Quick Diachronics Challenge
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
That's roughly my guess to the groupings. The dashed lines are extremely tenuous connections. I suspect the words were something like *ˈtʰogen and *ipʰuqin, but I haven't delved deep enough yet.
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
You're almost right when it comes to the "major" groupings in that there is an east vs. west division, but you've misclassified a couple of languages into the wrong groups. Your lower level classifications are similarly almost correct, but a few languages here and there have been placed into the wrong groups.qwed117 wrote:
That's roughly my guess to the groupings. The dashed lines are extremely tenuous connections. I suspect the words were something like *ˈtʰogen and *ipʰuqin, but I haven't delved deep enough yet.
I'm more or less tempted to suggest that Click is closer here. You've correctly determined the placement of stress in the proto-language, and that, in the second word, the second syllable is closed by a "guttural" consonant.Click wrote:Spoiler:
I think that's all I'll say for the moment, but it's quite interesting to see incredibly similar preliminary guesses so quickly from two different users. You're not quite there, but I think you might get closer with some more digging
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
]
Very interesting response. Given that there's only 11 languages, and you mention that there's more than one language misplaced, that makes my groupings rather inaccurate, doesn't it....
Hmm, the word "guttural" isn't particularly helpful, but I figure that taking the most colloquial definition is probably safe. I can't really imagine what this guttural consonant could be other than Click's /ʁ/. I guess I'll just attach Click's corrections onto my word and add glottalization instead of aspiration...
*t'ógen
*ip'uʁqín
Very interesting response. Given that there's only 11 languages, and you mention that there's more than one language misplaced, that makes my groupings rather inaccurate, doesn't it....
Hmm, the word "guttural" isn't particularly helpful, but I figure that taking the most colloquial definition is probably safe. I can't really imagine what this guttural consonant could be other than Click's /ʁ/. I guess I'll just attach Click's corrections onto my word and add glottalization instead of aspiration...
*t'ógen
*ip'uʁqín
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I think I'm going to have to wait for a guess or two from other people before saying anything more
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I'm gonna go a bit of a weird way here, with no glottalisations or aspirations:
*tógjən
*əpjaʁkjə́ŋ
My map is not much, but I hope I get some parts right (particularly the relative isolates).
*tógjən
*əpjaʁkjə́ŋ
My map is not much, but I hope I get some parts right (particularly the relative isolates).
: | : | : | :
Conlangs: Hawntow, Yorkish, misc.
she/her
Conlangs: Hawntow, Yorkish, misc.
she/her
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Hmmm... let's have a go at this...
Znex's grouping is a little more accurate in some areas, but less so in others. The orange group is a valid low-level grouping and they are related to the languages to the south, but not in the way proposed. In the west, by excluding the language on the small southern island, you've improved on Qwed's black group (which is a valid highest-level grouping), but simultaneously made it too constrained by excluding the language the the north of the northern island.
The only improvement that's been made in terms of the actual proto-words is that they don't contain aspirated or glottalised consonants, but the reflexes seen in the various daughter languages aren't down to *j-final clusters either.
So far you've hit on the following:
a) The first word is bisyllabic, and the second is trisyllabic
b) Both words end in *n
c) The syllable structure of both words
d) The stress placement in both words
e) The coda "guttural" in the second word, and that it's uvular.
f) And Click has correctly guessed the POA of the rest of the consonants in both words
As a hint, there may be some areal influence going on in lower-level groups.
Znex's grouping is a little more accurate in some areas, but less so in others. The orange group is a valid low-level grouping and they are related to the languages to the south, but not in the way proposed. In the west, by excluding the language on the small southern island, you've improved on Qwed's black group (which is a valid highest-level grouping), but simultaneously made it too constrained by excluding the language the the north of the northern island.
The only improvement that's been made in terms of the actual proto-words is that they don't contain aspirated or glottalised consonants, but the reflexes seen in the various daughter languages aren't down to *j-final clusters either.
So far you've hit on the following:
a) The first word is bisyllabic, and the second is trisyllabic
b) Both words end in *n
c) The syllable structure of both words
d) The stress placement in both words
e) The coda "guttural" in the second word, and that it's uvular.
f) And Click has correctly guessed the POA of the rest of the consonants in both words
As a hint, there may be some areal influence going on in lower-level groups.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Whoops, sorry, the POA of the second consonant of the first word has not been correctly identified yet.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
*tóɟen and *ipiʁkín?
(EDIT: I don't know why I put aspiration on the second
(EDIT: I don't know why I put aspiration on the second
Last edited by qwed117 on 30 Sep 2017 01:44, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
(sort of a hint) I'd be quite interested in seeing people's thinking on how the various words ended up with voiced and voiceless corresponding pairs.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Here was my first attempt:
I also tried comparing components such as stress and having something to do with nasality in the coda, but I didn't find too much information.
/tiˈʑen/ + /aˈpoːq/ seems to be a central component to the reconstruction.
I also tried comparing components such as stress and having something to do with nasality in the coda, but I didn't find too much information.
/tiˈʑen/ + /aˈpoːq/ seems to be a central component to the reconstruction.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I wondered if you'd notice that, lol. With the lack of aspiration you're actually closer to with the second word but further away with the first.qwed117 wrote:*tóɟen and *ipiʁkín?
(EDIT: I don't know why I put aspiration on the second
Your red groupings on the eastern half of the largest island are correct, but that's about it without really adding too much information regarding the groupings than I've already given.jimydog000 wrote:Here was my first attempt:
I also tried comparing components such as stress and having something to do with nasality in the coda, but I didn't find too much information.
/tiˈʑen/ + /aˈpoːq/ seems to be a central component to the reconstruction.
If I had to pick three languages that would be "central" to the reconstruction, I'd say maybe 'da: - 'ba.ka, 'tain - 'ba.kin and 'tʰuoçən - ɕə'cʰin.
As I mentioned in a previous post, looking at the groupings, especially in regards to the MOA of the various plosives in both words, is fairly important.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
*tʰɔ́ɟen and *əbirqín
Partly based on Sangi's comments. I decided to make the first vowel 'ɔ́' since it had reflexes similar to proto-Romance *ǫ. I also made the (previous) *p in the second word a *b considering how its voicing is differently affected throughout the range of words. I suspect the creaky voicing in [a'pak] may be because of the voicing being lost. When the stress moved back in the language, the effect was also to devoice the *b.
Partly based on Sangi's comments. I decided to make the first vowel 'ɔ́' since it had reflexes similar to proto-Romance *ǫ. I also made the (previous) *p in the second word a *b considering how its voicing is differently affected throughout the range of words. I suspect the creaky voicing in [a'pak] may be because of the voicing being lost. When the stress moved back in the language, the effect was also to devoice the *b.
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Unfortunately getting colder.qwed117 wrote:*tʰɔ́ɟen and *əbirqín
Partly based on Sangi's comments. I decided to make the first vowel 'ɔ́' since it had reflexes similar to proto-Romance *ǫ. I also made the (previous) *p in the second word a *b considering how its voicing is differently affected throughout the range of words. I suspect the creaky voicing in [a'pak] may be because of the voicing being lost. When the stress moved back in the language, the effect was also to devoice the *b.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Went a tad quiet there didn't it?
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
You really are just gonna have to give us a hint.
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Hmmm... the only one I can think of, and the one that inspired some of the sound changes, would be... "Yapese" and "glottalisation"
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
*tʰɔ́qən and *əpirkín
That's all I got
Maybe a Proto-lang inventory could help?
That's all I got
Maybe a Proto-lang inventory could help?
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Oooo, getting closer thereqwed117 wrote:*tʰɔ́qən and *əpirkín
That's all I got
Maybe a Proto-lang inventory could help?
The phoneme inventory isn't actually that bad, just:
/p t ts k q/
/m n ŋ/
/s h/
/r l/
/w j/
/i u/
/e o/
/a/
(C)V(C) with unpredictable final or penultimate stress.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.