Lago

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thaen
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Lago

Post by thaen »

This is the Official Scratchpad Thread for all things Lago: Proto-Lago, Old Lago, Middle Lago, Lago proper, etc.

Background

Lago is la lengua de mis conejos preciosos; it is spoken by lagomorphs and their ilk. It boasts nasalized stops and a lack of phonemic unvoiced stops (both starting in Old Lago), rhoticized vowels (ogoneks -- Huzzah!), and shift away from my preferred polysynthesis. I must say that I was inspired to make Lago isolating by shimo in the Odd Glossing Game thread.

I'll post more here both about the background of the language as well as whatever little cultural thingies I come up with.
:con: Nillahimma
:con: Øð!
:con: Coneylang

I am the Great Rabbit. Fear me, O Crabs!
Spoiler:
ı θ ð ʃ ɲ ŋ ʔ ɛ ə ø ʑ ɕ ʷ ʲ ⁿ
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thaen
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Re: Lago

Post by thaen »

Old Lago

At least, I think this is Old Lago...

/b mb d nd g ŋg/ <b mb d nd g ng>
/m m̥ n n̥ ŋ ŋ̥/ <m mh n nh ng ngh>
/f v θ ð s z ɬ ʃ~ʃ͡x~h ɣ~ɦ/ <f v th dh s z lh~ɫ sh zh>
/ʍ w r~ɾ l j/ <wh w r l y>

Consonants may be geminate.

/i ɪ u ɛ ɔ ɑ ə/ <i y u e o a å>
/iː ɪː uː ɛː ɔː ɑː əː/ <ii yy uu ee oo aa åå>
/i˞ ɪ˞ u˞ ɛ˞ ɔ˞ ɑ˞ ə˞/ <į y̨ ų ę ǫ ą ą̊>
/"Long rhoticized vowels"/ <"Take a good long think about what these might look like, because I don't wanna type them">

/ə˞/ is often recognized as [ɹ̩]
I'm thinking the only difference in /ŋ/ and /ŋg/ is that, later on, the latter will nasalize the preceding vowel. Maybe I can use it to springboard in to syllabic nasals: #mb #nd #ng become syllabic nasals + stop. Who knows?! [:D]

VV occurrences (where the vowels are not the same) resolve as VAV, with A being /w r j/, depending on the vowels.
If the first V is /i ɪ/ then A is /j/.
If the first V is /u ɔ/ then A is /w/.
If the first V is /ə ɛ ɑ/ then A is /r/.

Basic Syllable Structure: (C)V(:)(C)(:)

Some sound changes from :con: Proto-Lago:

p t k > b d g / in all positions
b d g > mb nd ng / in all positions

And, because I can't resist, an example sentence:

Mbo dųwe dåm mumbeli ɫellęga bųwel se gad.
DEF.ART man DEF.ART food eat PST REAL PFV
The man had eaten the food.

You'll notice the CųwV- patterns are common. This is going to devolve to CɹV- later [}:D]

The differing definite articles are examples of class difference: "man" is Class II, and "food" is Class III.
Last edited by thaen on 24 Mar 2015 07:05, edited 1 time in total.
:con: Nillahimma
:con: Øð!
:con: Coneylang

I am the Great Rabbit. Fear me, O Crabs!
Spoiler:
ı θ ð ʃ ɲ ŋ ʔ ɛ ə ø ʑ ɕ ʷ ʲ ⁿ
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Re: Lago

Post by shimobaatar »

thaen wrote:it is spoken by lagomorphs and their ilk.
Very cute! [<3]

Do they live in an area with a lot of lakes?
thaen wrote:I must say that I was inspired to make Lago isolating by shimo in the Odd Glossing Game thread.
:!: [:D] [B)]
thaen wrote:/b ᵐb d ⁿd g ᵑg/ <b mb d nd g ng>
/m m̥ n n̥ ŋ ŋ̥/ <m mh n nh ng ngh>
/f v θ ð s z ɬ ɧ/ <f v th dh s z ɫ* sh> *may also be written as <lh> if I'm in a hurry or handwriting it.
/ʍ w r~ɾ l j/ <wh w r l y>

Consonants may be geminate.

/i ɪ u ɛ ɔ ɑ ə/ <i y u e o a å>
/iː ɪː uː ɛː ɔː ɑː əː/ <ii yy uu ee oo aa åå>
/i˞ ɪ˞ u˞ ɛ˞ ɔ˞ ɑ˞ ə˞/ <į y̨ ų ę ǫ ą ą̊>
/"Long rhoticized vowels"/ <"Take a good long think about what these might look like, because I don't wanna type them">
I like the phonology, and the orthography is quite interesting. <å> /ə/ is pretty cool (I'm a fan of both <å> and unorthodox representations of central vowels)!

How do you deal with the ambiguity of <y> representing /j/ and /ɪ/? Are sequences of /jɪ jɪː jːɪ jːɪː/ allowed? If so, how are they romanized? Also, is there ever any orthographic indication of whether <ng> is /(Ṽ)ᵑg/ or /ŋ/, or is the distinction only made in speech? Or would you consider both of these to be non-issues? If so, why?

Hopefully this isn't too dumb of a question… How do you romanize geminate consonants? I'll write my guesses under a spoiler below, but there are some I'm not certain about:
Spoiler:
/bː ᵐbː dː ⁿdː gː ᵑgː/ <bb mbb~mmb dd ndd~nnd gg ngg~nng>
/mː m̥ː nː n̥ː ŋː ŋ̥ː/ <mm mhh~mmh nn nhh~nnh ngg~nng nghh~nngh~nggh>
/fː vː θː ðː sː zː ɬː ɧː/ <ff vv thh~tth dhh~ddh ss zz ɫɫ/lhh~llh shh~ssh>
/ʍː wː rː~ɾː lː jː/ <whh~wwh ww rr ll yy>
Additionally, how do geminate consonants factor into phonotactics? You have basic syllable structure listed as (C)V(:)(C)(:), so I'm guessing geminate consonants can't occur word-initially, but can they occur word-finally? Do they only occur intervocalically, or can they precede another consonant?
thaen wrote:Mbo dųwe dåm mumbeli ɫellęga bųwel se gad.
DEF.ART man DEF.ART food eat PST REAL PFV
The man had eaten the food.
I like the aesthetic of the language, and the looks at allophony, grammar, and diachronics we've gotten so far have been very interesting as well!
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gestaltist
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Re: Lago

Post by gestaltist »

I like the use of ogoneks for rhotacized vowels. „å“ as schwa feels a bit odd, though. My brain processes it immediately as [ɑ] or [ɐ].
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thaen
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Re: Lago

Post by thaen »

Very cute! [<3]

Do they live in an area with a lot of lakes?
Thank you! [:D]

And "lol" to the lake comment. [xP]
How do you deal with the ambiguity of <y> representing /j/ and /ɪ/? Are sequences of /jɪ jɪː jːɪ jːɪː/ allowed? If so, how are they romanized? Also, is there ever any orthographic indication of whether <ng> is /(Ṽ)ᵑg/ or /ŋ/, or is the distinction only made in speech? Or would you consider both of these to be non-issues? If so, why?
I might use a <ÿ> for the vowel, or something of that ilk.
The nasalization will only occur diachronically, so I don't have an answer right now. As for now, there might not even be a difference! [:)]

Sorry for the short replies. I have to run to work. I'll try to post more tonight, maybe.
:con: Nillahimma
:con: Øð!
:con: Coneylang

I am the Great Rabbit. Fear me, O Crabs!
Spoiler:
ı θ ð ʃ ɲ ŋ ʔ ɛ ə ø ʑ ɕ ʷ ʲ ⁿ
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Re: Lago

Post by Birdlang »

I also like the a with ring above for a central vowel. Because I use the a with umlaut for a central rounded vowel.
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Re: Lago

Post by shimobaatar »

thaen wrote:Sorry for the short replies. I have to run to work. I'll try to post more tonight, maybe.
No problem. Take your time. [:)]
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Re: Lago

Post by DesEsseintes »

thaen wrote:VV occurrences (where the vowels are not the same) resolve as VAV, with A being /w r j/, depending on the vowels.
If the first V is /i ɪ/ then A is /j/.
If the first V is /u ɔ/ then A is /w/.
If the first V is /ə ɛ ɑ/ then A is /r/.

Nice touch!

I also like the lack of unvoiced stops in a coneylang (← new favourite word!).

I look forward to seeing what you're up to with noun classes, because I'm considering such beasties for the Híí family. Hey Des, can you never write a comment without mentioning Híí at some point?!
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Re: Lago

Post by Prinsessa »

dum /ɧ/ doesn't exist

It's rather pleasing to read aloud! Prenasalised stops are great. And that intrusive /r/ too!
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Re: Lago

Post by thaen »

Prinsessa wrote:dum /ɧ/ doesn't exist
I'm not sure if you're joking or not...it's allegedly a co-occurring /S/ and /x/
:con: Nillahimma
:con: Øð!
:con: Coneylang

I am the Great Rabbit. Fear me, O Crabs!
Spoiler:
ı θ ð ʃ ɲ ŋ ʔ ɛ ə ø ʑ ɕ ʷ ʲ ⁿ
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Re: Lago

Post by Prinsessa »

thaen wrote:
Prinsessa wrote:dum /ɧ/ doesn't exist
I'm not sure if you're joking or not...it's allegedly a co-occurring /S/ and /x/
That's one of the suggestions, rightfully controversial. I have never heard a Swede pronounce a coärticulated [ʃ] and [x] in my life. Some dialects have a plain [x] tho. More like [ʂ] together with [ʍ] if anything; sounds perfectly natural to me. Something like plain [ʍ] is pretty common. Doesn't need a symbol of its own either way. Use a tie bar to clarify instead. [:P] That symbol needs to die.

It only really makes sense as an abstract symbol specifically for Swedish to denote "here is a sound that varies a lot between dialects", rather than a way to express some specific phoneme.
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thaen
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Re: Lago

Post by thaen »

Prinsessa wrote:
thaen wrote:
Prinsessa wrote:dum /ɧ/ doesn't exist
I'm not sure if you're joking or not...it's allegedly a co-occurring /S/ and /x/
That's one of the suggestions, rightfully controversial. I have never heard a Swede pronounce a coärticulated [ʃ] and [x] in my life. Some dialects have a plain [x] tho. More like [ʂ] together with [ʍ] if anything; sounds perfectly natural to me. Something like plain [ʍ] is pretty common. Doesn't need a symbol of its own either way. Use a tie bar to clarify instead. [:P] That symbol needs to die.

It only really makes sense as an abstract symbol specifically for Swedish to denote "here is a sound that varies a lot between dialects", rather than a way to express some specific phoneme.
Ah, so it's specific to Swedish? Ya, I'll use a tie bar when I get back to my computer.
:con: Nillahimma
:con: Øð!
:con: Coneylang

I am the Great Rabbit. Fear me, O Crabs!
Spoiler:
ı θ ð ʃ ɲ ŋ ʔ ɛ ə ø ʑ ɕ ʷ ʲ ⁿ
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Re: Lago

Post by Prinsessa »

thaen wrote:
Prinsessa wrote:
thaen wrote:
Prinsessa wrote:dum /ɧ/ doesn't exist
I'm not sure if you're joking or not...it's allegedly a co-occurring /S/ and /x/
That's one of the suggestions, rightfully controversial. I have never heard a Swede pronounce a coärticulated [ʃ] and [x] in my life. Some dialects have a plain [x] tho. More like [ʂ] together with [ʍ] if anything; sounds perfectly natural to me. Something like plain [ʍ] is pretty common. Doesn't need a symbol of its own either way. Use a tie bar to clarify instead. [:P] That symbol needs to die.

It only really makes sense as an abstract symbol specifically for Swedish to denote "here is a sound that varies a lot between dialects", rather than a way to express some specific phoneme.
Ah, so it's specific to Swedish? Ya, I'll use a tie bar when I get back to my computer.
I'm pretty sure Swedish is the only natlang for which the symbol is used and apparently some West Germanic dialect. I was directed to this page when trying to go to this symbol on Wikipedia. Read the page above the section I linked and you'll see how debated it really is.
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Re: Lago

Post by Lambuzhao »

Just to give some ideas (as if you don't have enough already):

http://www.justrabbits.com/rabbit-language.html

Just to give some ideas of rabbit emotional states and accompanying noises.

The 'wheeking' and 'futtering' noises sounds suspiciously like Guinea Pig; I have never heard any of my rabbits make that sort of noise.

I cannot wait to see your words for

popcorning/jinking/binking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXpzdUyzIr8

and gwonking (doesn't happen until 1:11, but you'll know it when you see it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F9kn0wyrkk

'Two legger' , the indentured servant of rabbitkind

and the 'doelap' (yes, that's a portmanteau)

http://www.petrabbitworld.com/sitebuild ... Dewlap.jpg

Among other specifically lagomorphic fun!
:mrgreen:


Some of my favorite kinds of bunnies:

Japanese black Amami
http://hakushi.com/animal/12-amaminokur ... G_0699.jpg

Sumatran Stripe
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XFl454dnYlU/T ... minsi..jpg

Enderby Island Blue
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-S6eUY84-I_g/T ... 22%2B2.jpg

When I get rich, I'm making a "Hare-rassic Park" - [;)]
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thaen
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Re: Lago

Post by thaen »

Class I

Also known as, The Introduction to Lago's Insane Agreement Paradigms!

In Lago, there are (so far), five classes. We shall look at the first class here.

Class I: Rabbits

The first class consists of rabbits. That's it. But, acceptance and reverence can be conveyed by using the class-specific pronouns to an entity not included in the class. For example, Shysh, dą dųwe, lhyn rengå, meaning You, O man, are fair, with the pronoun, vocative particle, and adjective all being of the first class, while "man" belongs to the second class. I have no records of the Class I Honorifics being used with a non-rabbit - not even concerning their gods.

Pronouns, Standard and Honorific

Code: Select all

  Standard     Honorific
1  uve          mbush
2  shysh        nghaale
3  wedh         yol
Plurality Particles, Standard and Honorific

Code: Select all

Standard:  amb
Honorific: elve
Gender Particles, Standard and Honorific

Code: Select all

          Masc.    Fem.    Neut.
Standard  raz      vaal    (not marked)
Honorific mbåzh     ndam    (m)bele
I'm not sure whether it should be mbele or bele...any thoughts?

Case Particles, Standard and Honorific

Old Lago has eleven cases: Nominative, Accusative, Dative, Ablative, Genitive, Vocative, Locative, Instrumental, Abessive, Adessive, and Illative.

Code: Select all

     Standard      Honorific
NOM  (Not marked)  vedh
ACC  ęve           essed
DAT  dų            olog
ABL  lebå          iimb
GEN  nge           gadol
VOC  dą            węl
LOC  nuth          elles
INST sym           mball
ABE  mazal         shod
ADE  ooveg         ngą
ILL  ndel          fessey
A few examples before bed:

Mbo shelenthå raz fylleg alle shą̊.
DEF rabbit MASC jink PST PFV
The rabbit had jinked.

Mbo shelenthå vaal fylleg alle shą̊ ey?
DEF rabbit FEM jink PST PFV Q
Had the rabbit jinked?

Mbo shelenthå ndam elve vedh raz ende fylleg alle.
DEF rabbit FEM.HON PL.HON NOM.HON return jink PST
The mothers jinked repeated.

Note that the feminine honorific particle translates into "mother" rather than "honorable female rabbit"; breeding dams are held in high regard, and this particle seems almost derivational because of it. You'll never see a non-mother referred to in this manner; at least in good manners.

==

As for geminate consonants: stops may not be geminated. Also, there are no records of voiceless consonantes being geminated. <th> and <dh> become <tth ddh> respectively. Also, when written <lh>, it becomes <llh>. Oh, and <w> is <ww>.
Lambu wrote:When I get rich, I'm making a "Hare-rassic Park"
This would much please the Great Rabbit...Please make this happen. [:D]

I hope that fylleg jink is suitable. [:$] I went through different words for it, and decided on this one. I may have different words for it altogether, like rabbit. If Eskimos have 30 different words for snow*, lagomorphs have probably twice as many for rabbit.

*I know that this isn't true [:)]
:con: Nillahimma
:con: Øð!
:con: Coneylang

I am the Great Rabbit. Fear me, O Crabs!
Spoiler:
ı θ ð ʃ ɲ ŋ ʔ ɛ ə ø ʑ ɕ ʷ ʲ ⁿ
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Re: Lago

Post by shimobaatar »

thaen wrote:I'm not sure whether it should be mbele or bele...any thoughts?
I'd go with mbele, but that's just me.
thaen wrote:I may have different words for it altogether, like rabbit. If Eskimos have 30 different words for snow*, lagomorphs have probably twice as many for rabbit.
Wouldn't that be like people having 60-some words for "human"?

Or would you consider things like kinship terms and words for occupations to be "words for (kinds of) rabbits/humans"? If you're looking at it that way, then it makes perfect sense to me.
thaen wrote:lagomorphs
Sorry if this has been answered before, but I've been wondering something: are the speakers of this language only rabbits, or do hares and pikas speak it too?
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Re: Lago

Post by kanejam »

shimobaatar wrote:pikas
[+1]

I don't have much to add other than I like mbele as well. I'm a fan of the prenasalised stops in general actually. How do the class system and gender system interact? They are usually the same thing. Is there no gender distinction in independent pronouns?
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Re: Lago

Post by thaen »

Probably will have different dialects for pikas and other lagomorph races, but, yes, they'll speak some sort of Lago.

Mbele it is then! :mrgreen:

And, since rabbit breeding can be a crazy thing (like how one can breed offspring with parents1), I may have some wacky kinship terms, depending on how Lago society views incest.
In any case, since rabbits reproduce in litters, there will probably be terms for offspring of one's first litter, second, nth...not sure how far I'll go.

1 I don't believe I've ever actually done this, but IIRC, it's a viable option when one breeds rabbits. We shall have to see how this plays into their culture, as I'm not sure if such a phenomenon occurs in nature (on Earth).
:con: Nillahimma
:con: Øð!
:con: Coneylang

I am the Great Rabbit. Fear me, O Crabs!
Spoiler:
ı θ ð ʃ ɲ ŋ ʔ ɛ ə ø ʑ ɕ ʷ ʲ ⁿ
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Re: Lago

Post by thaen »

Class II: Other Sentients

The second grammatical class in Lago concerns other sentient beings, including humans, gods/spirits, other lagomorphs (this is in flux; it depends on how society is structured, and in some places, this class may be more fluid, sometimes allowing pikas and the like, and in other places they may be included in Class I).

Pronouns, Standard and Honorific

Code: Select all

   Standard     Honorific
1  luudo        mbuwa
2  gell         az
3  sho          mav
Plurality Particles, Standard and Honorific

Code: Select all

Standard:  gev
Honorific: el
Gender Particles, Standard and Honorific

Code: Select all

          Masc.    Fem.    Neut.
Standard  ba       laff    fedh
Honorific feyam    oleg    mez
Case Particles, Standard and Honorific

Code: Select all

     Standard      Honorific
NOM  (Not marked)  gam
ACC  ęve           essed
DAT  e             lo
ABL  ra            dǫ
GEN  an            lęge
VOC  wo            zu
LOC  iss           er
INST lud           me
ABE  esh           yad
ADE  fus           um
ILL  ang           ęles
A few examples before bed:

Mbo dųwe laff gev mbo dųwe ba e shegarru thą̊ mbaz.
DEF human FEM PL DEF human MASC ACC attack PST PFV
The women attacked the man.

Mbo dųwe ba e mbo dųwe laff gev shegarru thą̊ mbaz.
DEF human MASC ACC DEF human FEM PL attack PST PFV
The man was attacked by the women.

Here we see the importance of word order in Old Lago: standard SOV yields active voice, whilst OSV yields the passive. Now look at how SVO works:

Zu lhallamaa feyam gam lannas zey uve amb ęve!
VOC god MASC.HON PL.HON save now 1 PL ACC
Oh, God, save us now!

The colors inspired by the Great Kou
:con: Nillahimma
:con: Øð!
:con: Coneylang

I am the Great Rabbit. Fear me, O Crabs!
Spoiler:
ı θ ð ʃ ɲ ŋ ʔ ɛ ə ø ʑ ɕ ʷ ʲ ⁿ
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Re: Lago

Post by thaen »

"It's got...FANGS!!
A.K.A., a look into the really horrible life inside one of the Lago-speaking cultures.


Alrighty, I'm not sure what this culture is called, so we'll call it Harsh.
All things in bold may change.
I have to admit that I was inspired by Imralu's thread. [:)]

Harsh is made up of many individual "nests," which are basically families comprised of a Warrior-Buck, or mbaryng, his Queens (his does with whom he breeds), or shylambeth, his offspring, or aboluth, which can more probably be translated more accurately as a "brood," and his squires, slaves, and concubines.

Here is the gist of how the circle of life goes in a nest:

1) The mbaryng takes one or two days to mate with each of his shylambeths, usually once or twice each, just in case. This ceremony (since they copulate at other times without the intent to reproduce, this instance is done ceremoniously) is called mbo fammyl dy lhi aboluth elve, or "The making of the honorable broods."

2) When the gestation period is up, the shylambeths should give birth in the same time frame: one week from the first birth to the last. They are named in this fashion: mbo mba aboluth ("The first brood"), mbo go aboluth ("The second brood"), and so on. Any broods born after the one week are considered aboluth amb ganymbari, or "outcast broods." More on these later.

3) These broods are raised communally, and frolic and learn together in the bounds of the Nest and its burrows and such (each shylambeth has a burrow, the mbaryng has a burrow, the squires have a burrow, and the concubines have a burrow).

4) Upon reaching sexual maturity, the broods are separated from each other for their birth week. On the day after the week, or ymbųwey lhi aboluth, "Day of the Brood," they are taken to an area away from the nest and told that the victorious brood will become mbo aboluth ngååles, or "the dominant brood," and the survivors will become mbo aboluth amb ngenge, or "the weak broods."
This is still in flux in that they may be told of this from birth, or at least when they begin the week of separation, that way they are ready for it, at least mentally.

5) Once all the members of all the broods except for at least some of the members of one brood have been either incapacitated or killed, the fight is over. Mbo aboluth ngååles is taken to celebrate with feasting and a night of debauchery with the concubines, who are given to service them until they leave the nest. Mbo aboluth amb ngenge, however are taken to have their wounds tended, then are explained their duties and rights: they are to serve the dominant brood members for the rest of their life. Males, and females demonstrating certain prowess, will be squires to certain members of the dominant brood, assisting them in fighting. The females who cannot fight or are not interested in being a squire will be assistants to the shylambeths of the dominant brood when they leave the nest.

6) Males of the dominant brood will eventually leave the nest, taking with them their squires and slaves, to find other nests, from whom they may gain one or more shylambeths from the dominant brood of that nest by trade, force, or pledging to aid the mbaryng of the nest in his fighting. Once the male is satisfied with the number of queens he has acquired, he will find a spot and build a nest, have his first round of broods, and become a full-fledged mbarygn.
Alternately, females of the dominant group may be traded off to a dominant male seeking queens, or, if they demonstrate certain prowess in combat, may assist their father in is fighting until they die, or settle for being a queen. (not sure about this, but they may become a special type of queen who stays with their father's nest and serves as a concubine of higher quality to him; esp. if they are infertile).

And so the cycle continues...

Aboluth amb ganymbari: the Outcast Broods, born outside of the week preordained by mbo fammyl dy i aboluth elve, are considered less than even the Weak Broods, and function as the slaves and concubines of the nest. They will never be able to rise above their status, and will never reproduce. The mercy of the mbaryng determines whether the males will be exiled or kept as slaves. The only known Outcast to be elevated above his birth status is Thewyn, the Great Rabbit.

Does this sound like a plausible system? Are there any glaring inconsistencies? Please, ask questions and I'll clarify. [:)]
:con: Nillahimma
:con: Øð!
:con: Coneylang

I am the Great Rabbit. Fear me, O Crabs!
Spoiler:
ı θ ð ʃ ɲ ŋ ʔ ɛ ə ø ʑ ɕ ʷ ʲ ⁿ
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