Gothic Language Revival Association

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
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Lambuzhao
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by Lambuzhao »

wulþus in hauhistjam guda jah ana airþai gawairþi in mannam godis wiljins!
glory-NOM.SG PRP high-SUPER.DAT.PL god-DAT.SG CNJ PRP earth-DAT.SG peace-NOM.SG
PRP man-DAT.PL good-N.GEN.SG will-GEN.SG
Glory to God in the highest, and peace among men of good will

I love the ring/sound/flow of this phrase, especially /ana airþai gawairþi / [:)]

Makes me yearn for a Gothic Christian Church to go to services. [:'(]
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by Aeluro »

I too like the sound of /ana airþai gawairþi/. I started again learning Gothic a bit in summer. I will take a look at this thread every now and then, to see if people write more. I just thought now that maybe we should take passages of the Gothic Bible and look at them together.
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Zontas
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by Zontas »

I wanna make an latinization orthography reform again. Remember that attested Ulfilian and Crimean Gothic either was transcribed by foreigners or in a uncial script that isn't modernized like Latin or Greek or Cyrillic. Below is a modernization of Gothic runes. Nonetheless, standard transcription should be understood.

So how's this (on the right side of slashes are non-diacritic variants for foreign characters; apostrophes separate digraphs):

Stuff That Stays The Same

/ɒ i u (y) m p t k kʷ x l r j w h hʷ/ <a i u y m p t k q x l r j w h ƕ/hw>

Vowel Problems

<ai/ aí ái ē> and <au/ aú áu ō> represent /ɛ ɛ e: ɔ ɔ o:/ but we may not know for certain what they even mean. However, the <ai> and <au> digraph families must represent something alike, while <aí aú ā> on precede h, hinting at a preglottal lengthening for <a aí aú> (as length was normally unphonemic). Also, ei and ū represent long i and u is a bit too hellenological, a more analoguos system should be devized. Lastly, my opinion on the <iu> and <iw> scenario is that it separates /iw/ and /i.w/ and, <ai> and <au> were /ɛ/ and /ɔ/ short but /ɛ:/ and // long, and /ɛ:/ and /o/ before glottals. Long vowels should be marked, even word-finally.

Overview:

/ɒ: ɛ ɛ: e: i: ɔ ɔ: o: u:/ ā/aa æ/ae e ē/ee ī/ei å/ao o ō/oo ū/ou

Universal Nasal

/ƞ/ is the true phoneme of /n/ as it is articulated in accordance to whatever the succeeding sound is. In spite of this, it is written <n> everywhere.

Plosives and Spirants

The voiceless spirants are only phonemic with the voiced plosives word-initially (however, voiceless spirants managing to retain their unvoicing medially), therefore word-medial /β ð/, and respective lexeme/ morpheme-final /ɸ θ// lexeme/ morpheme-initial /b d/ related to them will be <v> and <d>.
•/b d ɸ θ/ elsewhere will double the corresponding consonant in the old orthography.
•/gʷ/ is ȝ/ gw.

Ending S/ Z

Finally, <s> will be <s> if before the <-s> inflectional ending rather than drop. <z> is used for lexeme-exterior/ morpheme-final /s/ as well as original /z/.

===

Modernized Gothic

Aa

Γг
Əə
Єє
Uu
Zz
Һһ
Ψψ
Jj

Λλ



tbc.
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Lambuzhao
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by Lambuzhao »

Remember that attested Ulfilian and Crimean Gothic either was transcribed by foreigners or in a uncial script that isn't modernized like Latin or Greek or Cyrillic.
Wha?

Wulfila "invented" the Gothic alphabet, pretty much back when the :got: People existed. So, that's what the Goths had to work with way back then , right?
Well, spooling the time-bobbin forward, it would make sense that a descendant of Wulfilan :got: script would look somewhere between :ell: and :rus:, wouldn't it?


Əə - what is? /d/? Why not just Δ Δ??
Jj - why not G G??

If one would err, err on the side of Wulfila, IMHO, rather than introduce Latinate symbols that, for whatever reason, he avoided.

Also. please marry your new orthography with side-order of your revised phonemes.

Not to anticipate you too much, but this is what I have been using here, and when I journal in :got: :

A B Γ Δ Є U Z h Ψ K Λ M N G ∩ Π R S T Y F X Θ O ↑
(I use :got: sampi /↑/ for loanwords)

When I want to get fancy-schmancy in my journal, I use one of these miraculous fonts:

Midjungards (Robert Pfeffer)
http://robert-pfeffer.net/schriftarten/ ... gards.html

OR

Serif AngloSaxon Runes (Naeddyr)
http://naeddyr.deviantart.com/art/Serif ... -111220894

(Some of the symbols (∩) I pilfer from Armenian)
(BTW: Naeddyr also has a Blackletter Runic font - but only as a drawing [:(] )

P.S. - Completely off the orthography topic, Here's a pretty copious list of resources/links prepared by Odinismo Visigodo:
http://odinismovisigodo.blogspot.com/20 ... links.html


:got: is one of the most underrated languages there is. I applaud your efforts. Keep 'em coming!
ЄYXARIST MIXЄΛЄBЄ :!:
[:D]
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atman
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by atman »

@Zontas:

Unfortunately, I'm anything but an expert in old Germanic languages. So all I can say is: keep at it!
Lambuzhao wrote:(Some of the symbols (∩) I pilfer from Armenian)
I'm sure Mesrop Mashtots would've approved.
Lambuzhao wrote: :got: is one of the most underrated languages there is.
Well, according to my informal, personal classification of the classical IE languages:

Indo-European Big Three: Latin, Ancient Greek, Sanskrit
Indo-European Significant Seven: Old Irish, Old Church Slavonic, Gothic, Classical Armenian, Hittite, Avestan, Tocharian B
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.
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Lambuzhao
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by Lambuzhao »

I just got a flash for a comic/graphic novel with the likes of the Watchmen, X-Men, Justice League, Age of Bronze, Mystery Men, Annunanki -

The PIE Significant Seven!

Celtic: Cernunnos
http://serpent77.files.wordpress.com/20 ... nunnos.jpg

Slavonic Monk (with his Thurible of Truth)
http://www.cityofsteamwiki.com/images/1 ... ultEye.jpg

(Come to think of it, I'd prefer Vasilisa the Wise's cunning resourcefulness any day)
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/ ... 5xzq6n.jpg


:got: The Varangian
http://02varvara.files.wordpress.com/20 ... 172987.jpg
(Thor would be the obvious choice, but :got: þeihvô is feminine - Lady Thor? Hmmmm... [<3] Thor for many a year...I think I may go with Lady þeihvô - pretty darn badass)
http://th03.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2 ... 5905hp.jpg


:arm: Eagle (resurrected from Kick Ass)
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/squ ... titled.png

Hittite: Prince Artatama
(probably spoke Hurrian, but if you google this name with Romance des Trois Empires...you'll get a nice pic that no longer exists on DeviantART)

Hittite: Prince Kail Mursili (of Red River fame)
http://s1.zerochan.net/Kail.Mursili.600.565058.jpg

Avestan: Vohu Mano (was going to go with Zarathustra, but then found this pic. Theihvo's already a god, so let's go with an angel...)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-L6ZnwNhDAZo/T ... 060002.jpg

Tokharian: Lāntsa (Nomadic Warrior of the Caravanserai)
http://25.media.tumblr.com/13a86b097b43 ... 1_1280.png

Just a quick brainstorm here.
Candidates for Italic, Greek , Sanskrit and Baltic and Albanian are up for grabs. I was a big fan of the Hercules
Charlton comic :
http://comicbookrealm.com/cover-scan/7f ... sue-11.jpg
Thus there could be a romantic thing between Hercules and Lady þeihvô (not to be imposing my heterosexuality here too much. For all I know, Lady Thorr and Vasilisa may have a thang goin on (?) ).

Further ideas?
Comments?

Gracias, Atman!
[;)]
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Zontas
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by Zontas »

atman wrote: Indo-European Big Three: Classical Latin, Ancient Greek, Sanskrit
Indo-European Significant Seven: Old Irish, Old Slavonic, Old Gothic, Classical Hayastanic, Neshite, Avestan, Kuchean
Besser. But hey, the names are my opinion. Note from hereon I will call Bible Gothic "Old Gothic" as it wasn't exclusively a religious language and the transcription was intended for more than clerical use (probably upper class use in general as most alphabets).

@Lambuzhao I understand the confusion and annoyance about the orthography, as even I don't use that transliteration anymore (I was too lazy to update it). My main goal in transcibing the alphabet anew was to match the characters as best as I can, but I inconveniently forgot about the Caucus dynamic duo so I had to go really desperate. The reason /d/ is shwa is because the script uses ∂ which looks like shwa which is what I could find. The /g/ being jay is because untittled <j> looks like cursive pedal gamma and <J> an upside-down capital gamma.

The reasons I dislike Jacob Grimm's transliteration is that it carries the hyperhellenization of the script and makes it more counterintuitive than necessary (I would kill to write vɣ), but this was a time when works had minimal backup so at worst it's outdated, because it is useful for how to original was written.

/ɛ/ and /ɛ:/ weren't phonemically apart, so I gave them the same symbol, despite coming from two sources. Ditto with /ɔ/ and /ɔ:/. I have a feeling <ái> and <áu> were really <æɛ̯> and <ɒɔ̯>.

/y/ was <y> in Greek, and only becomes <w> in Grimm's transciption because Gothic /w/ was marked <Y>.

/ŋ/ being <g> was unkind to the eyes, and more suited to a language that didn't contrast /gg/ and /ŋg/, among other things.

/s/ being <z> was to prepare for lenition between vowels, so I just placed it word-finally and on strong verbs. Now I just use it to separate root nouns from i-stems and a-stems, on prefixable verbs, and pronoun-finally. Original /z/ is still <z>, while /s/ is <s> elsewhere.

/x/ borrowed is still <x>.

/b~β~ɸ/ and /d~ð~θ/ (as opposed to /ɸ~β/ and /θ~ð/) being <v> and <d> is from Spanish. Now I just use <b> and <d>. Original /ɸ~β/ and /θ~ð/ are now <f> but <v> in the same environments <s> becomes <z> [except before word-final <s> on root nouns instead of as plain <v>] and <þ> but <ð> in the same environments <f> becomes <v> (I use plain <th> to mark both if either are unavailable).

/g~ɣ~x/ being yogh was reminiscent of Old English, and honestly I prefer it to plain <g>. But yogh aint available on my alt codes, and <gh> is to long, so I use <g> when yogh can't be typed. Sometimes <x>'ll do.

/gʷ/ being ghe was an analog to <q>. I now just use w̄ or ww or gw. I love how labiovelar (not plain velar or uvular or clicked or radical) <q> doesn't follow <u>. I wish more transcriptions did that besides Goidelic.

/ᴀ:/ only occurs as a product of the nasal spirant law, so I just write <an> before a glottal letter, which I'll do with <un> . /u:/ being <ou> elsewhere (<ū> in diacritical orthography) is by analogy to <ei> and I'm astonished nobody likes this undiacritical alternative to <ū>.

/e:/, /i:/, and /o:/ I write simply as <ē>, <ī>, and <ō>, unless macrons are not available then I write <e>, <ei>, and <o>- with /ɛ/ and /ɔ/ becoming <ae> and <ao>.

I use either macrons, doubled vowels, the above formations, tildes (in the case of nazalization) or acute accents to mark long vowels and an apostrophe to separate digraphs.

Now how's the orthography?

And yeah, I want Revived Gothic to likely be a simplification of Old Gothic á la Kernish with no pretense of a natural descendant since the Bastarnæ (Crimean Goths I swear) brought the tongue into the 18th century.
Last edited by Zontas on 17 Mar 2014 17:21, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by Zontas »

Also, I think it would use Cyrillic and Latin (depending on area) if it were used today. Also, I remember using the up arrow and q for 900 and 90 as well as /c/ and /ŋ/ for loans before I just stopped bothering with the native script.

Btw <j̄/ jj/ gj> = /ɟ/ and <e o> = /ɛ ɔ/.
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by atman »

Zontas wrote:Indo-European Significant Seven: Old Irish, Old Slavonic, Old Gothic, Classical Hayastanic, Neshite, Avestan, Kuchean
Well, you see, I prefer using the names that are actually used by Indo-Europeanists (and immediately understood in the context of IE studies)... there's no reason to further complicate a woefully complicated field, is there?
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by Zontas »

atman wrote:
Zontas wrote:Indo-European Significant Seven: Old Irish, Old Slavonic, Old Gothic, Classical Hayastanic, Neshite, Avestan, Kuchean
Well, you see, I prefer using the names that are actually used by Indo-Europeanists (and immediately understood in the context of IE studies)... there's no reason to further complicate a woefully complicated field, is there?
Ah, but they fucked up yon nomenclature by making up terms the natives didn't use- eh? Also one non-compound concept gets one word not more.
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atman
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by atman »

Zontas wrote:
atman wrote:
Zontas wrote:Indo-European Significant Seven: Old Irish, Old Slavonic, Old Gothic, Classical Hayastanic, Neshite, Avestan, Kuchean
Well, you see, I prefer using the names that are actually used by Indo-Europeanists (and immediately understood in the context of IE studies)... there's no reason to further complicate a woefully complicated field, is there?
Ah, but they fucked up yon nomenclature by making up terms the natives didn't use- eh? Also one non-compound concept gets one word not more.
Don't worry, it's just a little quibble anyway. But I think that, for the sake of clarity, one should use the standard nomenclature as found in any IE textbook worth its salt. And I'm pretty sure Hayastanic isn't even a word. Hayeren, Grabar, Krapar, are words, "Hayastanic" is a little silly.
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by Anima »

Anyone hve any suggestions on handwriting in Ulfilas' letters?
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by elemtilas »

Anima wrote:Anyone hve any suggestions on handwriting in Ulfilas' letters?
I don't understand what you're really asking. I guess the obvious answer to the question is "use a pen". A nice calligraphy nib should be satisfactory, given the style of the original letter forms; but for ordinary writing, a biro should do just as well! -- but really, what is it in particular you have in mind?
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by Lambuzhao »

Erm....ditto.

What do you mean, Anima?

a) a suggestion for how to write Wulfilan letters by hand?
:?:
b) a font of Wulfilan letters with a handwritten feel,
which see:
http://robert-pfeffer.net/schriftarten/myrkwid.gif

c) Cursive connected Wulfilan letters ???
(Some kind of combo of Cursive Greek/Coptic/and or Cyrillic might be of use/help)

Greek Cursive (one variety)
http://typophile.com/files/GreekScriptP ... 7_5255.gif

Cursive Coptic (an example)
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/l ... tic404.jpg

Cursive (Russian) Cyrillic
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp254rqTg01qlsp4b.jpg

:?:
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Egerius
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by Egerius »

Anima wrote:Anyone have any suggestions on handwriting in Ulfilas' letters?
I guess you mean "cursive", in the sense of quickly written letters, since all writing in Gothic that survived has been done by hand.

I give you this: http://app.ub.uu.se/arv/codex/faksimile ... k_137.html
The fifth and seventh column are the most interesting for creating a cursive Gothic alphabet.
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by Lambuzhao »

Apaukalupseis / Andhuleins
Haubiþ XIII

1.1.Jah waurms wiþra marein ana staþa was.
CNJ serpent-NOM.SG PRP sea-DAT PRP place-DAT be-PST.3SG
Spoiler:
From the alternate St. Gesmas codex:

Jah waurms stōþ at þamma marein.

1.2 Jah gasaƕ dius us marein usstandandō , habandō twailif haubide jah tiuhan haurne,

CNJ see<PST>1SG beast-ACC.SG PRP sea-ACC rise.up-PRS.PTCP.N.ACC.SG | have-PRS.PTCP.N.ACC.SG NUM head-GEN.PL CNJ NUM horn-GEN.PL

jah tiuhan waipe ana haurnam is, jah namna wajamereins ana haubidam is wesun.
CNJ NUM crown-GEN.PL PRP horn-DAT.PL 3SG.N.GEN | CNJ name-NOM.PL blasphemy-GEN.SG PRP head-DAT.PL 3SG.N.GEN be<PST>3PL

Lions and leopards Ghidoras and bears; Oh My!
[}:D]

http://mattanslow.files.wordpress.com/2 ... pestry.jpg
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Lambuzhao
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by Lambuzhao »

Another addition to Gothic resources - sums neologisms

https://got.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedi ... 0%90%8C%B0

[:)]
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by Lambuzhao »

was looking for some sources on Gothic month names, and I found this -

http://www.otizvora.com/wp-content/Knig ... 202012.pdf

I scrolled down to page six. I had no idea 'Anakin' was an apostle (!)
[xP]

And his feast day happens to be November 30 (!!)

The wonders caused by misreading never cease!
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by ellisk »

Faginô, rôdja fawái gutarazdái wiljáuh sô razda anaqiujan. Ni kann gaháitan ei allata sijái suni.

Hello, I speak a little Gothic and I'd like to revive it, but I can't promise that everything will be correct. (How'd I do?)
I'm busy with other things but whenever I can bring myself to, I study some Gothic from Wright's book. But, like I said, I'm super busy, so it's not something I'm really good at. But I'd gladly help out.
they/them/their
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Learning: :got: :gle: :fra:
Wanting to learn: :cor:
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Re: Gothic Language Revival Association

Post by Lambuzhao »

Faginô, Ellisk!
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