Proto-Skawlas

[sangi39]

Mother of tables

Now watch me completely fail to discern the tone of that post because I am awesome!

[thaen]

Mother of tables

Now watch me completely fail to discern the tone of that post because I am awesome!

It Just seemed like the alignment was off, but I could have missed the structuring of it

[sangi39]

Mother of tables

Now watch me completely fail to discern the tone of that post because I am awesome!

It Just seemed like the alignment was off, but I could have missed the structuring of it

Oh, right, yeah, it does look a bit weird in parts. I tried to line up each form so that the start of the stem, <h>, was always in the same place, which did force the negative forms a little to the left.

It was a fairly rough table, kind of thrown together. I'll likely neaten it up with some more boundaries at some point, but I thought I;d get the rough one on here before life starts getting busy again

[thaen]

Mother of tables

Now watch me completely fail to discern the tone of that post because I am awesome!

It Just seemed like the alignment was off, but I could have missed the structuring of it

Oh, right, yeah, it does look a bit weird in parts. I tried to line up each form so that the start of the stem, <h>, was always in the same place, which did force the negative forms a little to the left.

It was a fairly rough table, kind of thrown together. I'll likely neaten it up with some more boundaries at some point, but I thought I;d get the rough one on here before life starts getting busy again

Ahh, that makes more sense now

[sangi39]

So that's the conjugation table for *hawjan- tidied up. I've tried to keep the alignment of roots the same, but it's a bit more spread out and divided so that you should be able to see more clearly what each form actually means.

[zyma]

So that's the conjugation table for *hawjan- tidied up. I've tried to keep the alignment of roots the same, but it's a bit more spread out and divided so that you should be able to see more clearly what each form actually means.

The table looks quite nice to me! It's clear you put a lot of work into both formatting it and developing the actual conjugation forms displayed.

[sangi39]

So that's the conjugation table for *hawjan- tidied up. I've tried to keep the alignment of roots the same, but it's a bit more spread out and divided so that you should be able to see more clearly what each form actually means.

The table looks quite nice to me! It's clear you put a lot of work into both formatting it and developing the actual conjugation forms displayed.

Thanks I've been looking at it, too, and I think a couple of forms might actually be able to demonstrate how each branch developed after Proto-Skawlas separated. hịwëntaḍ (you all moved away [from something]) and the corresponding negative rëhịwëntaḍ (you all didn't moved away [from something]) might be a good place to start:

Palatal Eastern: hʲiven'tsʰat ~ ṛhʲiven'tsʰat
Non-Palatal Eastern: hivɨn'tsʰat ~ ṛhivɨn'tsʰat
Western: hʲiwan'tʰaʈ ~ ṛhʲiwan'tʰaʈ
Northern: iwa:'tʰa˞t ~ rahiwa:'tʰa˞t

This demonstration, however, fails to illustrate the shift of stress and the development of voiced plosives which could occur in Northern Skawlas, as well as to the full extent of palatalisation in Palatal Eastern.

[zyma]

I've been looking at it, too, and I think a couple of forms might actually be able to demonstrate how each branch developed after Proto-Skawlas separated. hịwëntaḍ (you all moved away [from something]) and the corresponding negative rëhịwëntaḍ (you all didn't moved away [from something]) might be a good place to start:

Palatal Eastern: hʲiven'tsʰat ~ ṛhʲiven'tsʰat
Non-Palatal Eastern: hivɨn'tsʰat ~ ṛhivɨn'tsʰat
Western: hʲiwan'tʰaʈ ~ ṛhʲiwan'tʰaʈ
Northern: iwa:'tʰaʈ ~ rahiwa:'tʰaʈ

Looking good!

This demonstration, however, fails to illustrate the shift of stress and the development of voiced plosives which could occur in Northern Skawlas, as well as to the full extent of palatalisation in Palatal Eastern.

I've faced similar problems in the past; they can be a bit frustrating, especially when you really want to demonstrate certain changes all in one go. If that's what you're aiming for, I wish you luck finding "perfect" examples.

[sangi39]

I've been looking at it, too, and I think a couple of forms might actually be able to demonstrate how each branch developed after Proto-Skawlas separated. hịwëntaḍ (you all moved away [from something]) and the corresponding negative rëhịwëntaḍ (you all didn't moved away [from something]) might be a good place to start:

Palatal Eastern: hʲiven'tsʰat ~ ṛhʲiven'tsʰat
Non-Palatal Eastern: hivɨn'tsʰat ~ ṛhivɨn'tsʰat
Western: hʲiwan'tʰaʈ ~ ṛhʲiwan'tʰaʈ
Northern: iwa:'tʰaʈ ~ rahiwa:'tʰaʈ

Looking good!

Thanks Eventually I might get round to doing this for whole conjugations, with a handful of verbs, and then hopefully see if any patterns emerge in the earliest stages of the branches.

This demonstration, however, fails to illustrate the shift of stress and the development of voiced plosives which could occur in Northern Skawlas, as well as to the full extent of palatalisation in Palatal Eastern.

I've faced similar problems in the past; they can be a bit frustrating, especially when you really want to demonstrate certain changes all in one go. If that's what you're aiming for, I wish you luck finding "perfect" examples.

Something like *ḍíngi- (to run through something [applying to human beings]) might work quite well (resulting forms would show the extent of palatalisation in each branch, the development of voiced plosives in Northern Skawlas and might show stress shifts in Northern Skawlas too.

[sangi39]

So let's look at the conjugation of *ḍíngi- (to run through something [applying to human beings]):

Code: Select all

+------------------------------------------------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
|                               DIR                          |                     INV                           |
+------+---------------------+--------------+----------------+-----------------+----------------+----------------+
|      |          SING       |  DUAL        |     PLUR       |    SING         |   DUAL         |   PLUR         |
+------+-----+---------------+--------------+----------------+-----------------+----------------+----------------+
|      |     |               |              |                |                 |                |                |
|      | 1st |    ḍingëj     |   ḍingëge    |     ḍingon     |    ḍingëmej     |   ḍingëmeg     |   ḍingëmen     |
|      | NEG |  rëḍingëj     | rëḍingëge    |   rëḍingon     |  rëḍingohị      | rëḍingohgë     | rëḍingohṇ      | 
| PRES |     |               |              |                |                 |                |                |
|      | 2nd |    ḍingësë    |     -----    |     ḍengaḍ     |    ḍingëmes     |     -----      |   ḍṇgemaḍ      |
|      | NEG |  rëḍingësë    |     -----    |   rëḍengaḍ     |  rëḍingohsë     |     -----      | rëḍṇgehaḍ      |
|      |     |               |              |                |                 |                |                |
|      | 3rd |    ḍenga      |     -----    |     ḍengëpi    |    ḍṇgema       |      -----     |   ḍṇgempi      |
|      | NEG |  rëḍenga      |     -----    |   rëḍengëpi    |  rëḍṇgeha       |     -----      | rëḍṇgehpi      |
|      |     |               |              |                |                 |                |                |
|------+-----+---------------+--------------+----------------+-----------------+----------------+----------------+   
|      |     |               |              |                |                 |                |                |
|      | 1st |    ḍingëtoj   |   ḍingëtog   |     ḍingëton   |    ḍingëtomëj   |   ḍingëtomgë   |   ḍingëtomon   |
|      | NEG |  rëḍingëtoj   | rëḍingëtog   |   rëḍingëton   |  rëḍingëtohëj   | rëḍingëtohgë   | rëḍingëtohon   |
| PST  |     |               |              |                |                 |                |                |
|      | 2nd |    ḍingëtos   |     -----    |     ḍṇgetaḍ    |    ḍingëtomso   |     -----      |   ḍengëtomaḍ   |
|      | NEG |  rëḍingëtos   |     -----    |   rëḍṇgetaḍ    |  rëḍingëtohso   |     -----      | rëḍengëtohaḍ   |
|      |     |               |              |                |                 |                |                |
|      | 3rd |    ḍṇgeta     |     -----    |     ḍṇgetëpi   |    ḍengëtoma    |     -----      |   ḍengëtompi   |
|      | NEG |  rëḍṇgeta     |     -----    |   rëḍṇgetëpi   |  rëḍengëtoha    |     -----      | rëḍengëtohpi   |
|      |     |               |              |                |                 |                |                |
|------+-----+---------------+--------------+----------------+-----------------+----------------+----------------+
|      |     |               |              |                |                 |                |                |
|      | 1st |    ḍengilị    |   ḍengilgë   |     ḍengilṇ    |    ḍengilmëj    |   ḍengilmëge   |   ḍengilmon    |
|      | NEG |  rëḍengilị    | rëḍengilgë   |   rëḍengilṇ    |  rëḍengilhëj    | rëḍengilạge    | rëḍengilhon    |
| FUT  |     |               |              |                |                 |                |                |
|      | 2nd |    ḍengilsë   |     -----    |     ḍṇgelaḍ    |    ḍengilmëso   |     -----      |   ḍengelmaḍ    |
|      | NEG |  rëḍengilsë   |     -----    |   rëḍṇgelaḍ    |  rëḍengilạso    |     -----      | rëḍengelhaḍ    |
|      |     |               |              |                |                 |                |                |
|      | 3rd |    ḍṇgela     |     -----    |     ḍṇgelpi    |    ḍengelma     |     -----      |   ḍengelmëpi   |
|      | NEG |  rëḍṇgela     |     -----    |   rëḍṇgelpi    |  rëḍengelha     |     -----      | rëḍengelạpi    |
|      |     |               |              |                |                 |                |                |
|------+-----+---------------+--------------+----------------+-----------------+----------------+----------------+

The main difference this has to the conjugation of *hajwán- (to move away from something or somewhere) can be seen in any form where the stem vowel is the only stressed vowel in the underlying form of the conjugated form which caused stress throughout the word to appear on different syllable. Every other form where stress occurs after the root should be roughly the same, with the same grade appearing in the same syllable.

Take the (direct) first person singular form in the present tense. For one verb we have hịwanị and for the other we have ḍingëj. In the latter the suffix is weakly stressed while in the former it is completely unstressed.

On the other hand, we find examples like the entire future tense where each grade of each syllable is identical for both verbs, as well as any 3S, 2P and 3P form in the present or past.

These verbs, as a result, have different paradigms in the 1S, 2S, 1D and 1P forms of the present and past tenses.

[sangi39]

So, the best of these forms I could see to exemplify the varying sound changes leading to the four main branching descendants was rëḍengelma, roughly meaning "he will not be running through something" (where the "something" is more animate than "he". Unlikely, but it's at least a valid word form):

Palatal Eastern: ṛtʲenkʲel'ma
Non-Palatal Eastern: ṛtenkel'ma
Western: ṛʈenkʲel'ma
Northern: ra˞te:'gel.ma

---

One thing I did notice, though, was that some forms which should be similar across both verbs, have ended up slightly different, especially considering the negative and positive forms of inverse verbs, so I may have to go back and look at that, to see whether I made a mistake or to see whether that's actually supposed to happen

[zyma]

As usual, the forms displayed in the table and those listed for the daughterlangs look great.

[sangi39]

As usual, the forms displayed in the table and those listed for the daughterlangs look great.

Thanks.

One thing I did notice was the I forgot to show retroflex codas causing preceding vowels to become r-coloured in Northern Skawlas, so I've updated those entries.

[sangi39]

So, I thought I'd look back at the vowels in Late Proto-Skawlas and where they appear in relation to stress and maybe come up with a couple of ideas for how this vowels change:

Strongly stressed: [i i:* u u:* a a:*] *in originally open syllables and from Vh_
Weakly stressed: [e e:* o o:* ə ə:*] *from Vh_
Unstressed : [i u a ə ṃ ṇ ṛ ḷ]

The history of the schwa is more or less taken care or, although I might throw in some stress related changes there to mix is up a bit, although I might say that unstressed [ə] merges straight into [a]. For Northern Skawlas this is fairly boring, but it makes schwa a lot more varied in, say, Palatalising Eastern Skawlas where it merges into [e] and [i:] in weakly stressed syllables.

What I want to happen is for this situation to be largely maintained until the development of the four main descendants, after which the vowels begin to change in each branch. In Palatalising Eastern Skawlas, for example, high long vowels would become diphthongs while non-high long vowels would rise ([e: o: a:] > [i: u: ə:] for example) and short mid-vowels would become [a] with all unstressed vowels and syllabic [m n] likewise merging into [a] (this is where PES starts looking a bit Sanskrit-esque).

In Non-Palatalising Eastern Skawlas (NES) vowel changes were first affected by changes in quality in a similar manner to Vulgar Latin. In the case of NES, the change was [i i: u u: a a: e e: o o:] > [ɪ i: ʊ u: ɐ ɛ e: ɔ o:].

Western Skawlas (WS) largely maintained the original vowel system, although unstressed were lowered to [e o] with weakly stressed short [e o] merging into [a].

Northern Skawlas (NS) was somewhat more conservative in its treatment of vowels at this stage, but the shift of retroflex consonants to alveolar ones caused preceding vowels to become rhoticised while syllable-final nasals disappeared, causing the preceding vowel to first nasalise, with nasalised [e e: o o:] becoming nasalised [a i: a u:] with all nasalised vowels becoming long. This occurred after a shift in stress from final to penultimate position in words where the latter was heavier than the former. After this stress shift (and after vowel lengthening by nasalisation), all non-strongly stressed long vowels became short, meaning that vowel length in NS was only phonemic on stressed syllables.



I'll try to sort this out into a table of some kind, making the correspondences a little easier to see.

[sangi39]

Vowel correspondences between Late Proto-Skawlas and the later stages of the four earliest daughter languages:

Code: Select all

 LPS  >    PES    :   NES   :   WS     :   NS     (VN)   (VR)
        
[ˈi ]  >  [ˈʲi ]  :  [ˈɪ ]  :  [ˈʲi ]  :  [ˈi ] ~ [i:] ~ [ə ]
[ˈi:]  >  [ˈʲəi̯]  :  [ˈi:]  :  [ˈʲi:]  :  [ˈi:] ~ [i:] ~ [ə:]
[ˈu ]  >  [ˈ u ]  :  [ˈʊ ]  :  [ˈ u ]  :  [ˈu ] ~ [u:] ~ [ə ]
[ˈu:]  >  [ˈ əu̯]  :  [ˈu:]  :  [ˈ u:]  :  [ˈu:] ~ [u:] ~ [ə:]
[ˈa ]  >  [ˈ ɐ ]  :  [ˈɐ ]  :  [ˈ a ]  :  [ˈa ] ~ [a:] ~ [a ]
[ˈa:]  >  [ˈ əɑ̯]  :  [ˈa:]  :  [ˈ a:]  :  [ˈa:] ~ [a:] ~ [a:]
[ˌe ]  >  [ˌʲa ]  :  [ˌɛ ]  :  [ˌʲa ]  :  [ˌe ] ~ [a:] ~ [a ]
[ˌe:]  >  [ˌʲai̯]  :  [ˌe:]  :  [ˌʲe:]  :  [ˌe:] ~ [i:] ~ [ə:]
[ˌo ]  >  [ˌ a ]  :  [ˌɔ ]  :  [ˌ a ]  :  [ˌo ] ~ [a:] ~ [a ]
[ˌo:]  >  [ˌ au̯]  :  [ˌo:]  :  [ˌ o:]  :  [ˌo:] ~ [u:] ~ [ə:]
[ˌə ]  >  [ˌ a ]  :  [ˌɪ̈ ]  :  [ˌ a ]  :  [ˌa ] ~ [a:] ~ [a ]
[ˌə:]  >  [ˌ əi̯]  :  [ˌɨ:]  :  [ˌ e:]  :  [ˌa:] ~ [a:] ~ [a:]
[ i ]  >  [ ʲa ]  :  [ ɪ ]  :  [ ʲe ]  :  [ i ] ~ [i:] ~ [ə ]
[ u ]  >  [  a ]  :  [ ʊ ]  :  [  o ]  :  [ u ] ~ [u:] ~ [ə ]
[ a ]  >  [  a ]  :  [ ɐ ]  :  [  a ]  :  [ a ] ~ [a:] ~ [a ]
[ ə ]  >  [  a ]  :  [ ɐ ]  :  [  a ]  :  [ a ] ~ [a:] ~ [a ]
[ṃ/ṇ]  >  [  a ]  :  [ aN]  :  [  aN]  :  [ a ]

The changes affecting vowels in NS do not show the shortening of vowels after stress has shifted, but does show how the vowels were affected by a following nasal consonant (in closed syllables) and by a following LPS retroflex consonant.

The vast majority of differences still occur in relation to the old LPS schwa in strongly and weakly stressed syllables, but a greater degree of difference has also begun to emerge as the result of sound changes affecting the mid-vowels, especially the short ones.

Palatalisation in Early PES and the limited palatalisation in Early WS should now also be phonemic.

[zyma]

The table is very helpful for showing the variety of changes all at once. I'm particularly fond of some of the changes in Palatalising Eastern Skawlas, such as [ˈi:] > [ˈʲəj], [ˌe:] > [ˌʲaj], [ i ] > [ ʲa ], etc., as well as the fact that Northern Skawlas only has phonemic vowel length on stressed syllables.

[loglorn]

All rather awesome.

And this: /hi'rus/ (woods) > /hi.hi'rus/ (forest) ['hrus] > [heh'rus] is the most beautiful inflection i've ever seen.

[sangi39]

The table is very helpful for showing the variety of changes all at once. I'm particularly fond of some of the changes in Palatalising Eastern Skawlas, such as [ˈi:] > [ˈʲəj], [ˌe:] > [ˌʲaj], [ i ] > [ ʲa ], etc., as well as the fact that Northern Skawlas only has phonemic vowel length on stressed syllables.

Awesome I was really hoping it would make things clearer. I've changed some of the correspondences for PES, but must of that's just presentation.

All rather awesome.

And this: /hi'rus/ (woods) > /hi.hi'rus/ (forest) ['hrus] > [heh'rus] is the most beautiful inflection i've ever seen.

Thanks I was pretty happy with the way some of the inflections turned out too

And because you've brought it up, let's see what this looks like in the later stages of the four early daughter languages:

PS: ['hrus] ~ [her'srus] ~ [heh'rus] ~ [hə.her'srus]
LPES: ['hrus] ~ [hʲar'srus] ~ [hʲai̯'rus] ~ [a.hʲar'srus]
LNES: ['hrʊs] ~ [hɛr'srʊs] ~ [he:'rʊs] ~ [ɐ.hɛr'srʊs]
LWS: ['hrus] ~ [hʲar.srus] ~ [hʲe:'rus] ~ [a.hʲar.srus]
LNS: ['rus] ~ [er'srus] ~ [e'rus] ~ [her'srus]

EDIT: Updated the above to include the singular, plural, augmentative and augmentative plural. What I found interesting was how indistinct the augmentative plural is in comparison to the other three forms, effectively being an extended version of the plural form.

[sangi39]

So, since I said I post consonant correspondences too:

Code: Select all

LPS  >  PES    :  NES  :  WS   :  NS
                             
[pʰ] > [ pʰ ]  : [ pʰ] : [pʰ]  : [pʰ]
     > [ pʰʲ]¹ :       :       : 
[tʰ] > [ts̻ʰ ]  : [ts̻ʰ] : [tʰ]  : [tʰ]
     > [ts̻ʰʲ]¹ :       :       : 
[ʈʰ] > [ t̺ʰ ]  : [ t̺ʰ] : [ʈʰ]  : [tʰ]
     > [ t̺ʰʲ]¹ :       :       : 
[kʰ] > [ kʰ ]  : [ kʰ] : [kʰ]  : [kʰ]
     > [ kʰʲ]¹ :       : [cʰ]¹ : 
[p ] > [ p  ]  : [ p ] : [p ]  : [p ]
     > [ pʲ ]¹ :       :       : [b ]²
[t ] > [ ts̻ ]  : [ ts̻] : [t ]  : [t ]
     > [ ts̻ʲ]¹ :       :       : [d ]²
[ʈ ] > [ t̺  ]  : [ t̺ ] : [ʈ ]  : [t ]
     > [ t̺ʲ ]¹ :       :       : [d ]²
[k ] > [ k  ]  : [ k ] : [k ]  : [k ]
     > [ kʲ ]¹ :       : [c ]¹ : [g ]²
[ʔ ] > [ ʔ  ]  : [ ʔ ] : [ʔ ]  : [ʔ ]
     > [ ʔʲ ]¹ :       :       : 
[s ] > [ s̻  ]  : [ s̻ ] : [s ]  : [s ]
     > [ s̻ʲ ]¹ :       :       : [z ]²
[ʂ ] > [ s̺  ]  : [ s̺ ] : [ʂ ]  : [s ]
     > [ s̺ʲ ]¹ :       :       : [z ]²
[h ] > [ h  ]  : [ h ] : [h ]  : [h ]
     > [ hʲ ]¹ :       : [ç ]¹ : [ɦ ]²
[m ] > [ m  ]  : [ m ] : [m ]  : [m ]
     > [ mʲ ]¹ :       :       : [_ ]³
[n ] > [ n  ]  : [ n ] : [n ]  : [n ]
     > [ nʲ ]¹ :       :       : [_ ]³
[r ] > [ r  ]  : [ r ] : [r ]  : [r ]
     > [ rʲ ]¹ :       :       : 
[l ] > [ l  ]  : [ l ] : [l ]  : [l ]
     > [ lʲ ]¹ :       :       : 
[w ] > [ w  ]  : [ w ] : [w ]  : [w ]
     > [ wʲ ]¹ :       :       : 
[j ] > [ j  ]  : [ j ] : [j ]  : [j ]
     > [ ʝ  ]¹ :       :       : 

[ṃ ] > [ a  ]  : [ ɪ̈m] : [am]  : [a ]
[ṇ ] > [ a  ]  : [ ɪ̈n] : [an]  : [a ]
[ṛ ] > [ ar ]  : [ ɪ̈r] : [ar]  : [ar]
[ḷ ] > [ al ]  : [ ɪ̈l] : [al]  : [al]

¹ After LPS [i e i: e:]
² After LPS coda nasals
³ In LPS coda position

[zyma]

Yay! What jumped out at me immediately were the awesome-looking paths taken by the syllabic sonorants in all four branches, and the fact that some consonants are voiced after nasals in the northern branch.