͡s cʊsiˈneːvɪt | aˈtɛr͜aiːs cʊsˈʃaːnɪt anaˈvaːr]
ANIM cat-sleep-ADZ like-sleep-3SG | ANIM dog like-smell-3SG ANIM cat.
In English, "sleeping" in "sleeping cat" is a verbal adjective, not a verbal noun.
It is a participle, not a gerund.
In English,
it is an active participle, not a passive participle;
or a present participle, not a past participle;
or an imperfective participle, not a perfective participle..

If your language works differently from that you need to explain.
English's gerunds and its active participles are spelled the same and sound the same.
That's not true of most languages.
Why does your conlang do exactly like English here? Why does it share such a rare idiosyncracy with English?

OTOH, "to sleep" in "like to sleep", and "to smell" in "like to smell", are verbal nouns in English.
They are infinitives.
You're right; Gerund is the wrong word for that. I will call it "Adjectivizer", abbreviated ADZ, in the future. Thank you!
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by Thakowsaizmu »

:tan:
Paka alalaye anapenda alale
/'pɑ.kɑ ɑ.lɑ.'lɑ.jɛ ɑ.nɑ.pɛ.'ⁿdɑ.nɑ ɑ.'lɑ.lɛ/
paka a-lala-ye a-na-penda a-lal-e
cat 3ps-sleep-REL 3ps-PRES-like 3ps-sleep-SUBJ
The sleeping cat likes to sleep.


Mbwa anapenda anuse paka
/'m̩.bʷɑ ɑ.nɑ.'pɛ.ⁿdɑ ɑ.'nu.sɛ 'pɑ.kɑ/
mbwa a-na-penda a-nus-e paka
dog 3ps-PRES-like 3ps-smell-SUBJ cat
The dog likes to smell the cat.
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by thetha »

Fiz
ku'uh anosən miciməh ano.
cat NFNT-sleep-PART like-3S NFNT-sleep
The sleeping cat likes to sleep.

saaci micim a'elan ku'uhis.
dog like NFNT-smell cat-ACC
The dog likes to smell the cat.
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by Chagen »

:con: Pazmat 2.0:

Pazmat has non-finite forms, but much prefers subordinated clauses with finite forms.

Ticā zvṛparā ukū na zvṛpū
cat-DEF.SG.NOM sleep-PTCPL-PRES.ACT-ATHEM-DEF.SG.NOM like.AOR-3S=SUB sleep.AOR-3S
The sleeping cat likes that it sleeps

Qrūlit ukū na ticāya serū
dog-DEF.SG.NOM like.AOR-3S=SUB cat-DEF.SG-ACC smell.AOR-3S
The dog likes that it smells the cat

If you're one of those weird westerners you could use an infinitive phrase for the second one:

Ticāya sūvūya qrūlit ukū
cat-DEF.SG.ACC smell-INFIN-ACC dog-DEF.SG.NOM like.AOR-3S
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by eldin raigmore »

Chagen wrote:Pazmat has non-finite forms, but much prefers subordinated clauses with finite forms.
In some natlangs some subordinate clauses have non-finite verbforms for their nucleus.

In fact I'm not certain that isn't a consequence of the definition of "subordinate clause".

A clause SC is subordinate to a clause MC if it is both dependent on and embedded in MC.

SC is "embedded in MC" if SC is used in MC either:
"as if it were a noun-phrase argument of MC" (in which case it's called a "complement clause"); or
"as if it were an adjective-phrase modifying an argument of MC" (in which case it's called a "relative clause"); or
"as if it were an adverb-phrase modifying MC or the verb-phrase of MC or some adjective-phrase in MC" (in which case it's called an "adjunct clause").

SC is "dependent on MC" if the exact meaning of SC depends on understanding the meaning of [MC.
For instance, the tense of the verb in SC may be relative to the tense of the verb in MC.
Or, the aspect or modality/mode/mood of the verb in SC may be relative that of the verb in MC.
Or, the polarity or voice of the verb in SC may be relative that of the verb in MC.
Or the semantics of some other accident* of the verb in SC may depend on some verbal accident of the verb of MC.
*(e.g. agreement, evidentiality, mirativity, pluractionality, validationality, etc.)

Now I am pretty sure (I could be wrong) it's possible that the meaning of SC depends on the meaning of MC in some way that doesn't require the meaning of the verb of SC to depend on the verb of MC. For instance, the SC may be marked to show that one or more of its participants is related in one of a few ways to one or more of the particpants of the MC, and which, and how. ("Switch-reference marking", sometimes aka "same-or-different-subject marking".)

But I'm also pretty sure that the meaning of the nuclear verb of a subordinate clause almost always depends in part on the meaning of the verb in the main clause.
If these parts of the meanings of the verbs are shown by inflections in the language in question, at least in the verbs of main clauses, then the verbs in subordinate clauses can't be finite in that language.
(Because the definition of "finite verb" is "a verbform inflected in all the ways the verb of a main clause is usually inflected".)

(Of course if even the verbs of main clauses are rarely inflected for anything at all, then the verbs of subordinate clauses can easily be finite.)

It's natural IMO to have verbal nouns, such as infinitives and gerunds and masdars, as nuclei of complement clauses;
and IMO it's natural to have verbal adjectives, such as participles and gerundives, as nuclei of relative clauses;
and IMO it's natural to have verbal adverbs, such as supines, as nuclei of adjunct clauses.

(Not sure who or how many agree with me.)

Have you already thought of all this?
Are you sure that most Pazmat subordinate clauses have finite verbs?
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by loglorn »

:con: Proto-Gigxkpoyan
K'tuẕ xp'ót ṣqq'nulṯ’ lö q'nuj
like-GNO cat REL-sleep ACC sleep-INF

ṣq- introduces relative clauses. When used with single verbs it is pretty much like a participle. lö is the normal accusative marker but it can also introduce complement clauses.

K'tuẕ womğ lö q'uj xp'ót
like-GNO dog ACC smell-INF cat

Subordinate clauses are SVO as opposed to the normal VSO. The construction is somewhat akin to "The dog likes that it smells the cat" but there's pro-dropping going on.
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by Luan »

:con: Derrovian (IPA for High Derrovian)

Delcâna turmarta bandot turmisa. Nethimta bandot le rustisa delcâna ie.
delcâna turma-rta bando-t turm-is-a(-q). nethimata bando-t le rust-is-a delcâna(-q) ie(-q)
/dɛlˈkʲaːna tʊɾˈmaɾta ˈbandɔt tʊɾˈmɪsa(ʔ) ‖ nɛˈθɪmta ˈbandɔt lɛ‿ɾʊsˈtɪsa‿dɛlˈkʲaːna(ʔ)‿jɛ(ʔ)/
cat sleep-PRES.PART.FEM like-3SG sleep.GERUND-ACC . dog like-3SG ( smell.GERUND cat-ACC )-ACC
The sleeping cat likes to sleep. The dog likes to smell the cat.

I think the most strange feature of Derrovian is the method of how to group words together.
You use the circumposition(?) le ... ie surrounding the words you want grouped. This technique can be used to form subordinative clauses, relative clauses or just descriptions for things which would be rather complex in English.
Furthermore the accusative (which appears as ACC) in the glosses is not a mandatory distinction to make. It once was written as a -q [-ʔ] suffix which has nowadays completely disappeared from normal orthography (unless, for poetry or old texts where one has to indicate the direct object) and mostly from pronunciation. Many Derrovians don't even know the rules of why a -q is or was there. Therefore many of them, when they want to make texts look ancient (compare "ye olde"), just add -q after every second word.
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by k1234567890y »

:con: Lonmai Luna

In Lonmai Luna, the finite form and the Non-finite form of a verb do not look differ, when two verbs appearing together in a sentence, the second verb becomes something like non-finite verbs in English:

Romanization: manuk on mal carat dalta carat, yonklas on dalta huyosi manuk on
pronunciation: /manúk ón mal ʃarát daltá ʃarát jonklás ón daltá hujoʃí manúk ón/
Interlinear: flightless.bird the REL be.asleep like be.asleep reptile the like smell flightless.bird the
English: The sleeping flightless bird likes to be asleep. The reptile likes to smell the flightless bird.

:con: Urban Basanawa

Being a west germanic language, Urban Basanawa uses a strategy that is very similar to that of English:

text: だ 寝ぱんど 猫欲ん゚とと寝ぷ、だ犬欲ん゚とと嗅いいくだ猫
text(spaced): だ 寝ぱんど 猫 欲ん゚と と 寝ぷ、 だ 犬 欲ん゚と と 嗅いいく だ 猫
pronunciation: /də 'sla:pən(t) 'neko fər'laŋt tə sla:p də 'hunt fər'laŋt tə 'ri:k də 'neko/
romanization: de slaap-end neko ferlang-t to slaap, de hund ferlang-t to reek de neko
interlinear: the sleep-PRESENT.PARTICLE cat desire-3.SG.PRES to sleep the dog desire-3.SG.PRES to smell the cat
English: the sleeping cat desires to sleep, the dog desires to smell the cat
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by Imralu »

Thakowsaizmu wrote: 25 Nov 2014 10:25 :tan:
Paka alalaye anapenda alale
/'pɑ.kɑ ɑ.lɑ.'lɑ.jɛ ɑ.nɑ.pɛ.'ⁿdɑ.nɑ ɑ.'lɑ.lɛ/
paka a-lala-ye a-na-penda a-lal-e
cat 3ps-sleep-REL 3ps-PRES-like 3ps-sleep-SUBJ
The sleeping cat likes to sleep.


Mbwa anapenda anuse paka
/'m̩.bʷɑ ɑ.nɑ.'pɛ.ⁿdɑ ɑ.'nu.sɛ 'pɑ.kɑ/
mbwa a-na-penda a-nus-e paka
dog 3ps-PRES-like 3ps-smell-SUBJ cat
The dog likes to smell the cat.
I've never seen the subjunctive used after kupenda like that, and also the tenseless suffixed relative is pretty rare. Although I find that quite elegant, I think it's much more natural to say:

Paka anayelala anapenda kulala.
paka a-na-ye-lal(a) a-na-pend(a) ku-lal(a)
cat(CL9) CL1-PRES-CL1.REL-sleep CL1-PRES-like/love GER(CL15)-sleep
The sleeping cat likes to sleep.

Mbwa anapenda kumnusa paka.
mbwa a-na-pend(a) ku-m-nus(a) paka
dog(CL9) CL1-PRES-like/love GER(CL15)-CL1.OBJ-smell/sniff cat(CL9)
The dog likes to smell the cat.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by kiwikami »

:con: Ngaliv Ëra

Do forgive the oncoming ramble.

Both "cat" and "dog" are loanwords, since the language's speakers wouldn't need to refer often to either.

Nmër kät ua hulo, ke nmër, a ko a.
[ŋ͡mer kʰæθ wɑ ʔɯlo kʰɜ ŋ͡mer ɑ kʰo ɑ]
nmër kät o a h-ulo ke nmër a ke o a
sleep cat arg2 IND IND-please c5 sleep IND c5 arg2 IND
The sleeping cat likes to sleep.

NPs have three "slots" between the noun and its article. The first of these is used for verbs modifying the noun in question; there are no specific non-finite verb forms, as these operate in the same way as any other verb except for their argument structure. Verbs themselves have three argument slots (very roughly corresponding to patient, instrument, and agent, in order); the noun goes in whichever is appropriate. Then comes the verb's modal particle, and then the noun's article (both dogs and cats are class 5). "Cat" in this case is the instigator of its own sleeping action, assuming this isn't a chloroformed cat we're discussing here; the o (arg2) particle is thus added so that "cat" can fill the third argument slot as well. Phrasal morphophonological rules cause o a > ua.

So "the sleeping cat" -> sleep cat arg2 IND c5 (nmër kät ua ke)

This contrasts with "the cat is sleeping" in the direction of looming (the interweaving of constituents, and the reason Ngaliv Ëra syntax is a hot mess); in regular verbs, the first argument looms left if present, but if that verb is modifying a noun, it must always loom right. Phrasal rules cause ke o > ko. "The cat is sleeping" would be "cat sleep c5 arg2 IND" (kät nmër ko a).

The entire "the sleeping cat" NP is now the first argument of the verb ulo (Z/Y pleases X; X likes Y/Z), so it goes in slot one and the whole thing gets loomed leftwards as normal, with everything except the article moving in front of the verb (sleep cat arg2 IND IND-please c5 ... IND). "Please" gets an indicative prefix that "sleep" doesn't for phonological reasons.

The thing that pleases the cat is sleeping; again, there's no special non-finite verb form, just the verb "sleep" in the argument two position of ulo. The cat is the one whose sleeping is being liked, and it's already in the common ground, so its article is all that's needed in the first argument slot here, followed again by o so that it fills the third. The VP is thus nmër ke ua; now we loom right, since it's the last argument of the head VP. This splits it up, putting the head VP's indicative a immediately after the V of "sleep", giving us nmër a ko a.


Dok hulo, ke them a kät ko ka.
[tox ʔɯlo kʰɜ tˣɜm ɑ kʰæθ kʰo kʰɑ]
dok h-ulo ke them a kät ke o ke a.
dog IND-please c5 smell IND cat c5 arg2 c5 IND
The dog likes to smell the cat.

Here's "please" again, with the first argument being "the dog" (being the one pleased) loomed left (dog IND-please c5 ... IND -> dok hulo ke ... a).

"Smell" is the source of the dog's pleasure, so it's in argument two just as "sleep" was, and is loomed right just the same way; the IND after "smell" in the gloss belongs to the main VP "please". After that, we get the arguments of them, "smell". First is the smelled thing, the cat. You could loom this left - you'd get dok hulo, ke kät them a ko ka - but it's not mandatory when the "cat" NP is so short and the VP it's inside is already loomed, so best not to overcomplicate things. It may be slightly too late for that.

The arguments of "smell" don't quite fit the patient-instrument-agent mold; the third argument doesn't have to have volition, unlike in "sleep", while the second indicates the scent and the first as the thing emanating that scent. You could put "the cat" in both the first and second slots (dok hulo, ke them a kät ki ka), since the dog presumably likes cat-scent, not just the smelling action itself, but there's no real need. "Dog" needs to be the third argument, and it's in the common ground already, so all that's needed is a repeat of the article ke (showing up in the surface form only as k- because articles tend to merge with certain following particles). It shares a class with "cat", but that doesn't result in any "the cat smells itself" ambiguity because there's a separate reflexive construction (that would be them (a) kät kiö a).

...Viola?
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.

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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by Omzinesý »

A still unnamed Uralic a-posteriori lang

Two non-finite complements can be used: either Infinitive or an action nominal construction.

Mágiže kat tyckes mágiň / mági-da.
máge-že-Ø katt-Ø tycke-s mági-ň-Ø
sleep-PTCP.SIM-NOM cat-NOM like-SG3.PRS sleep-AN-ACC / sleep-INF
'The sleeping cat likes sleeping / to sleep.'
[mɒugɪ̈ʒɜ kat tykkɛs mɒugɪ̈dɜ / mɒugɪ̈̃ŋ ]


A nice! All the leximes in the sentence are Germanic loans.
Roots ending in a geminate usually have two alternative SG3 forms: vocalic and consontal ones. Tyckes, however, means 'likes' while tycks means 'tends to V' or 'usually Vs'.

Péni tyckes tvoksida katte / kattu tvoksiňh.
péni-Ø tycke-s tvoksi-da katt-e / katte-u tvoksi-ň-Ø
dog-NOM like-SG3 smell-INF cat-ACC / cat-INSTR smell-AN-ACC
'The dog likes to smell the cat / smelling of the cat.'
[peini tykkɛs tʋoksɪ̈dɜ kɑttɜ / kɑttu tʋoksɪ̈̃ŋ]
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marvelous
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Re: Non-finite verb forms

Post by marvelous »

:con: Setasutic

The bare stem is the infinitive, to which various affixes are attached to create the finite forms. To say "like" you use the verb yešila which means "to please."

The sleeping cat likes to sleep.
Uâdemi joo aj oo syešila.
/u.ɑˈde.mi ˈɖʐo.o aɖʐ ˈo.o sjeˈʂi.ɫa/
uâdem-i j-oo aj oo s-yešila
cat.like.creature-DAT PART.ACT-sleep DEF sleep 3SG.NPST-please
To sleep pleases the sleeping "cat."

The dog likes to smell the cat.
Mužâpi aj uâdemu aj tazüvya syešila.
/muˈʐɑ.pi ɑɖʐ u.ɑˈde.mu ɑɖʐ taˈzyv.ja sjeˈʂi.ɫa/
mužâp-i aj uâdem-u aj tazüvya s-yešila
dog.like.creature-DAT DEF cat.like.creature-ACC DEF smell 3SG.NPST-please
To smell the "cat" pleases the "dog."
:heb: I have gained self-respect and left. :yid:
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