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 Post subject: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 12:06 
MVP
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:eng: The man saw the woman and died. (=the man died)

The man saw the woman, and she died (=the woman died)


:con: Wa‘tē

Ko kipe ā ‘taka ta xega, poe ūku ʻtaka.
[ko̞ ˈkipe̞ aː ˈt̪ːaka t̪a ʔe̞ŋa po̞e̞ ɯːk ˈt̪ːaka]
PRFT see ERG DEF.man DED woman CONJ die DEF.man

Ko kipe ā ‘taka ta xega, poe ūke.
[ko̞ ˈkipe̞ aː ˈt̪ːaka t̪a ʔe̞ŋa po̞e̞ ɯːk]
PRFT see ERG DEF.man DEF woman CONJ die

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Last edited by Xing on Sun 11 Dec 2011, 21:45, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 17:06 
ice
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Classical Kozea

This language doesn't like 'and'.

Īm kēigā entāen. Flēgôingā naêri* kēigāe.
The man saw the woman. The man died.
/iːm ˈkɛːɪɣaː ˈɛntaːen flɛːɣoːɪŋaː naˈeːrɪ ˈkɛːɪɣaːe/
see-3PS man-NOM woman-ACC | fade-completely-3PS soul-NOM* man-GEN

Īm kēigā entāen. Flēgôingā naêri* entāer.
The man saw the woman. The woman died.
/iːm ˈkɛːɪɣaː ˈɛntaːen flɛːɣoːɪŋaː naˈeːrɪ ˈɛntaːer/
see-3PS man-NOM woman-ACC | fade-completely-3PS soul-NOM* woman-GEN

Alternatively, pronouns can be used, replacing kēigāe and entāer with ēzā ('his') and ēteir ('hers'), respectively.

* Not exactly a soul, but more like an 'inner force', but it's more than that and a great part of their culture, so I found 'soul' be the simplest translation. It has nothing to do with christianity.

–––

Vanga

This language has no grammatical gender distinction, and that goes for pronouns and verbs as well. Therefore, explicitly stating that the man or the woman died is completely necessary for disambiguation.

Váljáqa ellewi annjœ́qu, ódo syhhýlsi annjœ́qu.
The man saw the woman, and the man died.
[ˈvaːljɑqɑ ˈɛl̥ːœ͡ʊwɪ ˈaŋːœːqʊ ɔː ˈs̻ʏɧːyːl̥s̻ɪ ˈaŋːœːqʊ]
female.person-ACC-DEF see<PAST>.3PS male.person-NOM-DEF and breath.release_last<PAST>-3PS male.person-NOM-DEF

Váljáqa ellewi annjœ́qu, ódo syhhýsi váljœ́qu.
The man saw the woman, and the woman died.
[ˈvaːljɑqɑ ˈɛl̥ːœ͡ʊwɪ ˈaŋːœːqʊ ɔː ˈs̻ʏɧːyːl̥s̻ɪ ˈvaːljœːqʊ]
female.person-ACC-DEF see<PAST>.3PS male.person-NOM-DEF and breath.release_last<PAST>-3PS female.person-NOM-DEF

Note in the latter sentence how 'woman' first is váljáqa but then váljœ́qu. The former is a generally older form, but is still the preferred choice for disambuation, as the word otherwise has the same nominative and accusative. There is no need for disambiguation in the subclause, and so the regular form is used.

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‹› · Ḿḿ Ńń Ĺĺ Śś Źź Ąą Ǫǫ Ųų Æ̨æ̨ Ǽǽ Œ̨œ̨ Œ́œ́ Ɣɣ Y̋y̋ Įį Şş Z̧z̧ θ
Āā Ēē Īī Ōō Ūū ↗ Ṭṭ C̣c̣ Łł Ḍḍ Ṣṣ Ẓẓ Ṇṇ Ŋŋ e˞ o˞ ʷ ʲ ʰ ə


Last edited by Skógvur on Sun 11 Dec 2011, 18:54, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 18:06 
cleardarkness
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Let's say they did use a gender-neutral pronoun instead of repeating the full noun to disambiguate: What would the most natural reading of the sentence be?

Mithara (?) would prefer the reading of the patient being the subject of the dependent clause, unless the patient of the independent clause is semantically invalid as an argument for "die" (i.e., the independent clause being "The man threw a rock." In this case, it would have to be the man who died, because rocks can't die.)

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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 18:27 
ice
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Micamo wrote:
Let's say they did use a gender-neutral pronoun instead of repeating the full noun to disambiguate: What would the most natural reading of the sentence be?

The language is pro-drop, so they naturally wouldn't use a pronoun, though, but either way, it would probably be most natural to interpret it as the man dying.

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‹› · Ḿḿ Ńń Ĺĺ Śś Źź Ąą Ǫǫ Ųų Æ̨æ̨ Ǽǽ Œ̨œ̨ Œ́œ́ Ɣɣ Y̋y̋ Įį Şş Z̧z̧ θ
Āā Ēē Īī Ōō Ūū ↗ Ṭṭ C̣c̣ Łł Ḍḍ Ṣṣ Ẓẓ Ṇṇ Ŋŋ e˞ o˞ ʷ ʲ ʰ ə


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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 20:51 
cleardarkness
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:con: Mithara:

siley'ee keszil aszhunasz
[ʃilɛˀjeː kɛ̥sɪl ʔasʰʊnʌs]
szil-y'ee k-eszil ash-nasz
dragon-see male-dragon 3.ABS.PROX-die

siley'ee keszil anasz
[ʃilɛˀjeː kɛ̥sɪl ʔanʌs]
szil-y'ee k-eszil a-nasz
dragon-see male-dragon EPEN-die

I assumed the visual evidential here for economy reasons (the visual evidential being null), but overall this translation doesn't give you much of a chance to see the cool things my verbs can do because nearly every morpheme is zero in these examples. You do, however, get to see an epenthetic morpheme in "anasz" which showcases the rarely needed rule that every verb must have at least one prefix.

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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 21:09 
mayan
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:vie: Vietnamese
Người đàn ông thấy bà và chết.
CLF male.adult see her and die
Người đàn bà thì ông thấy và chết
CLF female.adult TOP he see and die

The second translation sets the woman as the topic, so when you have the bare form chết as the second clause, it is obvious that you are speaking of her dying.


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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 21:36 
puremetal
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:con: P-Vdangku
Iōlnān zikān iodiu aztexhde luiadā.
ATTR-female ERG-male see-PST.PERF.Ns result die-NPAST.PERF.Ns
The man saw the woman and died.

Zikān nān viik iodiu aztexhde nān luiadā.
ERG-male female time_=see-PST.PERF.Ns result female die-NPAST.PERF.Ns
When the man saw the woman, she died.


:roc: Mandarin
男人看到女人就死了。
nan2ren2 kan4dao4 nv3ren2 jiu4 si3le
male-person see-arrive female-person result die PERF


女人被男人看到就死了。
nv3ren2 bei4 nan2ren2 kan4dao4 jiu4 si3le
female-person PASSIVE male-person see-arrive result die PERF

The female is set as the topic of a passive sentence so that it is clear who is dying. Another option would be to separate it into two clauses:

男人看到女人,女人就死了。
nan2ren2 kan4dao4 nv3ren2, nv3ren2 jiu4 si3le
male-person see-arrive female-person, female-person result die PERF

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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 21:38 
light
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:fra:
L'homme vit (a vu) la femme et (il) mourut (est mort).
the-masc saw the-fem woman and (he) died.

L'homme vit (a vu) la femme, et elle mourut (est morte).
the-masc saw the-fem woman and she died.

(You can't use "vit" in speech.)

(Comma rule in French :3 -> You can only use a comma in clauses before "et" when the subject of the closest next verb isn't the same as the subject of the previous verb. 99% of the French people aren't even aware of this rule, lol.)

French is rarely without any pronoun, even if it gets repetitive.

BONUS

:qbc:
L'homme a vu la femme pis y'ést mort.
the man has seen the woman and he is dead
[lʌm ɑ vy la fam pi je mʌʁ]

L'homme a vu la femme pis èst morte.
the man has seen the woman and she is dead
[lʌm ɑ vy la fam pi ɛ: mʌχt]


Last edited by Visinoid on Sun 11 Dec 2011, 22:15, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 22:11 
wood
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Why the simple past in the Standard French example?

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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 22:14 
light
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Pirka wrote:
Why the simple past in the Standard French example?


Well, you can't use it in speech. I've added the alternatives. :3


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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 22:30 
korean
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Kron:

Ge Run acco ge Rin ek chi.
[ge run acço ge rin ɛk tɕ]
(DEF Man saw DEF woman and died)

Ge Run acco ge Rin ek Rin chi
[ge run acço ge rin ɛk rin tɕ]
(DEF Man saw DEF woman and woman died)

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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 23:18 
mayan
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:fin: Suomennetaanpas taas vaihteeksi.

Mies näki naisen ja kuoli.
man saw woman and died.

Mies näki naisen, ja tämä kuoli.
man saw woman and this died.

Tämä refers to the object.
We have the comma rule, too (I think).


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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 23:48 
light
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Omzinesý wrote:
We have the comma rule, too (I think).


I learned it at school, so maybe I assumed it was French. Perhaps, it's universal. :S


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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Mon 12 Dec 2011, 00:01 
moderator
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:con: Feayran:

Feayran tracks the different referents in a conversation by assigning each one a salient classifier which (usually) continues to refer to its original referent until it gets reassigned.

Lhukálkuhaluszeì tòerhukálkuq.
lh<u-k-á-lku-al<u>s>zeì tòerh<u-k-á-lku>q
see<LEAD-PERF-INTR.IND-MASC.LEAD-FEM<LOC.LEAD>> die<LEAD-PERF-INTR.IND-MASC.LEAD>
male saw female / male died

Lhukálkuhaluszeì tòerhukálsuq.
lh<u-k-á-lku-al<u>s>zeì tòerh<u-k-á-lsu>q
see<LEAD-PERF-INTR.IND-MASC.LEAD-FEM<LOC.LEAD>> die<LEAD-PERF-INTR.IND-FEM.LEAD>
male saw female / female died


You could also coordinate the two predicates with rhúk, to stress that one event followed after the other.

Lhukálkuhaluszeì rhúk tòerhukálkuq.
lh<u-k-á-lku-al<u>s>zeì rhúk tòerh<u-k-á-lku>q
see<LEAD-PERF-INTR.IND-MASC.LEAD-FEM<LOC.LEAD>> next die<LEAD-PERF-INTR.IND-MASC.LEAD>
male saw female / male died
He saw her, and then he died.

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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Mon 12 Dec 2011, 16:51 
darkness
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:con: Kantaranyan:

Yahi arviat xayhi sil pania.
[ˈjehi ˌaːβiˈeʔ ˈʃejhi ˌsil peˈnia]
man woman see<PFV.DIR> then die<PFV.DIR>

Yahi arviat xayhi sil panina.
[ˈjehi ˌaːβiˈeʔ ˈʃejhi ˌsil peˈnina]
man woman see<PFV.DIR> then die<PFV.INV>

Thought I'd have a go at some translating now I have an idea of where I'm going with my grammar! I've decided to use the inverse form to mark the change of subject in the second sentence (it's not normally used with intransitive verbs, but it makes sense here, I think). I also used 'sil' (then) instead of 'in' (and) as the one verb follows on from the other. Note also that 'xayi' (see) is irregular.

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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Mon 12 Dec 2011, 18:37 
earth
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Kett handles this rather elegantly with its topic constructions. This is Cerrais Kett: (mind the past morphemes! ḩa- before consonants, m- before vowels)

Kái'n ksonéicer ḩacént om merált.
[ˈkæjŋ‿ɡzn̩ˈɪjt͡sɪɾ ɦɐˈt͡sent m̩ mɪˈɾald]
man=TOP woman PST-see-ACT.PFV and PST-die-ACT.PFV

Ksonéicer'n ḩacémbr' om merált.
[ksn̩ˈɪjt͡sɪɻɳ ɦɐˈt͡sembɾ‿m̩ mɪˈɾald]
woman=TOP PST-see-PASS.PFV and PST-die-ACT.PFV

The apostrophes are there for the same reason as in English. Cerrais Kett is, after all, a decidedly nonstandard dialect; transcribing it as the standard would, as in English, make the transcriber look like a bit of an idiot.


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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec 2011, 03:11 
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:con: Amjati: Distinguished by simple gender marking.

The man saw the woman and died. (=the man died)
Esu tjarek adomaz kor eledj.
e-su ʨar-ek adom-az kor e-leʥ-ø
3m-saw.3sg.PST man-DEF.m.ERG woman-DEF.f.ABS and 3m-die-3sg.PST

The man saw the woman, and she died. (=the woman died)
Esu tjarek adomaz kor iledj.
e-su ʨar-ek adom-az kor i-leʥ-ø
3m-saw.3sg.PST man-DEF.m.ERG woman-DEF.f.ABS and 3f-die-3sg.PST

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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Sun 18 Dec 2011, 01:17 
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Ossicone wrote:
:con: Amjati: Distinguished by simple gender marking.

The man saw the woman and died. (=the man died)
Esu tjarek adomaz kor eledj.
e-su ʨar-ek adom-az kor e-leʥ-ø
3m-saw.3sg.PST man-DEF.m.ERG woman-DEF.f.ABS and 3m-die-3sg.PST

The man saw the woman, and she died. (=the woman died)
Esu tjarek adomaz kor iledj.
e-su ʨar-ek adom-az kor i-leʥ-ø
3m-saw.3sg.PST man-DEF.m.ERG woman-DEF.f.ABS and 3f-die-3sg.PST



What if the two participants belong to the same gender?

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Last edited by Xing on Sun 18 Dec 2011, 20:08, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Sun 18 Dec 2011, 01:31 
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Then it is ambiguous.

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 Post subject: Re: A saw B and died
PostPosted: Thu 12 Apr 2012, 01:50 
sinic
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:eng: Sightly altered because I don't have a verb 'to die' at this point and it's far too late to be dreaming up new words.
The man saw the woman and went. (The man went)
The man saw the woman and she went. (The woman went)

:con: Zidhgebzhail - Assuming that the going is as a direct result of the seeing. Note that by default, Zidhgebzhail assumes that the subject/agent of the main clause is the subject/agent of the dependent clause.

ozil azefa gAin houng [hiloz/zy] gIn.
Man saw woman, as a result, [agent>subject/he] went.
ozil azefa gAin houng hefoza/za gIn.
Man saw woman, as a result, [patient>subject/she] went.

Spoiler: show
oz-il az-ef-a g-Ai-n h-oung [hiloz/z-y] g-I-n.
man-ERG.SG.M woman-ACC-SG.F PST-see-simple SUBORDINATOR-RESULTATIVE [switch.referent.ERG>ABS/3-ABS.SG.M] PST-go-SIMPLE.
oz-il az-ef-a g-Ai-n h-oung hefoz-a/z-a g-I-n.
man-ERG.SG.M woman-ACC-SG.F PST-see-simple SUBORDINATOR-RESULTATIVE switch.referent.ACC>ABS-F/3-ABS-SG.F PST-go-SIMPLE.

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