Oh, hehe. Okay. I was just curious because I was like "if they read that in an article or something, then that article has some explaining to do".atman wrote:Oh, there's a simple explanation for that: I don't speak a word of Chinese . Plus I cited from memory, making errors doubly likely.Thakowsaizmu wrote: Also, <dui> is not Chinese for two. <er / 二> is the numeral two, and <liang / 两> is used for counters. I am not sure where you got <dui> as two for Chinese, but your source was a little off.
False cognates
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Re: False cognates
Re: False cognates
The 'reported speech' marker in Tibetan is pronounced [sè], curiously similar to 'say' in English.
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Re: False cognates
There are also corresponding threads on both (the abandoned and the active) Polish Conlanger fora.
http://www.conlanger.fora.pl/lingwistyk ... ,2395.html
http://jezykotw.webd.pl/f/index.php?topic=53.0
(Despite what the titles say, they are about the false cognates.)
There is somewhat like a list compiling the stuff from the former one: (except that single list)
haben, habere (to have)
motyl (butterfly), Mote (moth)
mierzyć, measure
deus, theos, Nahuatl teotl (god)
Tier, therion (animal)
skład, squad
Name, namae
:fas: shesh, :heb: shesh (six)
laska, lass
spędzać, spend
krocze, crotch
używać, use
wkroczyć, encroach
:udm: шаер (counrty), shire
странный, strange
Yakut дьахтар (woman), IE dʰugh₂tḗr (daughter)
al-ard / الأرض, Erde (earth)
wymiotować, vomitare (vomit)
pasożyt, parasite
krzyczeć, cry
słodki, sweet
raczej, rather
kilka, quelques (some)
Swahili hakuna, aucune (none)
sklep, shop
ano, Slavic ono (it)
όλος, all
ὅλος, whole, :heb: kol / כָּל
tun, tenni (do)
:kom: Чолӧм, :heb: shalom, czołem (hello)
radca, raja
büyük, big, :tat: bik / бик
pojke, boy
nyaklánc, necklace
wikiwiki, quick quick
majak, Sanskrit māyā (ilussion)
hara, :heb: har (mountain)
sūra, Sans. sūtra
:roc: nü, nő (woman)
gówno, guano
mirar, miru (see)
Haus, ház
olla (be), ol- (be, become)
(meg)öl (kill), öl- (die)
wiele, viele (many)
obsc. skurwiel, scoundrel
hetman, ataman
zgon, gone, agony
eszik, essen
Nahuatl huel, well
Egyptian dšrt, desertum
:kat: tbili / თბილი, теплый (warm)
dupa (ass), do (bathroom)
andare, wander
unohtaa, unutmak (forget)
devil, :fas: dêv / دیو
lak(ik) (dwell), locus (place)
drzemać, dream
kaal, kalju, kel (bald)
y, i (and)
yo, jo (I)
ice, :zlm: ais
Kiche Popol Voh, Vox Populi
warowny (fortified), vár (castle)
warować, vár (wait)
kaj, kaj (where)
Old Eng. ēa (water), Accadian Ea (water deity)
Gaul, Gael
łój, Ugro-Finnic *βoje (fat)
ściśle, strictly
wsparcie, support
nauka (science), znać (know)
nic, niets
stypa (wake ceremony), IE stīpos (stiff)
ipse, itse (same)
bra, dobra (good)
czar, charm
pays, państwo (state)
hoy, heute (today)
:heb: oneg / עונג (joy), onne- (luck)
cor, kokoro (heart)
hideous, ohydny
vezér, vizier
po, på (on, in)
:heb: ayin / עין, eye
:heb: ozen / אזן, Germanic auzo (ear)
cichy, tyst (silent)
rozum, razón (reason), :heb: racon / רצון (will)
utopić (drown), utopia
rai (true), vraj (supposedly)
sugall (inspire), suggest
łona, one
drzwi (door), drzewo (tree)
guitar, sitar
Mund (mouth), mond (speak)
katować (torture), katorga
rekolekcje (spiritual excercises), lekcje (classes, lessons)
lamb, llama
aussi, auch (too)
:srp: istok, east
:fas: bad, bad
łupić, lop (steal)
obraz (picture), obras (works)
:sqi: ik, iku (go)
:roc: ěr / 耳, ear
:roc: jībā / 鸡巴 (dick), cipa (pussy)
jaså (really), jasne (of course)
omijać, omit
rodnik, radical
znużony, изнурённый (tired out)
deska (board), desk
slang ryć, reír (laugh)
sacristy, Christ
kel, kelti (get up)
coll. dać drapaka, drapetévo / δραπετεύω (escape)
év (year), eeuw (century)
saeculum, Min-nan sè-kí (century)
http://www.conlanger.fora.pl/lingwistyk ... ,2395.html
http://jezykotw.webd.pl/f/index.php?topic=53.0
(Despite what the titles say, they are about the false cognates.)
There is somewhat like a list compiling the stuff from the former one: (except that single list)
haben, habere (to have)
motyl (butterfly), Mote (moth)
mierzyć, measure
deus, theos, Nahuatl teotl (god)
Tier, therion (animal)
skład, squad
Name, namae
:fas: shesh, :heb: shesh (six)
laska, lass
spędzać, spend
krocze, crotch
używać, use
wkroczyć, encroach
:udm: шаер (counrty), shire
странный, strange
Yakut дьахтар (woman), IE dʰugh₂tḗr (daughter)
al-ard / الأرض, Erde (earth)
wymiotować, vomitare (vomit)
pasożyt, parasite
krzyczeć, cry
słodki, sweet
raczej, rather
kilka, quelques (some)
Swahili hakuna, aucune (none)
sklep, shop
ano, Slavic ono (it)
όλος, all
ὅλος, whole, :heb: kol / כָּל
tun, tenni (do)
:kom: Чолӧм, :heb: shalom, czołem (hello)
radca, raja
büyük, big, :tat: bik / бик
pojke, boy
nyaklánc, necklace
wikiwiki, quick quick
majak, Sanskrit māyā (ilussion)
hara, :heb: har (mountain)
sūra, Sans. sūtra
:roc: nü, nő (woman)
gówno, guano
mirar, miru (see)
Haus, ház
olla (be), ol- (be, become)
(meg)öl (kill), öl- (die)
wiele, viele (many)
obsc. skurwiel, scoundrel
hetman, ataman
zgon, gone, agony
eszik, essen
Nahuatl huel, well
Egyptian dšrt, desertum
:kat: tbili / თბილი, теплый (warm)
dupa (ass), do (bathroom)
andare, wander
unohtaa, unutmak (forget)
devil, :fas: dêv / دیو
lak(ik) (dwell), locus (place)
drzemać, dream
kaal, kalju, kel (bald)
y, i (and)
yo, jo (I)
ice, :zlm: ais
Kiche Popol Voh, Vox Populi
warowny (fortified), vár (castle)
warować, vár (wait)
kaj, kaj (where)
Old Eng. ēa (water), Accadian Ea (water deity)
Gaul, Gael
łój, Ugro-Finnic *βoje (fat)
ściśle, strictly
wsparcie, support
nauka (science), znać (know)
nic, niets
stypa (wake ceremony), IE stīpos (stiff)
ipse, itse (same)
bra, dobra (good)
czar, charm
pays, państwo (state)
hoy, heute (today)
:heb: oneg / עונג (joy), onne- (luck)
cor, kokoro (heart)
hideous, ohydny
vezér, vizier
po, på (on, in)
:heb: ayin / עין, eye
:heb: ozen / אזן, Germanic auzo (ear)
cichy, tyst (silent)
rozum, razón (reason), :heb: racon / רצון (will)
utopić (drown), utopia
rai (true), vraj (supposedly)
sugall (inspire), suggest
łona, one
drzwi (door), drzewo (tree)
guitar, sitar
Mund (mouth), mond (speak)
katować (torture), katorga
rekolekcje (spiritual excercises), lekcje (classes, lessons)
lamb, llama
aussi, auch (too)
:srp: istok, east
:fas: bad, bad
łupić, lop (steal)
obraz (picture), obras (works)
:sqi: ik, iku (go)
:roc: ěr / 耳, ear
:roc: jībā / 鸡巴 (dick), cipa (pussy)
jaså (really), jasne (of course)
omijać, omit
rodnik, radical
znużony, изнурённый (tired out)
deska (board), desk
slang ryć, reír (laugh)
sacristy, Christ
kel, kelti (get up)
coll. dać drapaka, drapetévo / δραπετεύω (escape)
év (year), eeuw (century)
saeculum, Min-nan sè-kí (century)
Thrice the brinded cat hath mew'd.
Re: False cognates
Some of those are a bit distant and far-fetched but most of them are eerily similar!
My little contribution is that none of lacus, :gla: loch or lákkos are cognate to English lake, although they all mean lake. (they are all cognate to each other though)
My little contribution is that none of lacus, :gla: loch or lákkos are cognate to English lake, although they all mean lake. (they are all cognate to each other though)
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Re: False cognates
Here's an example of the opposite situation, where one might not expect these to be cognate but they are :XD
hour ·· Latin hora "hour, time, season" ·· Greek ὥρα "season" ·· PIE *yor-a- ·· PIE *yor-/*yer- "year, season" ·· PIE *yer-o- ·· Proto-Germanic *jæram ·· Old English gear ·· year
hour ·· Latin hora "hour, time, season" ·· Greek ὥρα "season" ·· PIE *yor-a- ·· PIE *yor-/*yer- "year, season" ·· PIE *yer-o- ·· Proto-Germanic *jæram ·· Old English gear ·· year
~Caeli~ (genitive) the sky
~Folia~ (neuter plural) a leaf, collection of leaves
~Folia~ (neuter plural) a leaf, collection of leaves
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Re: False cognates
I've actually wondered about those, thanks for clearing that up.Milyamd wrote:Also: cycle, circle.
And now that I've checked Wiktionary, it turns out the actual Latin cognate of cycle is colus, which Wikipedia in turn tells me is a type of sea snail (well, in English). Fascinating stuff, etymology.
Re: False cognates
Icelandic <mál> /mauːl/ and Korean <말> /ma̠ːɭ/ both mean "language".
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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Re: False cognates
Another neat one where the words seem unrelated but in fact really are direct cognates is the case of English guest and host as well as Latin hostis (not the direct source of EN host, but related).
EN guest and LA hostis are both derived from Proto-Indo-European *gʰóstis, defined on Wiktionary as "stranger, guest, host, someone with whom one has reciprocal duties of hospitality".
The word guest is Germanic, tho influenced phonetically in today's English by the Norse reflex gestʀ with a hard /g/ as opposed to the palatalised ġiest of Old English. Apparently back then it could still cover both meanings and even had a poëtical use as enemy. Perhaps Old Norse helped narrow down the English meaning too.
Latin hostis generally meant enemy (cf. EN hostile) or stranger.
The word host of course comes from Latin, a derivative of the same word that yielded hostis. Quoting Wiktionary's entry on the English host:
EN guest and LA hostis are both derived from Proto-Indo-European *gʰóstis, defined on Wiktionary as "stranger, guest, host, someone with whom one has reciprocal duties of hospitality".
The word guest is Germanic, tho influenced phonetically in today's English by the Norse reflex gestʀ with a hard /g/ as opposed to the palatalised ġiest of Old English. Apparently back then it could still cover both meanings and even had a poëtical use as enemy. Perhaps Old Norse helped narrow down the English meaning too.
Latin hostis generally meant enemy (cf. EN hostile) or stranger.
The word host of course comes from Latin, a derivative of the same word that yielded hostis. Quoting Wiktionary's entry on the English host:
From Old French oste (French: hôte), from Middle Latin hospitem, accusative of hospes (“a host, also a sourjourner, visitor, guest; hence, a foreigner, a stranger”), from Proto-Indo-European *gʰóspot- (“master of guests”), from *gʰóstis (“stranger, guest, host, someone with whom one has reciprocal duties of hospitality”) and *pótis (“owner, master, host, husband”).
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Re: False cognates
I don't know if anyone's said these yet, but…
shimo "frost" and zima "winter"
taberu "to eat" and table
atsui "hot" and hot
Are all false cognate pairs I've heard, from off the top of my head.
shimo "frost" and zima "winter"
taberu "to eat" and table
atsui "hot" and hot
Are all false cognate pairs I've heard, from off the top of my head.
Re: False cognates
Two similar ones: The passive marker in Vietnamese is bị, and the third person copula in Archi is bi. Both very similar to the English verb 'to be'.
Re: False cognates
Italian 'ciao' and Portuguese 'tchau'.
The pronunciation sounds like each other, but in Italian, it means 'Hello' and in Portuguese it means 'bye'.
The Portuguese speaker may think that the Italian is rude in the first moment, because the first thing the Italian will say may be interpreted as 'bye'.
The pronunciation sounds like each other, but in Italian, it means 'Hello' and in Portuguese it means 'bye'.
The Portuguese speaker may think that the Italian is rude in the first moment, because the first thing the Italian will say may be interpreted as 'bye'.
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
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Re: False cognates
A difference in meaning doesn't disqualify two words from being cognates (at least, I'm almost certain it doesn't). I'd be willing to bet that the two words come from the same source, which makes them technically cognates after all.Squall wrote:Italian 'ciao' and Portuguese 'tchau'.
The pronunciation sounds like each other, but in Italian, it means 'Hello' and in Portuguese it means 'bye'.
The Portuguese speaker may think that the Italian is rude in the first moment, because the first thing the Italian will say may be interpreted as 'bye'.
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Re: False cognates
Yeah, cognates are words with the same etymon. So false cognates are words that look like they are descended from the same source but actually aren't. Meaning is secondary. If anything, it's similar meanings that give the impression of a relationship.
Ouais, les mots apparentés sont des mots avec le même étymon. Alors les mots faussement apparentés sont des mots qui paraissent être descendus de la même source mais qui ne le sont pas en réalité. Leurs sens sont secondaires. C'est plutôt des sens similaires qui donnent l'impression d'une relation.
Ouais, les mots apparentés sont des mots avec le même étymon. Alors les mots faussement apparentés sont des mots qui paraissent être descendus de la même source mais qui ne le sont pas en réalité. Leurs sens sont secondaires. C'est plutôt des sens similaires qui donnent l'impression d'une relation.
Re: False cognates
Additionally, ciao means both "hello" and "goodbye" in Italian.
Re: False cognates
Same with hej (or hej, hej) in Swedish and some other corresponding colloquial forms like tja (surprisingly similar to ciao – I wonder if there is some connection there).
Re: False cognates
I would think the latter being a loan from the former would disqualify them as cognate, false or otherwise :shimobaatar wrote:A difference in meaning doesn't disqualify two words from being cognates.Squall wrote:Italian 'ciao' and Portuguese 'tchau'. The pronunciation sounds like each other, but in Italian, it means 'Hello' and in Portuguese it means 'bye'.
The Portuguese speaker may think that the Italian is rude in the first moment, because the first thing the Italian will say may be interpreted as 'bye'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciao
☯ 道可道,非常道
☯ 名可名,非常名
☯ 名可名,非常名
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Re: False cognates
some examples:
English sun and Manchu šun("sun", pronunced /ʃun/)
English male and English female("female" is not the derived form of "male")
English he(3rd masc subject pronoun), Min Nan 伊(3rd pronoun, pronunced /i˥˥/) and Manchu i(3rd subject pronoun, pronunced /ī/)
Czech/Slovak/Polish ona(3rd fem subject pronoun) and Japanese 女("woman", pronunced /onná/)
English throw and Mandarin Chinese 投("to throw/to cast", pronunced as /tʰoʊ˧˥/)
English gang(from Old English gang (“a journey, a way, a passage”) ) and Chinese 行(one of the pronunciation of 行 in Old Chinese was likely to be /*[g]ˤaŋ/ or something like that when it means "rank, row")
English sun and Manchu šun("sun", pronunced /ʃun/)
English male and English female("female" is not the derived form of "male")
English he(3rd masc subject pronoun), Min Nan 伊(3rd pronoun, pronunced /i˥˥/) and Manchu i(3rd subject pronoun, pronunced /ī/)
Czech/Slovak/Polish ona(3rd fem subject pronoun) and Japanese 女("woman", pronunced /onná/)
English throw and Mandarin Chinese 投("to throw/to cast", pronunced as /tʰoʊ˧˥/)
English gang(from Old English gang (“a journey, a way, a passage”) ) and Chinese 行(one of the pronunciation of 行 in Old Chinese was likely to be /*[g]ˤaŋ/ or something like that when it means "rank, row")
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: False cognates
Since loanwords share an etymological source, why wouldn't they be considered cognates?Lao Kou wrote:I would think the latter being a loan from the former would disqualify them as cognate, false or otherwise :shimobaatar wrote:A difference in meaning doesn't disqualify two words from being cognates.Squall wrote:Italian 'ciao' and Portuguese 'tchau'. The pronunciation sounds like each other, but in Italian, it means 'Hello' and in Portuguese it means 'bye'.
The Portuguese speaker may think that the Italian is rude in the first moment, because the first thing the Italian will say may be interpreted as 'bye'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciao
Re: False cognates
Also Hebrew "Shalom" and Hawaiin "aloha"Skógvur wrote:Same with hej (or hej, hej) in Swedish and some other corresponding colloquial forms like tja (surprisingly similar to ciao – I wonder if there is some connection there).
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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