(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here [2010-2020]

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
User avatar
Pabappa
greek
greek
Posts: 577
Joined: 18 Nov 2017 02:41

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa »

For example the IE gap of *tl, dl, etc tht survives in moat languages, the scarcity of /ts/ in ancient gk due to >ss,the lack of vl,vr,etc in normal English words. Diachronics explains the ones we know....It's possible pre-PIE had and lost /tl/.
Kavunupupis, šiŋuputata.
When I see you pointing at me, I know I'm in trouble. (Play)
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 3283
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 04:06

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov »

Would an althistory where the Romans conquered part of Ireland, which had or has a Romance language competing in those parts with Gaelic work?
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
Ælfwine
roman
roman
Posts: 940
Joined: 21 Sep 2015 01:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine »

Shemtov wrote: 14 Aug 2018 04:04 Would an althistory where the Romans conquered part of Ireland, which had or has a Romance language competing in those parts with Gaelic work?
I don't see why not. OTL the Irish were very much influenced by Rome, even though they never spoke Latin.
My Blog

A-posteriori, alternative history nerd
this_is_an_account
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 143
Joined: 14 Aug 2018 06:33

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by this_is_an_account »

Hello! This is my first question here. I have an idea for noun declensions that don't change the inflexional affixes of nouns (so a noun in declension 1 would take identical case markings and number markings as a noun in declension 2), but instead would affect what derivational markings a noun got (so a noun in declension 1 would take a different diminutive marker or collective marker than a noun in declension 2). Are there any languages that do something like this?
User avatar
gestaltist
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1617
Joined: 11 Feb 2015 11:23

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by gestaltist »

this_is_an_account wrote: 14 Aug 2018 06:40 Hello! This is my first question here. I have an idea for noun declensions that don't change the inflexional affixes of nouns (so a noun in declension 1 would take identical case markings and number markings as a noun in declension 2), but instead would affect what derivational markings a noun got (so a noun in declension 1 would take a different diminutive marker or collective marker than a noun in declension 2). Are there any languages that do something like this?
I haven't heard of any language that'd do something like this. That said, I don't see why not - but I wouldn't call those declensions. The divide here would likely be semantic-based (perhaps gender?).
Porphyrogenitos
sinic
sinic
Posts: 401
Joined: 21 Jul 2012 08:01
Location: Buffalo, NY

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

English does various things like this with different derivational endings - some can't be applied to just any word, and sometimes there are two with equivalent meaning that attach to words under different phonological or semantic conditions. E.g. (I can't think of a really good example offhand) we have China > Chinese, but no China > Chinan - and in fact I would say that "Chinan" is disallowed. It's not always hard-and-fast, though. So yeah I'd say this is possible, but I wouldn't call it "declension" since that's generally about inflection. Maybe call them "derivational classes"?
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4080
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

gestaltist wrote: 14 Aug 2018 08:29
this_is_an_account wrote: 14 Aug 2018 06:40 Hello! This is my first question here. I have an idea for noun declensions that don't change the inflexional affixes of nouns (so a noun in declension 1 would take identical case markings and number markings as a noun in declension 2), but instead would affect what derivational markings a noun got (so a noun in declension 1 would take a different diminutive marker or collective marker than a noun in declension 2). Are there any languages that do something like this?
I haven't heard of any language that'd do something like this. That said, I don't see why not - but I wouldn't call those declensions. The divide here would likely be semantic-based (perhaps gender?).
As far as I know, declension means an inflectional paradigm of nouns. But of course there are different kinds of stems for attaching derivational endings.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
this_is_an_account
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 143
Joined: 14 Aug 2018 06:33

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by this_is_an_account »

Derivational class is probably the best name for it, and since I do happen to have grammatical gender, I'll base it off of that. Also, would it be weird for some nouns to be irregular and take some or all of their derivational affixes from a different class? How about some derivations applying to all nouns regardless of gender?
User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6352
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

this_is_an_account wrote: 14 Aug 2018 19:04 Derivational class is probably the best name for it, and since I do happen to have grammatical gender, I'll base it off of that. Also, would it be weird for some nouns to be irregular and take some or all of their derivational affixes from a different class? How about some derivations applying to all nouns regardless of gender?
IMO all of that would be realistic and naturalistic.
QuantumWraith
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 188
Joined: 20 Mar 2012 22:46

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by QuantumWraith »

In a language with a phonetic inventory of [m m̥ n n̥ t tʰ k kʰ s h l l̥ r r̥ j j̥ w w̥] in which all sequences are phonetically CV, is it more appropriate to analyze a sequence such as [m̥a] as /m̥a/ or /mha/? Perhaps more to the root of my question is: must a language have clusters of some consonant plus some approximant before it can be considered to have clusters at all?
"Peace...? No peace!"
User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6352
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

QuantumWraith wrote: 15 Aug 2018 04:10 In a language with a phonetic inventory of [m m̥ n n̥ t tʰ k kʰ s h l l̥ r r̥ j j̥ w w̥] in which all sequences are phonetically CV, is it more appropriate to analyze a sequence such as [m̥a] as /m̥a/ or /mha/? Perhaps more to the root of my question is: must a language have clusters of some consonant plus some approximant before it can be considered to have clusters at all?
I’m pretty sure that’s for you to say.
We won’t know until you tell us.
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 3283
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 04:06

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov »

Ælfwine wrote: 14 Aug 2018 04:47
Shemtov wrote: 14 Aug 2018 04:04 Would an althistory where the Romans conquered part of Ireland, which had or has a Romance language competing in those parts with Gaelic work?
I don't see why not. OTL the Irish were very much influenced by Rome, even though they never spoke Latin.
Are people willing to do a collablang of this? I want this, but I can't do a full a posteriori conlang without going nuts/ overestimating/ underestimating the change.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2945
Joined: 10 Nov 2012 20:52
Location: California

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 »

QuantumWraith wrote: 15 Aug 2018 04:10 In a language with a phonetic inventory of [m m̥ n n̥ t tʰ k kʰ s h l l̥ r r̥ j j̥ w w̥] in which all sequences are phonetically CV, is it more appropriate to analyze a sequence such as [m̥a] as /m̥a/ or /mha/? Perhaps more to the root of my question is: must a language have clusters of some consonant plus some approximant before it can be considered to have clusters at all?
The answer to the root of your question is no. A language must have clusters of some consonant and some consonant to have clusters. The exact natures of these consonants are unimportant on a non-language-specific level. That said, there may be some combinations that are considered consonant clusters in some languages but not in others, depending on the details of the phonology (Is [tj] a consonant cluster or a consonant followed by a semivowel?).

Your question on [m̥a] is difficult to answer without more information. Does [m̥] only emerge from a sequence of [m] and [h]? If so, the /mh/ analysis makes more sense. If [m̥] can also appear in other contexts, it is probably better analyzed as its own phoneme, /m̥/.
User avatar
Pabappa
greek
greek
Posts: 577
Joined: 18 Nov 2017 02:41

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa »

I would simplify and just analyze /h/ as an independent part of the syllable. A language with just one type of cluster still has clust3rs. The only asymmetry is /s/ .... was there ever a /sh/?
Kavunupupis, šiŋuputata.
When I see you pointing at me, I know I'm in trouble. (Play)
yangfiretiger121
sinic
sinic
Posts: 337
Joined: 17 Jun 2018 03:04

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

Would dentalization of alveolars, such as /n → n̪/ interfere with the interchangeability of alveolars with retroflexes, such as /n~ɳ/?
Alien conlangs (Font may be needed for Vai symbols)
User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2945
Joined: 10 Nov 2012 20:52
Location: California

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 »

Pabappa wrote: 15 Aug 2018 05:41 I would simplify and just analyze /h/ as an independent part of the syllable. A language with just one type of cluster still has clust3rs. The only asymmetry is /s/ .... was there ever a /sh/?
I interpret the language as having phonemic clusters as well. I took "all sequences are phonetically CV" to allow for the possibility that all phonemic consonant clusters allophonically coalesce.
Ælfwine
roman
roman
Posts: 940
Joined: 21 Sep 2015 01:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine »

Shemtov wrote: 15 Aug 2018 04:55
Ælfwine wrote: 14 Aug 2018 04:47
Shemtov wrote: 14 Aug 2018 04:04 Would an althistory where the Romans conquered part of Ireland, which had or has a Romance language competing in those parts with Gaelic work?
I don't see why not. OTL the Irish were very much influenced by Rome, even though they never spoke Latin.
Are people willing to do a collablang of this? I want this, but I can't do a full a posteriori conlang without going nuts/ overestimating/ underestimating the change.
I can definitely help.
My Blog

A-posteriori, alternative history nerd
yangfiretiger121
sinic
sinic
Posts: 337
Joined: 17 Jun 2018 03:04

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

Is it acoustically possible to trill /ɕ ʑ/?
Alien conlangs (Font may be needed for Vai symbols)
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

Isn't the second one the Czech r?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
yangfiretiger121
sinic
sinic
Posts: 337
Joined: 17 Jun 2018 03:04

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

Wikipedia describes it as "sounding a little like a simultaneous [r] and [ʐ] (or [r̥] and [ʂ] when devoiced)," which means it could be a retroflex (native speaker, please help).

Do I need to include purely allophonic sounds in a language's IPA chart? For example, A'atun's chart currently includes the uvulars (/ɴ/, etc.) but lists them as allophones.
Alien conlangs (Font may be needed for Vai symbols)
Locked