English Orthography Reform

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
Keenir
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Keenir »

Zé do Rock wrote: 02 Aug 2018 22:22
Of course: if you create a system in which people can learn all a doctor knows in say one month, doctors wont like it at all, because the advantage they have comparing with the riff-raff would be gone, and they'd lose their jobs. Only very few who think the welfare of humanity is more important than their own would approve of it.
and who are these "doctors" in this analogy? it smells like you're making a strawman, what with the riffraff.
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Salmoneus
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Salmoneus »

The difference in the case of spelling, of course, is that 94% of people are already "millionaires", 4% will become millionaires soon with minimal effort, and 1% of people will never be rich no matter what reform you introduce. That leaves 1% who might actually benefit somewhat from spelling reform, and 94% who are going to lose out massively (because they'll have to learn to spell again). Therefore, such a reform will not happen.


[in other news: "the Fuehrer". What a surprise. I'd never have guessed you were one of those people from your earlier rant about not being allowed to call black people the n-word anymore...]
Zé do Rock
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Re: How deranged is the English spelling system?

Post by Zé do Rock »

Keenir wrote: 01 Aug 2018 23:46 wait, China and Japan don't count as colonial powers?
REFORMIRT (wunschdeutsch > ultradoitsh)

Ich würde sagen, das is aine frage der definizion, aba es würd uns nich waita helfen, da wir fertige namen brauchen, und chinan und japaniano ferwenden das roman alfabeet nur ser begrenzt.

ENGLISH

I guess this is a matter of definition, but it wouldnt help us any further, since we need ready made names, and chinese and japanese just use the roman alphabet in a very limited way.

could you please provide references and-or links to all these books and awards/societies that you keep mentioning?
REFORMIRT (HS > RITE, ULTRAFRANSAI > PANLATINO, ULTRASPANIO > PORTUNIOL CIENTIFICO, BRAZILEIS > PORTUNIOL CIENTIFICO)

If u google 'zé do rock' u'l see quite a few articles about me (or from me, ritten in reformd spelling), including a wikipedia article and prizes. Ma il sont en deutsh, tu va nececitar la google traducteur ou kelc cosa similar, sôf si tu parla deutsh. No creo ki vas incontrar una mención sobre la nominación pra la Preis des Bundespräsidenten für Innovation und Technik, eso fué face unos 20 anos, y fué una nominación, ki es algo ki no aparece en biografies. Eu contei akelu pra mostrar ki hav ai i ai um sertu reconecimentu oficial pra reform ortografic, pelu menus em otras linguas.

Der link zur TESS is: http://www.spellingsociety.org/.


ENGLISH

If you google 'zé do rock' you'll see quite a few articles about me (or from me, written in reformed spelling), including a wikipedia article and prizes. But they're all in german, you'll need google translator or something else, unless you can speak german. I dont think you'll find a mention about the nomination for the Preis des Bundespräsidenten für Innovation und Technik, it was around 20 years ago and it was a nomination, which is something that doesnt appear in biographies. I told that to show that there was and there is some official recognition for spelling reform, at least in other languages.

The link to TESS is: http://www.spellingsociety.org/.
clawgrip
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Re: How deranged is the English spelling system?

Post by clawgrip »

Zé do Rock wrote: 03 Aug 2018 07:37
Keenir wrote: 01 Aug 2018 23:46 wait, ... Japan [doesn't] count as a colonial power?
I guess this is a matter of definition
Ask Korea if it's a matter of definition. Ask China. Ask Indonesia. Ask Vietnam. Ask Cambodia. Ask Thailand. Ask Myanmar. Ask Laos. Ask Malaysia. Ask Philippines. Ask Manchukuo...wait, don't ask them.
Keenir
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Re: How deranged is the English spelling system?

Post by Keenir »

clawgrip wrote: 03 Aug 2018 10:58
Zé do Rock wrote: 03 Aug 2018 07:37
Keenir wrote: 01 Aug 2018 23:46 wait, ... Japan [doesn't] count as a colonial power?
I guess this is a matter of definition
Ask Korea if it's a matter of definition. Ask China. Ask Indonesia. Ask Vietnam. Ask Cambodia. Ask Thailand. Ask Myanmar. Ask Laos. Ask Malaysia. Ask Philippines. Ask Manchukuo...wait, don't ask them.
*nods*
also, I'd like to know when the Japanese failed to use/have names for people, places, foods, etc in their language.
Zé do Rock wrote: 03 Aug 2018 07:37 , but it wouldnt help us any further, since we need ready made names,
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Zé do Rock
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock »

Keenir wrote: 02 Aug 2018 23:36
Zé do Rock wrote: 02 Aug 2018 22:22
Of course: if you create a system in which people can learn all a doctor knows in say one month, doctors wont like it at all, because the advantage they have comparing with the riff-raff would be gone, and they'd lose their jobs. Only very few who think the welfare of humanity is more important than their own would approve of it.
and who are these "doctors" in this analogy? it smells like you're making a strawman, what with the riffraff.
REFORMD

The doctors in this analojy ar the good spellers, the rifraf ar the less good spellers or bad spellers.

Je sa pa se ke tu veu dir avec "making a strawman".


ENGLISH

The doctors in this analogy are the good spellers, the riffraff are the less good spellers or bad spellers.

I dont know what you mean with "making a strawman".
Keenir
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Keenir »

Zé do Rock wrote: 04 Aug 2018 18:51
Keenir wrote: 02 Aug 2018 23:36
Zé do Rock wrote: 02 Aug 2018 22:22
Of course: if you create a system in which people can learn all a doctor knows in say one month, doctors wont like it at all, because the advantage they have comparing with the riff-raff would be gone, and they'd lose their jobs. Only very few who think the welfare of humanity is more important than their own would approve of it.
and who are these "doctors" in this analogy? it smells like you're making a strawman, what with the riffraff.
REFORMD

The doctors in this analojy ar the good spellers, the rifraf ar the less good spellers or bad spellers.

Je sa pa se ke tu veu dir avec "making a strawman".


ENGLISH

The doctors in this analogy are the good spellers, the riffraff are the less good spellers or bad spellers.
but doesn't the shorter words of this reform, actually make it easier to misspell words? if most words are only two or three letters long...
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Zé do Rock
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock »

Salmoneus wrote: 03 Aug 2018 02:20 The difference in the case of spelling, of course, is that 94% of people are already "millionaires", 4% will become millionaires soon with minimal effort, and 1% of people will never be rich no matter what reform you introduce. That leaves 1% who might actually benefit somewhat from spelling reform, and 94% who are going to lose out massively (because they'll have to learn to spell again). Therefore, such a reform will not happen.
EUROPAN

Segon a stud af el USano Departament af Educacion, 32 milion USis can no le. Meme si la definiciones de funccional analfabetismo is bene relativ, mi supon oni can no nomiz a funccional analfabet, importa no como la definicion is, a personi co bon ortografie. Et inter pople co gud e mau ortografie mus ai oso la medio scrivis. Scolis can acuir a bon ortografie, mas unali lis mus go dru la martiritee, e den oni ha la stos miliones - meibi meme miliardes - pople in minu developee landes ki spik inglish e L2 lernis.

Sondages in Deutshland mostrou ki 50% du populacion is pro (or auminu was pro) un ortografie reform, e dat in a lingua dat is super minu nereglare dan inglish. Mi spicou co nepok inglishe nativo spikis abaut lu, e mi had non el imprecion ki lu is super diferent in inglishe spicale landes. El unico land vo cuazi ali reacte super negativlik et agresivli was Franse.


ENGLISH

According to a study of the US Department of Education, 32 million americans cant read. Even if definitions of functional illiteracy are quite relative, i guess you cant call a functional illiterate, no matter how the definition is, a good speller. And between good and bad spellers there must be medium spellers. School children can get good spellers, but first they have to go thru the ordeal, and then you have the hundreds of millions - perhaps even billions - of people in less developed english speaking countries and L2 learners.

Polls in Germany showed that 50% of the population favor (or favored at least) a spelling reform, and this in a language that is much less irregular than english. I have talked to quite a few english speaking people about that, and i didnt have the impression that it is any different in english speaking countries. The only country where the reaction to it is really aggressive from nearly anyone was France.


[in other news: "the Fuehrer". What a surprise. I'd never have guessed you were one of those people from your earlier rant about not being allowed to call black people the n-word anymore...]
[/quote]

EUROPAN

Mi sa no wat yu vole sei hir: ki pople dat ama no la nani stat e la lingua polis is nazis?

ENGLISH

I dont know what you want to say here: that people that dont like the nanny state and language police are nazis?
Keenir
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Keenir »

Zé do Rock wrote: 04 Aug 2018 23:48 ENGLISHAccording to a study of the US Department of Education, 32 million americans cant read. Even if definitions of functional illiteracy are quite relative, i guess you cant call a functional illiterate, no matter how the definition is, a good speller. And between good and bad spellers there must be medium spellers. School children can get good spellers, but first they have to go thru the ordeal, and then you have the hundreds of millions - perhaps even billions - of people in less developed english speaking countries and L2 learners.
this isn't because of the problems with the English writing system...its because we pay our teachers crap & are falling behind in education. it would remain a problem no matter what writing system we had.
[in other news: "the Fuehrer". What a surprise. I'd never have guessed you were one of those people from your earlier rant about not being allowed to call black people the n-word anymore...]
ENGLISH
I dont know what you want to say here: that people that dont like the nanny state and language police are nazis?
There are two options:
a. you don't know what is being said...in which case, is it a good idea to reform a language you don't understand?
b. you do know what was just said...in which case, you're playing dumb.
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Zé do Rock
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Re: How deranged is the English spelling system?

Post by Zé do Rock »

clawgrip wrote: 03 Aug 2018 10:58
Zé do Rock wrote: 03 Aug 2018 07:37
Keenir wrote: 01 Aug 2018 23:46 wait, ... Japan [doesn't] count as a colonial power?
I guess this is a matter of definition
Ask Korea if it's a matter of definition. Ask China. Ask Indonesia. Ask Vietnam. Ask Cambodia. Ask Thailand. Ask Myanmar. Ask Laos. Ask Malaysia. Ask Philippines. Ask Manchukuo...wait, don't ask them.
REFORMADO

Por la definicion de diccionaris como Merriam-Webster, "control by one power over a dependent area or people", el ocupacion japaniano de media Asia y Pacifico tamben foi colonialismo. Mas normalment, cuando la genti fala de colonialismo nel occident, lis kere dizer el ocupacion de paizes o regiones ki no ten una fronter en comun, ocupando por un tempo suficiente pra influenciar la cultura da region ocupad, i no ocupaciones ki si pasa nuna gerra maior. Also nennen wir es normalawaise nich kolonialismus als die Sovietunion Esteuropa besetzt hat, um Deutshland zu bekempfen, oda als die aliirten Deutshland besetzten, oda die japaniano besetzung fon Sudest Asia und Pacifik, oda die brazilian expansion nach west - ich hab shon file kritiken üba Brazil gehört, aba ich kann mich nich erinnan das man es aine kolonialmacht nannte. I'd call that rather expansionism, as the expansion of chinano borders to Tibet and wat is now West China. Mas evidemen on apelerai el ocupacion par longo tem de Korea e Manchuria par la japanis de colonialismo.

A propósit, eres japani o simplemente vives en Japan?

ENGLISH

By the definition of dictionaries like Merriam-Webster, "control by one power over a dependent area or people", the japanese occupation of half Asia and Pacific was colonialism too. But usually when people talk about colonialism in the west, they mean occupying a country which doesnt have a common border with them, occupying it for enough time to have some influence on their culture, and not occupations that happen in a bigger war. So usually we dont call it colonialism when the Soviet Union invaded Eastern Europe to fight Germany, or when the allied troops invaded Germany, or the japanese invasion in Southeast Asia and Pacific, or the brazilian expansion to the west - i've heard many criticisms about Brazil, but i cant remember having heard that it is/was a colonial power. I'd call that rather expansionism, as the expansion of chinese borders to Tibet and what is now West China. But of course we'd call the long time occupation of Korea and Manchuria by the japanese as colonialism.

By the way, are you japanese or you just happen to live there?
Zé do Rock
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock »

Keenir wrote: 04 Aug 2018 19:04 but doesn't the shorter words of this reform, actually make it easier to misspell words? if most words are only two or three letters long...
EUROPAN

Looke ta numero durli 5 secund e den trai scrive lu bes looke lu: 354. Nau looke ta numero durli 5 secund e trai scrivu lu: 859365821847. Nau trai scrive lu bes looke lu.

Looke ta vord durli 5 secund e den trai scrive lu: stau (dat is la deutshe vord pro stau). Nau looke ta vord durli 5 secund e den trai scrive lu: liikenneruuhka (dat is la suomiano vord pro stau).


ENGLISH

Look at this number for 5 seconds and then try to write it down without seeing it: 354. Now look at this number for 5 seconds and try to write it down: 859365821847. Now try to write it down without seeing it.

Look at this word for 5 seconds and then try to write it down: stau (this is the german word for trafic jam). Now look at this word for 5 seconds and then try to write it down: liikenneruuhka (this is the finnish word for trafic jam).
Zé do Rock
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock »

Keenir wrote: 05 Aug 2018 00:18 this isn't because of the problems with the English writing system...its because we pay our teachers crap & are falling behind in education. it would remain a problem no matter what writing system we had.
REFORMADU

Tu pensa mezmo ki professores de Italia o de Indonesia é melhor pago ki professor britanic o USan? Und glaubst du wirklich das 10 000 bis 40 000 informazionen auswendig zu lernen nich swiriga is als 26 fon inen zu lernen?


ENGLISH

So do you really think that italian or indonesian teachers are better paid than british or american ones? And do you really believe that learning 10 000 to 40 000 peaces of information by heart isnt any more difficult than learning 26 of them?

There are two options:
a. you don't know what is being said...in which case, is it a good idea to reform a language you don't understand?
b. you do know what was just said...in which case, you're playing dumb.
REFORMD

If u think that 2 nativ speekers cant misunderstand eech uther, u shud hav a look at enny australian or british or canadian cupple. E no conetre kelc expreciones en inglish ha ninuna relacion co la conessans del ortografie e prononciacion. Si kieres tirar pedras, aya algo en el ortografie ki tu consideras fals. Ademais, la House Stile non é mi invencion, comu eu no canso de splicar, é lo rezultado de una votacion entre membris da TESS, ki é frecuentemente professoris de universidad, autoris, etc, i mais ki 90% delis ten inglishe como lingua materna.

ENGLISH

If you think that 2 native speakers cant misunderstand each other, you should have a look at any australian or british or canadian couple. And not knowing certain expressions in english doesnt have anything to do with the knowledge of spelling and pronunciation. If you feel like throwing stones, find something in the Spelling that you consider wrong. Besides, the House Stile isnt my creation, as i dont get tired to explain, it is the result of a poll among TESS members, who are often university professors, book authors, etc, more than 90% of them native speakers.
Keenir
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Re: How deranged is the English spelling system?

Post by Keenir »

Zé do Rock wrote: 05 Aug 2018 10:06
clawgrip wrote: 03 Aug 2018 10:58
Zé do Rock wrote: 03 Aug 2018 07:37
Keenir wrote: 01 Aug 2018 23:46 wait, ... Japan [doesn't] count as a colonial power?
I guess this is a matter of definition
Ask Korea if it's a matter of definition. Ask China. Ask Indonesia. Ask Vietnam. Ask Cambodia. Ask Thailand. Ask Myanmar. Ask Laos. Ask Malaysia. Ask Philippines. Ask Manchukuo...wait, don't ask them.
ENGLISH

By the definition of dictionaries like Merriam-Webster, "control by one power over a dependent area or people", the japanese occupation of half Asia and Pacific was colonialism too. But usually when people talk about colonialism in the west, they mean occupying a country which doesnt have a common border with them, occupying it for enough time to have some influence on their culture, and not occupations that happen in a bigger war. So usually we dont call it colonialism when the Soviet Union invaded Eastern Europe to fight Germany, or when the allied troops invaded Germany, or the japanese invasion in Southeast Asia and Pacific,
didn't Japan invade Vietnam and southern China (since you mentioned Manchuria specifically) before WW2 broke out? also Japan's northernmost island, which even now has been called "Japan's Old West".
By the way, are you japanese or you just happen to live there?
not sure how that's a relevant question.
Zé do Rock wrote: 05 Aug 2018 10:45ENGLISH
Look at this number for 5 seconds and then try to write it down without seeing it: 354. Now look at this number for 5 seconds and try to write it down: 859365821847. Now try to write it down without seeing it.
Look at this word for 5 seconds and then try to write it down: stau (this is the german word for trafic jam). Now look at this word for 5 seconds and then try to write it down: liikenneruuhka (this is the finnish word for trafic jam).
except that, to me, both of those numbers are random collections of numbers, with no signifigance...what harm is there to saying 345? the shorter the word, the easier it is to goof...if I accidentally say "boochkeeper" instead of "bookkeeper", the listener will understand what I mean...if I say "pa" instead of "po" in your Reformed English, will my meaning carry through?
Zé do Rock wrote: 05 Aug 2018 12:47
Keenir wrote: 05 Aug 2018 00:18 this isn't because of the problems with the English writing system...its because we pay our teachers crap & are falling behind in education. it would remain a problem no matter what writing system we had.
So do you really think that italian or indonesian teachers are better paid than british or american ones? And do you really believe that learning 10 000 to 40 000 peaces of information by heart isnt any more difficult than learning 26 of them?
I never said any of what your two questions here assert.
There are two options:
a. you don't know what is being said...in which case, is it a good idea to reform a language you don't understand?
b. you do know what was just said...in which case, you're playing dumb.
If you think that 2 native speakers cant misunderstand each other, you should have a look at any australian or british or canadian couple.
wow...doubling down. a risky move.
Besides, the House Stile isnt my creation, as i dont get tired to explain, it is the result of a poll among TESS members, who are often university professors, book authors, etc, more than 90% of them native speakers.
well, for better or worse, you are the only Reform English person championing it here, so of course we are going to address you.
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clawgrip
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Re: How deranged is the English spelling system?

Post by clawgrip »

Zé do Rock wrote: 05 Aug 2018 10:06By the definition of dictionaries like Merriam-Webster, "control by one power over a dependent area or people", the japanese occupation of half Asia and Pacific was colonialism too. But usually when people talk about colonialism in the west, they mean occupying a country which doesnt have a common border with them, occupying it for enough time to have some influence on their culture, and not occupations that happen in a bigger war. So usually we dont call it colonialism when the Soviet Union invaded Eastern Europe to fight Germany, or when the allied troops invaded Germany, or the japanese invasion in Southeast Asia and Pacific, or the brazilian expansion to the west - i've heard many criticisms about Brazil, but i cant remember having heard that it is/was a colonial power. I'd call that rather expansionism, as the expansion of chinese borders to Tibet and what is now West China. But of course we'd call the long time occupation of Korea and Manchuria by the japanese as colonialism.

By the way, are you japanese or you just happen to live there?
Japan was confronted by European colonialists, and was faced with being either a colony or a colonizer. It chose to copy Europeans by modernizing and then invading other countries, long before WW2. Korea and Manchuria, as you mentioned, are definitely colonialism, and I would apply that to Okinawa and China as well. Hokkaido seems more like expansionism.

I am not Japanese, I have just lived here for a long time.
Zé do Rock
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Re: How deranged is the English spelling system?

Post by Zé do Rock »

Keenir wrote: 05 Aug 2018 12:50 didn't Japan invade Vietnam and southern China (since you mentioned Manchuria specifically) before WW2 broke out? also Japan's northernmost island, which even now has been called "Japan's Old West".
EUROPAN

Mi va no studi la japaniano historie nau, senti libre tu nomize lu colonialismo. Pro mai ciles lu importa no, lorske japanian e chinan uza no la roman alfabet, et i scrivau no Taiwan co chinano kanju o japaniano katagana o hiragana.

ENGLISH

I wont study the japanese history now, feel free to call it colonialism. For my purposes it doesnt matter, since neither japanese nor chinese use the roman alphabet, and i wouldnt write Taiwan with chinese kanji or japanese katagana or hiragana.

By the way, are you japanese or you just happen to live there?
not sure how that's a relevant question.
EUROPAN

Mi cuestionou Clawgrip coze curiozitee, lorske li viv in Japan e mi volou sa si li critica Japan as japani or as un autlandi in Japan.

ENGLISH

I was asking Clawgrip out of curiosity, since he/she lives in Japan and i wanted to know if he/she criticizes Japan as a japanese or a foreigner in Japan.
except that, to me, both of those numbers are random collections of numbers, with no signifigance...what harm is there to saying 345? the shorter the word, the easier it is to goof...if I accidentally say "boochkeeper" instead of "bookkeeper", the listener will understand what I mean...if I say "pa" instead of "po" in your Reformed English, will my meaning carry through?
EUROPAN

Ya, linguas as inglish, co rada corto vordes, ha la vantage dat oni can memoren vordes plus izili, ma lus ha ta neventage ki subtile falsitees in scriv o spicu fa vordes nereconeseble. Co plu corto vordes la vantage sta plu forte (memorening vordes), ma la nevantage sta plu fort oso.

ENGLISH

Yeah, languages like english, with rather short words, have the advantage that you can memorize words more easily, but they have this disadvantage that slight mistakes in spelling or speech make words irrecognizable. With a shorter spelling the advantage gets stronger (memorizing words) but the disadvantage gets stronger too.
Zé do Rock wrote: 05 Aug 2018 12:47
Keenir wrote: 05 Aug 2018 00:18 this isn't because of the problems with the English writing system...its because we pay our teachers crap & are falling behind in education. it would remain a problem no matter what writing system we had.
So do you really think that italian or indonesian teachers are better paid than british or american ones? And do you really believe that learning 10 000 to 40 000 peaces of information by heart isnt any more difficult than learning 26 of them?
I never said any of what your two questions here assert.
EUROPAN

Afirmaciones is afirmaciones, cuestiones is cuestiones. Mi cuestionou.

ENGLISH

Statements are statements, questions are questions. I asked.
There are two options:
a. you don't know what is being said...in which case, is it a good idea to reform a language you don't understand?
b. you do know what was just said...in which case, you're playing dumb.
If you think that 2 native speakers cant misunderstand each other, you should have a look at any australian or british or canadian couple.
wow...doubling down. a risky move.
EUROPAN

Mi solo sei: si yu pensa 2 nativo spikis nowen discomprende mutuali, solo sei mi.

ENGLISH

I just say: if you think that 2 native speakers never have misunderstandings between them, just tell me.

Besides, the House Stile isnt my creation, as i dont get tired to explain, it is the result of a poll among TESS members, who are often university professors, book authors, etc, more than 90% of them native speakers.
well, for better or worse, you are the only Reform English person championing it here, so of course we are going to address you.
EUROPAN

Clar, ai no sens in critiking a sistema bai seining ki su creati is mau in dat lingua, wen li is no la creati. As yu can no count as provu pro la culpa af el acuzati bai seining tu la corte dat el advocato hav un afer co su secretara, meme si lo spoz. Si yu vole critica la House Stile coze lu ha falsitees o coze simpli lu a reform, senti libre, mas ai no sens in critiking mi.

ENGLISH

Sure, but there is no point in criticizing a system by saying that its creator is bad in that language, when thats not the creator. As you cant count as proof for the guilt of a defendant telling the court that the lawyer has an affair with his secretary, even being married. If you want to criticize the House Stile for being flawed or for being a reform at all, feel free, but there is no point in criticizing me.
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Re: How deranged is the English spelling system?

Post by Keenir2 »

Zé do Rock wrote: 05 Aug 2018 17:45
Keenir wrote: 05 Aug 2018 12:50 didn't Japan invade Vietnam and southern China (since you mentioned Manchuria specifically) before WW2 broke out? also Japan's northernmost island, which even now has been called "Japan's Old West".
I wont study the japanese history now, feel free to call it colonialism.
so, you don't want to study Japan's history, because they colonized?
For my purposes it doesnt matter, since neither japanese nor chinese use the roman alphabet,
since when?

boy do you have a surprise coming when you look up "Giles-Wade". :D
and i wouldnt write Taiwan with chinese kanji or japanese katagana or hiragana.
why not?
Zé do Rock wrote: 05 Aug 2018 12:47
Keenir wrote: 05 Aug 2018 00:18 this isn't because of the problems with the English writing system...its because we pay our teachers crap & are falling behind in education. it would remain a problem no matter what writing system we had.
So do you really think that italian or indonesian teachers are better paid than british or american ones? And do you really believe that learning 10 000 to 40 000 peaces of information by heart isnt any more difficult than learning 26 of them?
I never said any of what your two questions here assert.
ENGLISH
Statements are statements, questions are questions. I asked.
and you didn't address what I said - you threw up chaff and red herrings.
There are two options:
a. you don't know what is being said...in which case, is it a good idea to reform a language you don't understand?
b. you do know what was just said...in which case, you're playing dumb.
If you think that 2 native speakers cant misunderstand each other, you should have a look at any australian or british or canadian couple.
wow...doubling down. a risky move.
ENGLISH
I just say: if you think that 2 native speakers never have misunderstandings between them, just tell me.
Except I don't know if you are deliberately misunderstanding, or if you genuinely didn't understand what was being said to you.
Besides, the House Stile isnt my creation, as i dont get tired to explain, it is the result of a poll among TESS members, who are often university professors, book authors, etc, more than 90% of them native speakers.
well, for better or worse, you are the only Reform English person championing it here, so of course we are going to address you.
Sure, but there is no point in criticizing a system by saying that its creator is bad in that language, when thats not the creator. As you cant count as proof for the guilt of a defendant telling the court that the lawyer has an affair with his secretary, even being married. If you want to criticize the House Stile for being flawed or for being a reform at all, feel free, but there is no point in criticizing me.
so, we can't question Reform English because you don't speak it well & aren't its creator...and we can't question you because you're spreading the gospel of Reform English?

though, aren't you exactly the sort of person that reforms of languages tend to be aimed at? the better to get more speakers of the language in question, by making it easier to speak.
Zé do Rock
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Re: How deranged is the English spelling system?

Post by Zé do Rock »

Keenir2 wrote: 07 Aug 2018 00:01 so, we can't question Reform English because you don't speak it well & aren't its creator...and we can't question you because you're spreading the gospel of Reform English?
REFORMIRT

Du kannst die rechtsraibreform kritisiren und hintafragen, gebe daine argumente. But telling an advocat of spelling reform that he's not entitled to giv arguments for spelling reform becaus his english is lousy isnt an argument to me, and it wouldnt be one for ennyone.

ENGLISH

If you want to question or criticize spelling reform, just give your arguments. But telling an advocate of spelling reform that he's not entitled to give arguments for spelling reform because his english is lousy isnt an argument to me, and it wouldnt be one for ennyone.
Keenir2
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Re: How deranged is the English spelling system?

Post by Keenir2 »

Zé do Rock wrote: 07 Aug 2018 13:03
Keenir2 wrote: 07 Aug 2018 00:01 so, we can't question Reform English because you don't speak it well & aren't its creator...and we can't question you because you're spreading the gospel of Reform English?
REFORMIRT

Du kannst die rechtsraibreform kritisiren und hintafragen, gebe daine argumente. But telling an advocat of spelling reform that he's not entitled to giv arguments for spelling reform becaus his english is lousy isnt an argument to me, and it wouldnt be one for ennyone.

ENGLISH

If you want to question or criticize spelling reform, just give your arguments. But telling an advocate of spelling reform that he's not entitled to give arguments for spelling reform because his english is lousy isnt an argument to me, and it wouldnt be one for ennyone.
I HAVE. We have all given arguments...and you either ignore them or dismiss them or say that you have no say in it and its all TESS' doing.
Zé do Rock
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Re: How deranged is the English spelling system?

Post by Zé do Rock »

Keenir2 wrote: 07 Aug 2018 17:15 I HAVE. We have all given arguments...and you either ignore them or dismiss them or say that you have no say in it and its all TESS' doing.
REFORMEE

Lo primer argumen foi ki inglishe ha dee milion dialectos, mi repond etè ky a 2 dialecto standard, e ki on no deverai reformar dee chos ki contradi un de eu. Ninun ortografie racional pode representar todos dialectos de una lingua.

El otro argumento foi ki ela criarai omógrafo novu. Maine antwort war das es file tausende wörta mit diversen bedeutungen gibt, und das macht ja auch kaine probleme. In fact, if werds with sevral meenings wer a sine of bad quality in a language, inglishe wud probbably be the seccond werst language in the werld, after chinan.

Ta argumen personal foi ki si lee mo etè plu cour, sa serai pir parse ke si on fai un ereur de frap, è plu dificile de reconetre leur sens, co ki je è dacord, mas je havè oci el argumen ke dee mo plu cour è plu facil de memorizar. Por eso penso ki en ese sentid inglish es una bona lingua, comparando con otras linguas ki tene palabras mas longas. Mas si tu pensa ki inglish é mau porkee tene palabra mais curt, tu é libre pra pensar acie.

Argumente und gegenargumente, und du kannst imma noch sagen das dir die ortografie liba is, die für alle dialekte glaich slecht is, und das es imma noch bessa is, ain par wörta zu haben mit fershidenen bedoitungen die andas gesriben werden, auch wenn die maisten es nich sind. But if u considder all counter-arguments for your arguments as dismissal, feel free to doo it.

ENGLISH

The first argument was the millions of english dialects, my answer was that there are 2 standard dialects, and we shouldnt reform stuff that contradicts one of them. No rational spelling caters for all dialects in a language.

The other argument was that it would create new homographs. My answer was that many thousands of words have several meanings, and it doesnt cause problems. In fact, if words with several meanings were a sign of bad quality in a language, english would probably be the second worst language in the world, after chinese.

Your personal argument was that shorter words would be worse because if you make a typing error, it is harder to recognize their sense, which i agree with, but i had also the argument that shorter words have the advantage that they're easier to memorize. Which is why i think english is in this sense rather a good language, compairing with languages that have longer words. But if you think that english is bad because it has rather short words, you'll free to do it.

Arguments and counter-arguments, and you can still say that you prefer the current spelling because it is equally bad for all dialects, and that it is still better to have words that have different meanings that are spelled differently, even if most aren't. But if you consider all counter-arguments for your arguments as dismissal, feel free to do it.
Keenir2
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Re: How deranged is the English spelling system?

Post by Keenir2 »

Zé do Rock wrote: 07 Aug 2018 21:41
Keenir2 wrote: 07 Aug 2018 17:15 I HAVE. We have all given arguments...and you either ignore them or dismiss them or say that you have no say in it and its all TESS' doing.
ENGLISH

The first argument was the millions of english dialects, my answer was that there are 2 standard dialects, and we shouldnt reform stuff that contradicts one of them. No rational spelling caters for all dialects in a language.
well that's not nice. also....which two standard dialects? British and Singlish, perhaps?
The other argument was that it would create new homographs. My answer was that many thousands of words have several meanings, and it doesnt cause problems. In fact, if words with several meanings were a sign of bad quality in a language, english would probably be the second worst language in the world, after chinese.
so you recognize that English has multiple dialects...but you lump all the Chinese languages together?
Your personal argument was that shorter words would be worse because if you make a typing error, it is harder to recognize their sense, which i agree with, but i had also the argument that shorter words have the advantage that they're easier to memorize.
actually, I have an easier time memorizing words that are distinctive. its why Mandarin's er sticks in my brain.
But if you consider all counter-arguments for your arguments as dismissal, feel free to do it.
You had not made counter-arguments. You ignored and dismissed them and talked about the Furer.
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