Secondary predicates

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Xing
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Secondary predicates

Post by Xing »

How do your langs handle secondary predication? Do they distinguish between resultative and depictive secondary predication? Can secondary predicates modify any argument (subject, direct and indirect object), or only some (like the direct object)?

Resultative:

(1)They painted the house red.
(2) She hammered the metal flat.

Depictive

(3) She left him angry.
(4) He ate the meat raw.

:con: Wakeu

I'm not 100‰ sure how to handle these in Wakeu. Maybe I will use compound verbs for resultatives.

(1) Ko payanimeri ta maro a era.
PFV red.paint SG house ERG 3p
(2) Ko pakatipa ta ngole a ki.
PFV flat.hammer SG metal ERG 3s

Depictives may be handled through adpositional phrases:

(3) Ko ippi kia ki kameteki ki.
PFV leave 3s LOC loneliness 3s
(4) Ko matte a kia ta kauru ki tailu.
PFV eat ERG 3s SG meat LOC raw
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Re: Secondary predicates

Post by Micamo »

Two constructions I think worth examining here that xing missed, both depictives:

He ate the meat drunk.

Here, "drunk" modifies the agent, not the meat.

He ate the meat raw, drunk.

Though these uses of depictive secondary predicates in English are rare, they're perfectly acceptable so long as there's a prosodic break (here represented by the comma) between the two adjectives. Note the reverse ordering is impossible: The inner predicate must modify the patient, and the outer predicate must modify the agent. Note also that the need for the prosodic break disappears if you use a subordinator word to introduce the second predicate, as in "He ate the meat raw while drunk." or "He'll eat the meat raw if drunk." The version with the subordinator is much more common in actual spoken English than the version with the prosodic break.
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Re: Secondary predicates

Post by Khemehekis »

Kankonian:

(1)They painted the house red.
Mem retelen ad gudum shakti.
3pl paint-PST to red house

(2) She hammered the metal flat.
Wan helbakhatzen ad gedzur lataz.
2sg with-iammer-PST to flat metal

(3) She left him angry.
Mopiga smukhen shil tzareimin wiri.
woman leave-PST as angry man

(4) He ate the meat raw.
Wan abamen vithev shil ukhar.
3sg eat-PST meat as raw

(5) He ate the meat drunk.
Wan abamen vithev mos shalob.
3sg eat-PST meat while drunk

(6) He ate the meat raw, drunk.
Wan abamen vithev shil ukhar mos shalob.
3sg eat-PST meat as raw while drunk
-or-
Wan abamen mos shalob vithev shil ukhar.
3sg eat-PST while drunk meat as raw
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Re: Secondary predicates

Post by bororo »

I can't think of any example of "resultative" constructions in French, we use prepositions instead :
:fra:
(1) Ils ont peint la maison en rouge
(2) Elle a aplati le métal avec un marteau (literally, "she flattened the metal with a hammer")

The descriptive ones work as in English, though for Micamo's example I would change the word order a little :
(6) Ivre, il a mangé la viande crue (Drunk, he ate the meat raw - this one can be ambiguous with "he ate the raw meat", but intonation would be different)

:con:
In Jrawelian I could handle these constructions with predicates added to the main clause :

(1) They painted the house red
Pyan tôkengol dyöl he vökan
3P give_paint.VOL.PST to_house DEF give_red.NVOL

(4) He ate the meat raw
Ta kusúngol zöy he fásen
3S take_food.VOL.PST from_meat DEF take_blood.NVOL
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Re: Secondary predicates

Post by Lao Kou »

Image Géarthnuns

Géarthnuns resultatives get the "as" treatment of Kankonian depictives, though adjectives can't just float in space and need to be substantivized to take "as":

(1) Rheth lé chö béöbsöt sö zíauríbsöb sfen fsurol.
[Xɛθ 'le tʃø be'øbsøt sø zjɔ'ɾibsøb sfɛn fsu'ɾol]
3PL-NOM AUX.PAST DEF house-ACC INDEF red.one-POST as paint
They painted the house red.

(2) San lé chö pebsöt sö dnoubsöb sfen dvétekh.
[san 'le tʃø 'pɛbsøt sø 'dnaʊbsøb sfɛn 'dvetɛx]
3SG-NOM AUX.PAST DEF metal-ACC INDEF flat.one-POST as pound
She pounded the metal flat.

Though if French offers:
bororo wrote: :fra: (2) Elle a aplati le métal avec un marteau (literally, "she flattened the metal with a hammer")
then by rights, one ought to be able to say:

(2) San lén chö pebsöt sö dhobsön höi dnoub nöi.
[san 'len tʃø 'pɛbsøt sø 'ðobsøn høj 'dnaʊb 'nøj]
3SG-NOM AUX.PAST.CAUS DEF metal-ACC INDEF hammer-INSTR PTCL flat-NOM be
She made the metal flat with a hammer. (= she flattened the metal with a hammer)

and by extension:

(1) Rheth lén chö béöbsöt sí dvelsín höi zíauríb nöi.
[Xɛθ 'len tʃø be'øbsøt si 'dvɛlsin høj zjɔ'ɾib 'nøj]
3PL-NOM AUX.PAST.CAUS DEF house-ACC INDEF paint-INSTR PTCL red-NOM be
They made the house red with paint. (= they reddened the house with paint)

Not unreasonable, since that's the same sentence structure in Géarthnuns for, say, "Balloons make me happy." But we're kind of on "He ran across the street." vs. "Il a traversé la rue en courant." turf. Are one or both grammatically and/or pragmatically viable in Géarthnuns? It's hard to say. Set I (1) and (2) are fine; I don't know about Set II (2) and (1).

(3) San lé söböt (höi) shtegölalöböt panten.
[san 'le 'søbøt (høj) ʃtɛgøla'løbøt 'pantɛn]
3SG-NOM AUX.PAST 3SG-ACC (PTCL) angry-ACC leave
She left him angry.

(4) Söb lé cha altensat (höi) jonat glozh.
[søb 'le tʃa al'tɛ̃sat (høj) 'dʒonat 'gloʒ]
3SG-NOM AUX.PAST DEF meat--ACC (PTCL) raw-ACC eat
He ate the meat raw.
:fra: il a mangé la viande crue (this one can be ambiguous with "he ate the raw meat", but intonation would be different)
And so the Géarthnuns "höi" is optional for absolute clarity, though it's hard to imagine the Géarthçins really caring here.

(5) Söb poposönab lé cha altensat glozh.
[søb popo'sønab 'le tʃa al'tɛ̃sat 'gloʒ]
3SG-NOM drunk-NOM AUX.PAST DEF meat-ACC eat
He ate the meat drunk.
or
(5) Söb lé cha altensat poposöna'u glozh.
[søb 'le tʃa al'tɛ̃sat poposø'na.u 'gloʒ]
3SG-NOM AUX.PAST DEF meat-ACC drunk-ADV eat
He ate the meat drunk.

(6) Söb poposönab lé cha altensat (höi) jonat glozh.
[søb popo'sønab 'le tʃa al'tɛ̃sat (høj) 'dʒonat 'gloʒ]
3SG-NOM drunk-NOM AUX.PAST DEF meat-ACC (PTCL) raw-ACC eat
He ate the meat raw, drunk.
I would change the word order a little :
:fra: (6) Ivre, il a mangé la viande crue
Sure, why not:

(6) Poposönab, söb lé cha altensat (höi) jonat glozh.
[popo'sønab, søb 'le tʃa al'tɛ̃sat (høj) 'dʒonat 'gloʒ]
drunk-NOM,3SG-NOM AUX.PAST DEF meat-ACC (PTCL) raw-ACC eat
He ate the meat raw, drunk.
or
(6) Söb lé cha altensat (höi) jonat poposöna'u glozh.
[søb 'le tʃa al'tɛ̃sat (høj) 'dʒonat poposø'na.u 'gloʒ]
3SG-NOM AUX.PAST DEF meat-ACC (PTCL) raw-ACC drunk-ADV eat
He ate the meat raw, drunk.
Last edited by Lao Kou on 22 Mar 2016 08:33, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Secondary predicates

Post by MrKrov »

:con: Pakbum:

(1) ʔi laŋ sklim ŋom ʔi wip tro OR ʔi laŋ s-tro ʔi wip (le ŋom)
DEF person CAUS-stick.to paint DEF house be.red OR DEF person CAUS-be.red DEF house (use paint)
They painted the house red.

(2) ʔi ljak ta ʔi jal pʰiʔ le m̥ap OR ʔi ljak (ta) s-piʔ ʔi jal le m̥ap
DEF woman pound DEF metal be.flat use hammer OR DEF woman (pound) CAUS-be.flat metal use hammer
She hammered the metal flat.

(3) ʔi ljak ŋ̊ew ʔi wus tam
DEF woman leave DEF man be.angry
She left him angry.

(4) ʔi wus gjap ʔi tek d͡zon
DEF man eat DEF meat be.raw
The man ate the meat raw.

I notice the resultative and depictive secondary predicates are identical and the depictive clauses are basically relative clauses on objects, so no depictive clauses modifying the subject floating elsewhere besides right after the subject.
I suppose the after-OR versions would be better in these particular instances but the before-OR would be more typical.
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Re: Secondary predicates

Post by zyx3166 »

Roguel:
1) Gotta zegeyka menucizkem.
house-ACC red-NMLZ-as paint-PAST-3SG
2) Kolomta sineyka apulnizkek.
metal-ACC flat-NMLZ-as hammer-PAST-3SG
3) Laneycar bikcatnitizkek.
angry-NMLZ-COM ABL-go-3SG.ACC-3SG
4) Asuteycar gitjentizkek.
raw-NMLZ-COM meat-eat-PAST-3SG
5) Hasnin gitjentizkek.
drunk-ADV meat-eat-PAST-3SG
6) Hasnin, asuteycar gitjentizkek.
drunk-ADV raw-NMLZ-COM meat-eat-PAST-3SG
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Re: Secondary predicates

Post by Imralu »

:tan: Swahili

(1)They painted the house red.

Walipaka rangi nyeupe kwenye kuta za nyumba.
wa-li-pak(a) rangi ny-eupe kw-enye kuta z-a nyumba
CL2-PST-smear paint(CL9) CL9-white CL17-ORN walls(CL10) CL10-GEN house(CL9)
They applied white paint to the walls of the house.

Walipaka rangi nyumba iwe nyeupe.
wa-li-pak(a) rangi nyumba i-w(a)-e ny-eupe
CL2-PST-smear paint(CL9) house(CL9) CL9-be-SBJV CL9-white
They painted the house that it be white.
They painted that the house be white.


(2) She hammered the metal flat.

Aligong'ota metali iwe bapa.
a-li-gong'ot(a) metali i-w(a)-e bapa
CL1-PST-beat/hammer metal(CL9) CL9-be-SBJV flat
She hammers the metal that it be flat.
She hammers that the metal is flat.


(3) She left him angry.

Aliondoka kwake akiwa amekasirika.
a-li-ondok(a) kw-ake a-ki-w(a) a-me-kasirik(a)
CL1-PST-leave CL17-GEN.3S CL1-SITU-be CL1-PRF-become.angry
She left his location, having become angry.

(4) He ate the meat raw.

Alikula nyama ikiwa mbichi.
a-li-ku-l(a) nyama i-ki-w(a) m-bichi
CL1-PST-EXT-eat meat(CL9) CL9-SITU-be CL9-raw
He ate the meat, it being raw.

(5) He ate the meat drunk.

Alikula nyama akiwa amelewa.
a-li-ku-l(a) nyama a-ki-w(a) a-me-lew(a)
CL1-PST-EXT-eat meat(CL9) CL1-SITU-be CL1-PRF-become.drunk
He ate the meat, him having become drunk.

(6) He ate the meat raw, drunk.

Alikula nyama ikiwa mbichi akiwa amelewa
a-li-ku-l(a) nyama i-ki-w(a) m-bichi a-ki-w(a) a-me-lew(a)
CL1-PST-EXT-eat meat(CL9) CL9-SITU-be CL9-raw CL1-SITU-be CL1-PRF-become.drunk
He ate the meat, it being raw, him having become drunk.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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