Two levels of genitive

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Squall
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Two levels of genitive

Post by Squall »

How does your language handle this case?
salt-GEN lake-GEN fish
Does 'salt' refer to lake or fish?

:eng: English
Salt-lake fish (The lake is salty and the fish is from this lake.)
Salt lake-fish (The fish is from a lake and this fish is salty.)
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
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Ahzoh
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Re: Two levels of genitive

Post by Ahzoh »

My conlanguage places the noun in construct state before the genitive noun.

So you could either say "salt-of lake-fish" or "fish-of salt-lake"
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k1234567890y
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Re: Two levels of genitive

Post by k1234567890y »

:con: Lonmai Luna/Liunan:

non-compound:
wail imai was imon eyes
fish of.ALIENABLE lake of.INALIENABLE salt
fish of salt-lake

was-wail imai eyes
lake-fish of.ALIENABLE salt
lake-fish of salt

wail imai eyes-was
fish of.ALIENABLE salt-lake
fish of salt-lake

compound:
eyeswaswail
eyes-was-wail
salt-lake-fish
fish of salt-lake(usual way to render, but this case is ambiguous)

waswailimeyes
was-wail-im-eyes
lake-fish-of-salt
lake-fish of salt

wailimeyeswas
wail-im-eyes-was
fish-of-salt-lake
fish of salt-lake("fish of salt-lake" is the usual way to render this compound word, but in this case the meaning can be ambiguous)

locative structure:

was-eyes mal dul e eyes
lake-fish REL be.at at salt
salt lake-fish

eyes mal dul e eyes-was
fish REL be.at at salt-lake
salt-lake fish

:con: Nevotak:

Nevotak doesn't seem to have strategy to distinguish them:

eun zuh ire
salt/salty lake fish
salt-lake fish
salt lake-fish

this can be rendered as (eun zuh) ire or eun (zuh ire), the difference of meanings can only be disambiguated by the context.

locative structure(Notice the place of "ri"("inside")):

eun zuh ri ire
salt/salty lake inside fish
salt-lake fish

eun ri zuh ire
salt inside lake fish
salt lake-fish
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Click
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Re: Two levels of genitive

Post by Click »

:con: Ardelian

As Ardelian doesn’t really have adjectives at all, ‘salty’ is expressed as a relative clause, literally ‘having salt’. The difference between the two phrases is simply in the positioning of the relative clause since it modifies a different noun, as evident below.
  • trešın vatónı ro
    trayə̆·Ø·šın‹Ø vatón·ı ro
    have·PRS·salt‹3SG lake·GEN fish
    salt-lake fish (the lake is salty and the fish is from this lake)
  • vatónı trešın ro
    vatón·ı trayə̆·Ø·šın‹Ø ro
    lake·GEN have·PRS·salt‹3SG fish
    salt lake-fish (the fish is from a lake and this fish is salty)
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Bagliun Edar
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Re: Two levels of genitive

Post by Bagliun Edar »

:con: Obulamga

viblumor matharibemorzalolāmāzu
[ˈviblumɔɾ ˈmaðaɾibɛmɔɾzalɔlaːˌmaːzu]
viblu-mor matharibe-mor-zalol-āmā-zu
fish-NEUT lake-NEUT-salty-PERM.UNIF.DESC-REL
fish of salty lake

viblumorzalolāmā matharibemorzu
[ˈviblumɔɾzalɔˌlaːmaː ˈmaðaɾibɛˌmɔɾzu]
viblu-mor-zalol-āmā matharibe-mor-zu
fish-NEUT-salty-PERM.UNIF.DESC lake-NEUT-REL
salty fish of lake
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Squall
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Re: Two levels of genitive

Post by Squall »

I have some solutions, but I have not included them in any conlang.

a. Salt-lake fish (The lake is salty and the fish is from this lake.)
b. Salt lake-fish (The fish is from a lake and this fish is salty.)

:con: 1
This language has two suffixes for genitive, the second suffix is used in the second level.

a. pishi lakal saltic
fish lake-GEN1 salt-GEN2

b. pishi lakal saltal
fish lake-GEN1 salt-GEN1

:con: 2
The second level of genitive requires two genitive suffixes.

a. pishi lakal saltalal
fish lake-GEN salt-GEN-GEN

b. pishi lakal saltal
fish lake-GEN salt-GEN

:con: 3
This language uses the word 'and' or commas to make adjectives refer to the same noun. Without 'and', they will refer to the the last word.

a. pishi lakal saltal
fish lake-GEN salt-GEN

b. pishi lakal ens saltal
fish lake-GEN and salt-GEN

More cases
a. Cold-lake fish (The lake is cold.)
b. Cold lake-fish (The fish is cold.)
c. Sea-blue fish (The color of the fish is blue like the sea.)
d. Sea blue-fish (The fish is blue and it is from the sea.)
e. Three-horned dragons (The dragons have three horns.)
f. Three horned-dragons (There are three dragons and each one has at least a horn.)

:con: 2
This is the second language again. It uses a suffix added to adjectives to tell that it refers to the nearest noun in the genitive instead of the main noun.

a. pishi lakal frigidika
fish lake-GEN1 cold-LY

b. pishi lakal frigidi
fish lake-GEN1 cold

c. pishi azuri maric
fish blue sea-GEN2

d. pishi azuri maral
fish blue sea-GEN1

e. drakos trisokornal
dragon-PL three-horn-GEN1

f. triso drako kornal
three dragon horn-GEN1
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
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sangi39
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Re: Two levels of genitive

Post by sangi39 »

Okay, in the first example we have "a fish of a lake of salt", so here "salt" relates to "lake". In the second example we have "a fish of salt of a lake" where "salt relates "fish". In Classical Kusan, then, we would have:

a)
gwindilma sulasman kahtu
gwindil-ma-0 sulas-ma-n kahtu-0
lake-GEN-NOM.SING salt-GEN-GEN fish-NOM.SING.
a fish of a salty lake

b)
gwindilma kahtu sulasma
gwindil-ma-0 kahtu-0 sulas-ma-0
lake-GEN-NOM.SING fish-NOM.SING salt-GEN-NOM.SING
a salty fish of a lake OR
a fish of a lake, in/on salt

Nouns in the genitive case, when being used to indicate possession, must appear before the noun they relate to, but after that noun in all other circumstances. However, nouns in the genitive must also agree in case and number with the noun they are related to.

Since "salt" in the 1st example relates to "lake", but doesn't own "lake", "salt" must appear after "lake". Since "lake" possesses "fish", "lake" must appear before "fish", placing "salt" in the middle, agreeing in case with "lake" and "lake" agreeing in case with "fish"

Since "salt" in the 2nd example relates to "fish", but doesn't own "fish", "salt" must appear after "fish". Since "lake" possesses "fish", "lake" must appear before "fish", placing "salt" at the end, agreeing in case with "fish" and "lake" agreeing in case with "fish".

Note that in the second example, the word order, thanks to locative nouns appearing after the nouns they relate to, is ambiguous in the nominative, since "salt-GEN" can also mean "in/on salt". The ambiguity, however, is cleared up in other cases, since, when used as a locative, "salt-GEN" wouldn't have to agree in case with "fish", e.g. gwindilmar kahtur sulasmar (a salty fish of a lake) vs. gwindilmar kahtur sulasma (a fish of a lake, in/or salt).

This relates further to the following:

a)
kahtu gwindilma sulasman
kahtu-0 gwindil-ma sulas-ma-n
fish NOM.SING. lake-GEN salt-GEN-GEN
a fish in a salty lake

b)
kahtu sulasma gwindilma
kahtu-0 sulas-ma-0 gwindil-ma
fish-NOM.SING salt-GEN-NOM.SING lake-GEN
a salty fish in a lake OR
a fish in salt in a lake

"lake" no longer has to agree in case with "fish" but "salt" still has to agree with either "fish" or "lake" but the new word order is ambiguous in the second example, with salt now either being a stand alone locative or a genitive-adjective. Again, this ambiguity is cleared up in, for example, the accusative:

kahtur sulasmar gwindilma (a salty fish in a lake) vs. kahtur sulasma gwindilma (a fish in salt in a lake).

Further ambiguity arises in the first examples, when "fish" appears in the genitive, but the ambiguity is just left alone [:P]
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Ossicone
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Re: Two levels of genitive

Post by Ossicone »

:con: Uskra:

Ami urukur aspra sku.
am-i uruk-ur aspra sku
fish-DEF salt.water-LOC salt with
"The fish in the salty saltwater."

Ami aspra sku riskiur.
am-i aspra sku riski-ur
fish-DEF salt with fresh.water-LOC
"The salty fish in the freshwater."

I’ve added the salty bit for the TC but Uskra uses different words for salt and fresh water. It just ends up being a simple difference of word order anyway.

I normally gloss them as ‘ocean’ uruk and ‘river’ riski because that is what they will typically refer to. However, a saltwater lake would be uruk and a freshwater lake would be riski.
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Re: Two levels of genitive

Post by Xing »

:con: Leopardish (Gaku)

Time o kannitana
time o kanni-tanna
fish GEN lake-salt
'The fish of the salt-lake'

Timetana o kanni
time-tana o kanni
fish-salt GEN lake
'The salty fish from the lake'

Or, alterntively:

Time tana o kanni
fish salt GEN lake
'The salty fish from the lake'
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Re: Two levels of genitive

Post by Bagliun Edar »

Bagliun Edar wrote: :con: Obulamga

viblumor matharibemorzalolāmāzu
[ˈviblumɔɾ ˈmaðaɾibɛmɔɾzalɔlaːˌmaːzu]
viblu-mor matharibe-mor-zalol-āmā-zu
fish-NEUT lake-NEUT-salty-PERM.UNIF.DESC-REL
fish of salty lake

viblumorzalolāmā matharibemorzu
[ˈviblumɔɾzalɔˌlaːmaː ˈmaðaɾibɛˌmɔɾzu]
viblu-mor-zalol-āmā matharibe-mor-zu
fish-NEUT-salty-PERM.UNIF.DESC lake-NEUT-REL
salty fish of lake
I cheated with these translations; the thread dealt with two levels of genitive and I translated it with adjectives. This would be the alternative:

viblumor matharibemorzu zalmorzu
[ˈviblumɔɾ ˈmaðaɾibɛˌmɔɾzu ˈzalmɔɾzu]
viblu-mor matharibe-mor-zu zal-mor-zu
fish-NEUT lake-NEUT-GEN salt-NEUT-GEN
fish of (lake of salt)

viblumor matharibemorzu zalmorge
[ˈviblumɔɾ ˈmaðaɾibɛˌmɔɾzu ˈzalmɔɾgɛ]
viblu-mor matharibe-mor-zu zal-mor-ge
fish-NEUT lake-NEUT-GEN1 salt-NEUT-GEN2
(fish of lake) of salt

-zu relates to the previous noun.
-ge relates to the previous of the previous.
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Re: Two levels of genitive

Post by Sḿtuval »

:con: Proto-Ydtobogȧntiaky

literal translation (ambiguous)

diklie mēe pymiȧk
salt-GEN.PL lake-GEN.SG fish-ERG.SG
fish of salt-lake

diklie mēe pymiȧk
salt-GEN.PL lake-GEN.SG fish-ERG.SG
lake-fish of salt

compound translation (best translation)

diklemēe pymiȧk
salt-lake-GEN.SG fish-ERG.SG
fish of salt-lake

diklie mēpymiȧk
salt-GEN.PL lake-fish-ERG.SG
lake-fish of salt

locative translation

pymiȧk diklie mēdȧ
fish-ERG.SG salt-GEN.PL lake-LOC.SG
fish at/in salt-lake

mēe pymiȧk diklde
lake-GEN.SG fish-ERG.SG salt-LOC.PL
lake-fish at/in salt

ablative translation

pymiȧk diklie mēar
fish-ERG.SG salt-GEN.PL lake-ABL.SG
fish out of salt-lake

mēe pymiȧk diklā
lake-GEN.SG fish-ERG.SG salt-ABL.PL
lake-fish out of salt

adjective translation

diklogȧu mēe pymiȧk
salt-ADJZ-N.GEN lake-GEN.SG fish-ERG.SG
fish of salty lake

diklie mēogȧu pymiȧk
salt-GEN.PL lake-ADJZ-F.GEN fish-ERG.SG
"lake-y" fish of salt
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Re: Two levels of genitive

Post by Mardigny »

:con: Missa

Dressaj girnúle śem
[ðɾɛs-saj ʝiɾ-nu=le s̠em]
salt-COM lake-ABL=REL fish
Fish from a salt lake

Dresle śem girnú
[ðrɛs=le s̠em ʝiɾ-nu]
salt-ADJ fish lake-ABL
Salty fish from a lake
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Re: Two levels of genitive

Post by Click »

:con: Azatri

Azatri forms genitive constructions by means of the postposed clitic ·́ llı/·állı which is placed after any modifiers the genitive may have, analogously to English ’s (unoriginal, I know). Thýro ‘salty’ is derived from thý ‘salt’ in a roundabout manner via thýr ‘be salty’, of which thýro is the present active participle.
  • sòla thýrollı voı
    sòla thýro=llı voı
    lake salty=GEN fish
    salt-lake fish (the lake is salty and the fish is from this lake)
  • solàllı voı thýro
    sòla=́ llı voı thýro
    lake=GEN fish salty
    salt lake-fish (the fish is from a lake and this fish is salty)
The accent doesn’t relocate to the clitic from thýro as it belongs to the static declension, while sòla is kinetic. Also, thý is an irregular noun with the prevocalic stem thív·, so its accusative is thíva.
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Re: Two levels of genitive

Post by All4Ɇn »

:con: Niijerj
L'eş de lak sal
[lɛʂ dɛ lak sal]
The fish of salty lake

Lu lak-eş sal
[ly lak ɛʂ sal]
The salty lake-fish
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Re: Two levels of genitive

Post by Khemehekis »

Kankonian:

tairak na holas na pak
fish of lake of salt
Salt-lake fish (The lake is salty and the fish is from this lake.)

tairak na pak na holas
fish of salt of lake
Salt lake-fish (The fish is from a lake and this fish is salty.)
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Re: Two levels of genitive

Post by Imralu »

:tan: Swahili

samaki wa ziwa la chumvi
samaki w-a ziwa l-a chumvi
fish(CL9) CL1-GEN lake(CL5) CL5-GEN salt(CL9/10)

The class 5 genitive indicates that the salt refers to the lake.

samaki wa ziwa wa chumvi
samaki w-a ziwa w-a chumvi
fish(CL9) CL1-GEN lake(CL5) CL1-GEN salt(CL9/10)

The class 1 genitive indicates that the salt refers to the fish, which even though it is class 9, is animate (even if dead) and takes class 1 agreements.
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