Hosea 13:16

[Imralu]

New International Version:

The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.”

King James Version:

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.


Swahili - Biblia Takatifu:

Samaria atachukua hatia yake; kwa maana amemwasi Mungu wake; wataanguka kwa upanga; watoto wao wachanga watavunjwa vipande vipande, na wanawake wao wenye mimba watatambuliwa.

Code: Select all

Samaria  a-ta-chuku-a        hatia       y-ake
Samaria  3s.ANIM-FUT-take-Ö  guilt(CL9)  CL9-GEN.3s

kwa   maana    amemwasi                     Mungu         w-ake
INST  meaning  3s.ANIM-PRF-3s.ANIM-disobey  God(CL3ANIM)  CL1-GEN.3s

wa-ta-anguk-a       kwa   upanga
3p.ANIM-FUT-fall-Ö  INST  sword(CL11)

watoto         w-ao        wa-changa  wa-ta-vunj-w-a              vipande      vipande
children(CL2)  CL2-GEN.3s  CL2-young  3p.ANIM-FUT-destroy-PASS-Ö  pieces(CL8)  pieces(CL8)

na   wanawake    w-ao        w-enye      mimba                  wa-ta-tambu-liw-a
COM  women(CL2)  CL2-GEN.3p  CL2-having  pregnancy/embryo(CL9)  3p.ANIM-FUT-identify-PASS-Ö

The part about the pregnant women being torn up seems to just say that pregnant women will be identified/recognised ... but not what will actually be done to them, which seems like sloppy translating to me.

[qwed117]

The part about the pregnant women being torn up seems to just say that pregnant women will be identified/recognised ... but not what will actually be done to them, which seems like sloppy translating to me.

I'm not a religious fellow, nor one particularly versed in the Bible, but to me it seems to suggest, they'd tear open the wombs just to dash the head of the baby.

[Imralu]

Hmm, yeah, possibly ... but identifying/recognising/selecting the pregnant women still doesn't say as much as what is said in English. I expected watapasuliwa "they will be torn/operated on"... I've found a few bits in this Swahili bible where parts of sentences are just left out.

[Iyionaku]

Mandarin (Contemporary)

撒玛利亚人背叛了他们的上帝，
要担当自己的罪过。
他们将丧身刀下，
他们的孩子要被摔死，
孕妇要被剖腹。

Spoiler:

撒玛利亚人背叛了他们的上帝，要担当自己的罪过。
Sāmǎlìyǎ rén bèipànle tāmen de shàngdì, yào dāndāng zìjǐ de zuìguo.
Samarian people betray 3PL GEN god, must??? take_on REFL GEN sin
The Samaritans betray their god and must take on their sins.

I don't really understand why there is 要 in this sentence.
EDIT: Wait, I do. I didn't read the original statement properly. It's certainly "must" here.

他们将丧身刀下，他们的孩子要被摔死，孕妇要被剖腹。
Tāmen jiāng sàngshēn dāo xià, tāmen de háizi yào bèi shuāisǐ, yùnfù yào bèi pōufù.
3PL FUT die knife down, 3PL GEN baby FUT PAS fall_for_death, pregnant_woman FUT PAS disembowel
They will die under the knife, their children will be killed, pregnant women will be disemboweled.

[Iyionaku]

French (Louis II Bible)

Samarie sera punie, parce qu'elle s'est révoltée contre son Dieu. Ils tomberont par l'épée; Leurs petits enfants seront écrasés, Et l'on fendra le ventre de leurs femmes enceintes.
[samaˈʁiː səˈʁa puˈniː, paʁs‿kɛl‿se ʁevɔlˈteː kɔ̃ˈtʁ̩ sɔ̃ di̯ø. ɪl tɔ̃bəˈʁɔ̃ paʁ leˈpeː ; lœʁ pəˈtiːt‿ɛ̃fɑ̃ səˈʁɔ̃t‿eːkraˈseː, e lɔ̃ fɛ̃ˈdʁaː lə vɛ̃ˈtʁ̩ də lœʁ famz‿ɑ̃ˈsɛ̃t]
Samarian COP.FUT.3SG punish.PP.FEM, because of=3SG.FEM REFL=COP.3SG rebel.PP.FEM against 3SG.MASC.POSS god. 3PL.MASC fall.FUT.3PL to DEF=sword; 3PL.POSS.PL small.MASC.PL child.PL COP.FUT.3PL shatter.PP.MASC.PL, and 3SG.OBL=3SG.INDEF tear.FUT.3SG DEF.MASC belly GEN 3PL.POSS.PL woman.PL pregnant.FEM.PL

[Salmoneus]

We get it, you don't like Christianity. But if you make the Translations forum a "dodgy bible quotation of the day" forum then there won't be room for anything else. If you really want that sort of a "laugh at christians" crusade, maybe have a consolidated thread for it? Though frankly it's always nice to have a space that isn't political trolling, I think.

[Imralu]

So no Bible unless it's the nice bits then? Got it.

[Salmoneus]

So no Bible unless it's the nice bits then? Got it.

Well, the John quote and the Psalms quote were posted six years apart, and the latter was only after you made this thread, so they weren't exactly a flood. But yes, if someone were posting "nice bits" of the Bible every day, that'd worry me too. Why do we need to politicise the translations forum in either direction? I'd rather the forum weren't just Bible quotations of any kind, which is why I suggested a consolidated thread. Or if necessary two consolidated threads ("yay, the bible!" and "boo, the bible!", say). And of course four is a survivable number, it's only 1/6th of the front page so far (not counting guessing games); it's the trend I'm worried about. At this rate, with duelling pro-contra quotations, it'll be 1/3rd of the page in two days, and half the page in four, so maybe we could do something preemptively, like consolidated threads, before we get to that stage. [because once people get into religious arguments they don't tend to cool off quickly of their own accord; the more you try to traduce their holy text, the more they'll retaliate, which provokes more to take up arms on your side, and so on]

But I've not authority around here, and if other people want to make this into the warring Bible studies subforum that's up to them; I shan't comment further.

[To clarify, though, I've no problem with the particular quotes, which are amusing and linguistically interesting. It's just... do we have to go there? Can we pull back at the brink, maybe? Nothing personal, it's just that there is so much of this around everywhere it's just nice to have any bit of peace and quiet that isn't politicised]

Sorry, I don't think I've explained my concern adequately. Ignore me.

[Iyionaku]

Bible quote have an undeniable advantage: They exist in plenty of natlangs and hence can be compared easily.

[Imralu]

I think if there's a "yay, the bible" thread and a "boo, the bible" thread, there should also be a "the bible: what?" thread for the fun, quirky things (which is what I regard the Ezekiel one I started as).

And yeah, in doing the John 3:16 one, I looked for and found a Swahili Bible online and it's good practice for me to copy and paste and then go through it and gloss, so I'm happy to do more (pleasant or horrid), but also happy for it to be limited to one or two threads so it doesn't take over the forum. If this is decided, I'd say that biblical passages that are especially syntactically (or otherwise linguistically) interesting should still be allowed to have their own threads, but maybe making it clear in the subject that it's about the relative clauses in that passage or whatever - rather than simply a verse reference.

[Lambuzhao]

The part about the pregnant women being torn up seems to just say that pregnant women will be identified/recognised ... but not what will actually be done to them, which seems like sloppy translating to me.

I'm not a religious fellow, nor one particularly versed in the Bible, but to me it seems to suggest, they'd tear open the wombs just to dash the head of the baby.

Well, the Septuagint and the Vulgate are pretty clear.
The littl'uns being dashed and the women being ripped open, well... let's take a look:

Nova Vulgata
Poenas solvet Samaria, quoniam rebellavit contra Deum suum: in gladio peribunt, parvuli eorum elidentur, et praegnantes discindentur.

LXX
ἀφανισθήσεται σαμάρεια ὅτι ἀντέστη πρὸς τὸν θεὸν αὐτῆς ἐν ῥομφαίᾳ πεσοῦνται αὐτοί καὶ τὰ ὑποτίτθια αὐτῶν ἐδαφισθήσονται καὶ αἱ ἐν γαστρὶ ἔχουσαι αὐτῶν διαρραγήσονται

In the the two bolded verbs are in the FUT.PASS.INDIC.3PL coordinated with a simple "and",
In the the two bolded verbs are also in the FUT.PASS.INDIC.3PL coordinated with a simple "and".
Unless it's a rhetorical device in the Hebrew, the texts both show that the children (presumably aldready born) will be dashed to the ground, and then the pregnant mothers will be torn open, presumably to expose and kill the fetuses/embrya within, as well as their mothers.

I mean, we could chicken'n'egg this to death, but the fact remains, all of the Samarian eggs and hens get fried.

Makes me think of Alien v Predator: Requiem. Y'know, the scene in the maternity ward.

[Lambuzhao]

To clarify, though, I've no problem with the particular quotes, which are amusing and linguistically interesting. It's just... do we have to go there? Can we pull back at the brink, maybe? Nothing personal, it's just that there is so much of this around everywhere it's just nice to have any bit of peace and quiet that isn't politicised

I kind of don't mind looking at contemporary translations from one lang to another. But wondering what could've been the source of a 4th or 5th generation translation, when we have their source material, and it's been expounded upon to the nth degree; I kind of don't get the point of this...

...unless also let's find some of the shockingest naughty bits of the Bible to show how gruesome the Bible can be (?)


Still, I get to flex some and muscles - Yay, classical langs!

And we may see some interesting bits quoted from Armenian, Gothic, Aramaic, OCS versions ???

And who knows, someone may educate me on what the Bible actually said... in :heb: (!)

But we could prolly also google this as well an find one of a myriad websites that have already done this.

[Iyionaku]

Yélian

A'Samárian ianpesavar cenim tinek,
viydre yicradeʻi evan cenim gòt.
Rodenvi liyd sanyi,
cenim îyin rograzoʻi pun pastor,
cenim áiavigrisan ropasoʻi pun diges.

[ɐsɐˈmaːɾɪ̯ɐn ɪ̯ɐɱˈpesɐʋɐd̟ ˈkeːnɨm ˈtiːnək, ˈva̯iːdɾə ɕɨkɾɐˈdeːʔi ˈeʋɐn ˈkeːnɨm gɔt. ɾɔˈdenvi ˈla̯iːd ˈsanɕi, ˈkenɨm ˈiɕɨn ɾɔˈgɾaɟɔʔi pʉn ˈpastɔd̟, ˈkeːnɨm ˈaɪ̯ɐˌʋiːgɾɨsɐn ɾɔˈpasɔʔi pʉn ˈdixəʃ]

DEF.ANIM=Samarian NEC-take-JUS.3PL 3PL.POSS guilt, thats_because PST-rebel-3PL against 3PL.POSS god | FUT-fall-3PL due_to sword, 3PL.POSS child-PL FUT-crash-INV.3PL in ground, 3PL.POSS woman-pregnant-PL FUT-cut-INV.3PL in belly