Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
- Creyeditor
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
That's actually pretty neat.
Creyeditor
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"Thoughts are free."
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Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
ThanksCreyeditor wrote:That's actually pretty neat.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
I'm liking those affirmative and negative responses! We don't see those all that often! I especially like that Sinitic loan for the formal "not have".
I like how instead of either going for a single particle for all cases, or with the verb-repetition strategy for all of them, you have a nice middle path with repetition permissible for a few common verbs. Is this a common pattern in Chamic or Southeast Asia more generally?
I like how instead of either going for a single particle for all cases, or with the verb-repetition strategy for all of them, you have a nice middle path with repetition permissible for a few common verbs. Is this a common pattern in Chamic or Southeast Asia more generally?
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Thanks. I'm quite a fan of that borrowing myselfFrislander wrote:I'm liking those affirmative and negative responses! We don't see those all that often! I especially like that Sinitic loan for the formal "not have".
From my understanding that's typically how it's done in Mandarin although unlike in Ởnh·Vú it can be done with any verb even if it isn't always done soFrislander wrote:I like how instead of either going for a single particle for all cases, or with the verb-repetition strategy for all of them, you have a nice middle path with repetition permissible for a few common verbs. Is this a common pattern in Chamic or Southeast Asia more generally?
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
I don't think I have any grammatical or syntactical topics left so if you guys have any suggestions for posts I'm all ears
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
There's the sequential 'and'-stuff. You could embedd this in a general overview of clausal connectives.
Have we already heard anything about subordination? I would be interested.
Also you mentioned there is some construction where a verbs takes two objects, that are connected by possession. I would like to see concrete examples.
Have we already heard anything about subordination? I would be interested.
Also you mentioned there is some construction where a verbs takes two objects, that are connected by possession. I would like to see concrete examples.
Spoiler:
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
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Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Thanks for reminding me of this. I'll cover clauses and conjunctions soonCreyeditor wrote:There's the sequential 'and'-stuff. You could embedd this in a general overview of clausal connectives.
Have we already heard anything about subordination? I would be interested.
Sorry if I made it seem like it's a unique grammar point. What I was trying to say is that from what I can see verbs that take 2 objects seem to have one that is possessed by another. For example the verb could take both John and arm as objects. Rather than do this, Ởnh·Vú simply would use one object with something along the lines of john's arm.Creyeditor wrote:Also you mentioned there is some construction where a verbs takes two objects, that are connected by possession. I would like to see concrete examples.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Maybe you could expand this constuction two other ditransitive constructions. It would be cool, if you could say 'I brought [you-DAT] [a present]' and 'I brought [your present].' both exist and these two would alternate according to some semantic or syntactic conditionAll4Ɇn wrote:Creyeditor wrote:Sorry if I made it seem like it's a unique grammar point. What I was trying to say is that from what I can see verbs that take 2 objects seem to have one that is possessed by another. For example the verb could take both John and arm as objects. Rather than do this, Ởnh·Vú simply would use one object with something along the lines of john's arm.Creyeditor wrote:Also you mentioned there is some construction where a verbs takes two objects, that are connected by possession. I would like to see concrete examples.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
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Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Well this construction already exists. Verbs can take both indirect and direct objects. They can't however take more than one indirect or direct without a preposition like they can in MandarinCreyeditor wrote:Maybe you could expand this constuction two other ditransitive constructions. It would be cool, if you could say 'I brought [you-DAT] [a present]'
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Sorry for bringing this up again. I guess I am just a bit too excited about this construtionCreyeditor wrote:Maybe you could expand this constuction two other ditransitive constructions. It would be cool, if you could say 'I brought [you-DAT] [a present]' and 'I brought [your present].' both exist and these two would alternate according to some semantic or syntactic conditionAll4Ɇn wrote:Creyeditor wrote:Sorry if I made it seem like it's a unique grammar point. What I was trying to say is that from what I can see verbs that take 2 objects seem to have one that is possessed by another. For example the verb could take both John and arm as objects. Rather than do this, Ởnh·Vú simply would use one object with something along the lines of john's arm.Creyeditor wrote:Also you mentioned there is some construction where a verbs takes two objects, that are connected by possession. I would like to see concrete examples.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Well both very much are possibleCreyeditor wrote:Sorry for bringing this up again. I guess I am just a bit too excited about this constrution
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Clausal Conjunctions
There are 2 kinds of clausal conjunctions: those that behave like relative clause nouns and those that don’t. There is no equivalent for the conjunction “that” and where it would be used the two sentences are simply joined together.
Those similar to relative clauses
𣅶 (Đrã)- When (present/future/recent past)
時 (Sưy)- When (distant past)
兜 (Lơnh)- Where
物 (Mut)- What/which
𠊛 (Ởnh)- Who
咦牢 (Ha·Khet)- Why
芇 (Ỹ)- How/the way
𠓀𢗼 (Đỉ·Lo)- Before
耒 (Húy)- After
𠓀捉 (Đỉ·Áo)- Until
Sample sentence:
倅䋃ヌ步𧶮𣅶 (Cư đrã·đrã lảt mờ đrã)- I was fast when I walked (1S.FAM fast walk prep)
Others
間於 (Ghen·Đi)- While/at the same time as
爲 (Cao)- Because/since
耒 (Húy)- (And) then
咍 (Áy)- Or
雖 (Suy)- Although
𤳄 (Cúy)- So
以 (Nuinh)- In order to
Sample sentence:
倅䋃ヌ雖湄 (Cư đrã·đrã suy hứy)- I was fast although it was raining (1s.FAM fast CONJ rain)
There are 2 kinds of clausal conjunctions: those that behave like relative clause nouns and those that don’t. There is no equivalent for the conjunction “that” and where it would be used the two sentences are simply joined together.
Those similar to relative clauses
𣅶 (Đrã)- When (present/future/recent past)
時 (Sưy)- When (distant past)
兜 (Lơnh)- Where
物 (Mut)- What/which
𠊛 (Ởnh)- Who
咦牢 (Ha·Khet)- Why
芇 (Ỹ)- How/the way
𠓀𢗼 (Đỉ·Lo)- Before
耒 (Húy)- After
𠓀捉 (Đỉ·Áo)- Until
Sample sentence:
倅䋃ヌ步𧶮𣅶 (Cư đrã·đrã lảt mờ đrã)- I was fast when I walked (1S.FAM fast walk prep)
Others
間於 (Ghen·Đi)- While/at the same time as
爲 (Cao)- Because/since
耒 (Húy)- (And) then
咍 (Áy)- Or
雖 (Suy)- Although
𤳄 (Cúy)- So
以 (Nuinh)- In order to
Sample sentence:
倅䋃ヌ雖湄 (Cư đrã·đrã suy hứy)- I was fast although it was raining (1s.FAM fast CONJ rain)
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 20 Jul 2018 10:26, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
The order of the clause and the connective is different, right?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
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Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Yep. In the top ones the clause comes before the connective while in the bottom ones they come afterCreyeditor wrote:The order of the clause and the connective is different, right?
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Classifiers
Classifiers are placed between the number and the noun that they refer to. Classifiers are placed into 2 groups based on the kind of numbers they take: traditional or Chinese. Above 1000, all numbers are automatically Chinese numbers with no exceptions. Although Chinese counters tend to involve length and money, this is far from a rule and the which set of numbers a counter takes must be learned on its own. Below are some of the more common counters:
Traditional
𣘃 (Bè)- Long/thin/stick-like objects (bottles, rivers, ties, roads, sticks, etc.)
𧷺 (Bõ)- Round objects
丐 (Cà)- Any inanimate object without its own counter
𥟌 (Cả)- Bovids/deer
座 (Đừ)- Buildings/statues
鉗 (Ghém)- Fish/invertebrates
面 (Mèn)- Flat and smooth surfaces (e.g: flags, mirrors, walls)
人 (Nin)- People
瞂 (Pá)- Days
片 (Pẽn)- Thin/flat objects not made of paper (e.g: CDs, slices, movies, DVD’s)
𦑃 (Sãp)- Birds/bats
𦲿 (Vã)- Leaves, sheets and other thin items made out of leaves/paper
畫 (Vẽ)- Character strokes
回 (Vi)- Number of times/occurrences
𡓋 (Y)- Animals
神 (Yãnh)- Gods/spirits/holy people/weather phenomena
Chinese
倍 (Bứy)- Number of times something is multiplied
章 (Chanh)- Chapters
種 (Chónh)- Kinds/types/sorts
週 (Chu)- Weeks
層 (Đơnh)- Stories/Floors/Strata
銅 (Đunh)- Đồng
𣇞 (Đrả)- Hours
冊 (Đréc)- Books
之 (Mớ)- Seconds
年 (Nen)- Years
丿 (Pun)- Minutes
本 (Pứn)- Volumes (of books and movies)/issues (of magazines)/tv show episodes
歲 (Xờy)- Years of age
夜 (Yà)- Nights/overnight stays
曜 (Yè)- Days of the week
圓 (Yúin)- Yuan
Classifiers are placed between the number and the noun that they refer to. Classifiers are placed into 2 groups based on the kind of numbers they take: traditional or Chinese. Above 1000, all numbers are automatically Chinese numbers with no exceptions. Although Chinese counters tend to involve length and money, this is far from a rule and the which set of numbers a counter takes must be learned on its own. Below are some of the more common counters:
Traditional
𣘃 (Bè)- Long/thin/stick-like objects (bottles, rivers, ties, roads, sticks, etc.)
𧷺 (Bõ)- Round objects
丐 (Cà)- Any inanimate object without its own counter
𥟌 (Cả)- Bovids/deer
座 (Đừ)- Buildings/statues
鉗 (Ghém)- Fish/invertebrates
面 (Mèn)- Flat and smooth surfaces (e.g: flags, mirrors, walls)
人 (Nin)- People
瞂 (Pá)- Days
片 (Pẽn)- Thin/flat objects not made of paper (e.g: CDs, slices, movies, DVD’s)
𦑃 (Sãp)- Birds/bats
𦲿 (Vã)- Leaves, sheets and other thin items made out of leaves/paper
畫 (Vẽ)- Character strokes
回 (Vi)- Number of times/occurrences
𡓋 (Y)- Animals
神 (Yãnh)- Gods/spirits/holy people/weather phenomena
Chinese
倍 (Bứy)- Number of times something is multiplied
章 (Chanh)- Chapters
種 (Chónh)- Kinds/types/sorts
週 (Chu)- Weeks
層 (Đơnh)- Stories/Floors/Strata
銅 (Đunh)- Đồng
𣇞 (Đrả)- Hours
冊 (Đréc)- Books
之 (Mớ)- Seconds
年 (Nen)- Years
丿 (Pun)- Minutes
本 (Pứn)- Volumes (of books and movies)/issues (of magazines)/tv show episodes
歲 (Xờy)- Years of age
夜 (Yà)- Nights/overnight stays
曜 (Yè)- Days of the week
圓 (Yúin)- Yuan
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 14 Apr 2018 20:14, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
This is just a general question, but did this trait evolve from contact with Chinese and Austro-Asiatic? (and even less relevantly, are there any hypotheses linking that trait with Andamese?)
Spoiler:
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
From my understanding, Proto-Chamic developed classifiers due to contact with Mon-Khmer and then further borrowed some counters from Malay which went through a similar process on its own. Similar to some other Proto-Chamic languages, Ởnh·Vú further extended its number of classifiers due to contact with Chinese. I haven't seen anything about a relation to that with Andamese but I wouldn't be surprised if that were the caseqwed117 wrote:This is just a general question, but did this trait evolve from contact with Chinese and Austro-Asiatic? (and even less relevantly, are there any hypotheses linking that trait with Andamese?)
Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
Since I've finished grammar and syntax as far as I'm aware would you guys be interested in me covering some of the more complicated characters with multiple readings?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language
What's the etymology of the word for "hour"?
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