Guess the Word in Romlangs

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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by Clio »

Is /z/ from a Latin consonant that was palatalized by a following front vowel?

EDIT: Our word is chäzillu /ʃɛzɨʎʌ/.
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by spanick »

Clio wrote: 08 Jul 2018 00:59 Is /z/ from a Latin consonant that was palatalized by a following front vowel?
Yes.
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by Ælfwine »

Was is the /ɛ/ fronted from Vulgar Latin /a/ in a stressed position?
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by spanick »

Ælfwine wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:29 Was is the /ɛ/ fronted from Vulgar Latin /a/ in a stressed position?
Yes
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by Ælfwine »

spanick wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:44
Ælfwine wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:29 Was is the /ɛ/ fronted from Vulgar Latin /a/ in a stressed position?
Yes
Ok

Was /k/ palatalized before historic /a/, like in French and Rhetoromance?
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by spanick »

Ælfwine wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:47
spanick wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:44
Ælfwine wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:29 Was is the /ɛ/ fronted from Vulgar Latin /a/ in a stressed position?
Yes
Ok

Was /k/ palatalized before historic /a/, like in French and Rhetoromance?
Yes
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by Ælfwine »

spanick wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:54
Ælfwine wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:47
spanick wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:44
Ælfwine wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:29 Was is the /ɛ/ fronted from Vulgar Latin /a/ in a stressed position?
Yes
Ok

Was /k/ palatalized before historic /a/, like in French and Rhetoromance?
Yes
Did this word then derive from *castellum?
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by spanick »

Ælfwine wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:59 Did this word then derive from *castellum?
I'm afraid not.

--------

Upon closer inspection, I transcribed the word incorrectly. It doesn't affect any of the previous guesses or answers but it could potentially be a clue

chäzíllu
/ʃɛziʎʌ/
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by Clio »

spanick wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:44
Ælfwine wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:29 Was is the /ɛ/ fronted from Vulgar Latin /a/ in a stressed position?
Yes
I don't see how the Latin /a/ in the first syllable could have been stressed; if /ʎ/ descends from Latin /ll/, the penult would have been heavy and stressed. Or did the word-level stress move from the Latin?
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by spanick »

Clio wrote: 08 Jul 2018 03:08
spanick wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:44
Ælfwine wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:29 Was is the /ɛ/ fronted from Vulgar Latin /a/ in a stressed position?
Yes
I don't see how the Latin /a/ in the first syllable could have been stressed; if /ʎ/ descends from Latin /ll/, the penult would have been heavy and stressed. Or did the word-level stress move from the Latin?
It did indeed. Túrnnu experienced a shift of stress to the first syllable early on. You're correct that in Latin it was the penult that carried the stress.
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by Ælfwine »

spanick wrote: 08 Jul 2018 03:05
Ælfwine wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:59 Did this word then derive from *castellum?
I'm afraid not.
Damn, thought i had it for a second.
spanick wrote: 08 Jul 2018 03:13
Clio wrote: 08 Jul 2018 03:08
spanick wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:44
Ælfwine wrote: 08 Jul 2018 02:29 Was is the /ɛ/ fronted from Vulgar Latin /a/ in a stressed position?
Yes
I don't see how the Latin /a/ in the first syllable could have been stressed; if /ʎ/ descends from Latin /ll/, the penult would have been heavy and stressed. Or did the word-level stress move from the Latin?
It did indeed. Túrnnu experienced a shift of stress to the first syllable early on. You're correct that in Latin it was the penult that carried the stress.
Likewise I've thought about shifting the stress to the front as well, but as a result of sound change by syncoping the pretonic vowel. Still an interesting idea.
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by Clio »

Very interesting.

Was the consonant from which /z/ derives already voiced in Latin?
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by spanick »

Ælfwine wrote: 08 Jul 2018 03:21 Likewise I've thought about shifting the stress to the front as well, but as a result of sound change by syncoping the pretonic vowel. Still an interesting idea.
My reasoning is that the Germanic speaking people who took up Latin had trouble with the stress and would pronounce words with the stress pattern of their Germanic language. It's a flimsy reason, I admit.
Clio wrote: 08 Jul 2018 03:23 Was the consonant from which /z/ derives already voiced in Latin?
No
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by spanick »

Ælfwine wrote: 08 Jul 2018 03:21 Likewise I've thought about shifting the stress to the front as well, but as a result of sound change by syncoping the pretonic vowel. Still an interesting idea.
My reasoning is that the Germanic speaking people who took up Latin had trouble with the stress and would pronounce words with the stress pattern of their Germanic language. It's a flimsy reason, I admit.
Clio wrote: 08 Jul 2018 03:23 Was the consonant from which /z/ derives already voiced in Latin?
No
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by Clio »

Oh, I'm sure you don't need much reason to have the stress shift. It happened possibly twice in the history of Latin, and in Germanic.

Is the word from Latin catillus?
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by shimobaatar »

spanick wrote: 08 Jul 2018 03:43
Clio wrote: 08 Jul 2018 03:23 Was the consonant from which /z/ derives already voiced in Latin?
No
Was it t?
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by spanick »

Clio wrote: 08 Jul 2018 03:47 Is the word from Latin catillus?
Yes!
shimobaatar wrote: 08 Jul 2018 03:48 Was it t?
Yes, as above.
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by GrandPiano »

Clio wrote: 08 Jul 2018 03:47 Oh, I'm sure you don't need much reason to have the stress shift. It happened possibly twice in the history of Latin, and in Germanic.
Twice? I know there was a shift from initial stress to the classical stress pattern, but what was the other shift?
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by Clio »

Does it mean 'kettle'?
GrandPiano wrote: 08 Jul 2018 16:39
Clio wrote: 08 Jul 2018 03:47 Oh, I'm sure you don't need much reason to have the stress shift. It happened possibly twice in the history of Latin, and in Germanic.
Twice? I know there was a shift from initial stress to the classical stress pattern, but what was the other shift?
The first shift was the shift to initial stress from the Indo-European accent.
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Re: Guess the Word in Romlangs

Post by spanick »

Clio wrote: 08 Jul 2018 19:41 Does it mean 'kettle'?
Not quite, but that's in the ballpark.
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