He probably said he was Ashkenazi - which means he's a Jew whose family comes from Europe - since that's their custom.eldin raigmore wrote: ↑01 Aug 2023 18:01
I once spoke to a Jewish man who had a daughter with a somewhat unusual name beginning with D.
He said that in their sect of Judaism a child should be named after a deceased relative.
Or rather beginning with the same first letter as the name of a deceased relative.
I said I had heard that they shouldn’t be named after a living relative, but it was news to me that they should be named after a deceased relative!
Naming Practices
Re: Naming Practices
This whole business is very well thought-out!
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Naming Practices
May I just mention that I am intrigued/interested by everyone else’s posts so far in this thread?
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Naming Practices
Correction Concerning Individual Anthroponyms in Adpihi and Reptigan
A boy’s first individual name will (if possible) be copied from that of one of his father’s grandfathers or uncles.
In particular, that father’s first son will be first-named after that father’s father’s father;
that father’s second son will be first-named after that father’s mother’s father;
that father’s third son will usually be first-named after that father’s father’s oldest brother;
that father’s fourth son will usually be first-named after that father’s mother’s oldest brother;
and so on.
This means that any line of fathers-and-first-sons will rotate through a cycle of three first individual names.
A girl’s first individual name will (if possible) be copied from that of one of her mother’s grandmothers or aunts.
In particular, that mother’s first daughter will be first-named after that mother’s mother’s mother;
that mother’s second daughter will be first-named after that mother’s father’s mother;
that mother’s third daughter will usually be first-named after that mother’s mother’s oldest sister;
that mother’s fourth daughter will usually be first-named after that mother’s father’s oldest sister;
and so on.
This means that any line of mothers-and-first-daughters will rotate through a cycle of three first individual names.
….
A boy’s second individual name will (if possible) be copied from that of one of his mother’s great-grandfathers or granduncles.
In particular, that mother’s first son will be second-named after that mother’s father’s mother’s father;
that mother’s second son will be second-named after that mother’s mother’s mother’s father;
that mother’s third son will be second-named after that mother’s father’s father’s father;
that mother’s fourth son will be second-named after that mother’s mother’s father’s father;
and so on.
A girl’s second individual name will (if possible) be copied from that of one of her father’s great-grandmothers or grandaunts.
In particular, that father’s first daughter will be second-named after that father’s mother’s father’s mother;
that father’s second daughter will be second-named after that father’s father’s father’s mother;
that father’s third daughter will be second-named after that father’s mother’s mother’s mother;
that father’s fourth daughter will be second-named after that father’s father’s mother’s mother;
and so on.
That means that a line of alternating mothers-and-first-sons and fathers-and-first-daughters, will rotate through a cycle of four second individual names.
….
There are more details to cover the cases where there aren’t enough relatives of the appropriate generation, or there are (or would be) too many duplicates in the child’s generation, or some relative has deceased or is very old or near death, or some name is in danger of disappearing from some clan’s inventory of individual names, etc.
A boy’s first individual name will (if possible) be copied from that of one of his father’s grandfathers or uncles.
In particular, that father’s first son will be first-named after that father’s father’s father;
that father’s second son will be first-named after that father’s mother’s father;
that father’s third son will usually be first-named after that father’s father’s oldest brother;
that father’s fourth son will usually be first-named after that father’s mother’s oldest brother;
and so on.
This means that any line of fathers-and-first-sons will rotate through a cycle of three first individual names.
A girl’s first individual name will (if possible) be copied from that of one of her mother’s grandmothers or aunts.
In particular, that mother’s first daughter will be first-named after that mother’s mother’s mother;
that mother’s second daughter will be first-named after that mother’s father’s mother;
that mother’s third daughter will usually be first-named after that mother’s mother’s oldest sister;
that mother’s fourth daughter will usually be first-named after that mother’s father’s oldest sister;
and so on.
This means that any line of mothers-and-first-daughters will rotate through a cycle of three first individual names.
….
A boy’s second individual name will (if possible) be copied from that of one of his mother’s great-grandfathers or granduncles.
In particular, that mother’s first son will be second-named after that mother’s father’s mother’s father;
that mother’s second son will be second-named after that mother’s mother’s mother’s father;
that mother’s third son will be second-named after that mother’s father’s father’s father;
that mother’s fourth son will be second-named after that mother’s mother’s father’s father;
and so on.
A girl’s second individual name will (if possible) be copied from that of one of her father’s great-grandmothers or grandaunts.
In particular, that father’s first daughter will be second-named after that father’s mother’s father’s mother;
that father’s second daughter will be second-named after that father’s father’s father’s mother;
that father’s third daughter will be second-named after that father’s mother’s mother’s mother;
that father’s fourth daughter will be second-named after that father’s father’s mother’s mother;
and so on.
That means that a line of alternating mothers-and-first-sons and fathers-and-first-daughters, will rotate through a cycle of four second individual names.
….
There are more details to cover the cases where there aren’t enough relatives of the appropriate generation, or there are (or would be) too many duplicates in the child’s generation, or some relative has deceased or is very old or near death, or some name is in danger of disappearing from some clan’s inventory of individual names, etc.
Last edited by eldin raigmore on 03 Nov 2023 07:24, edited 2 times in total.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Naming Practices
Yesterday I learned the difference between a matronymic and a matriname, and between a patronymic and a patriname.
The *atronymics are based on the personal, individual, “given” or “Christian” or “first” name of one’s parent.
The *atrinames are the family-names or clan-names or line-names of one’s parent(s).
So, patronymics (for example) won’t persist more than one generation.
Although patrinames, for example, will persist as long as at least one of the men in each generation has at least one son.
Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putin’s father was named Vladimir X-ovitch Putin.
That father wasn’t named (some name) Vladimirovitch Putin unless his own father was named Vladimir.
I don’t know if Russian families have a good way of saying Vladimir the Third or Vladimir the Fourth or whatever.
Likewise a matronymic won’t persist more than one generation; but a matriname will persist as long as the women in the line or clan keep having daughters.
The *atronymics are based on the personal, individual, “given” or “Christian” or “first” name of one’s parent.
The *atrinames are the family-names or clan-names or line-names of one’s parent(s).
So, patronymics (for example) won’t persist more than one generation.
Although patrinames, for example, will persist as long as at least one of the men in each generation has at least one son.
Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putin’s father was named Vladimir X-ovitch Putin.
That father wasn’t named (some name) Vladimirovitch Putin unless his own father was named Vladimir.
I don’t know if Russian families have a good way of saying Vladimir the Third or Vladimir the Fourth or whatever.
Likewise a matronymic won’t persist more than one generation; but a matriname will persist as long as the women in the line or clan keep having daughters.
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
Re: Naming Practices
That makes sense.eldin raigmore wrote: ↑06 Apr 2018 08:00I have been reading “The Namesake ” by some famous young Bengali authoress. Apparently Bengali children are given a “pet name“ while still pretty young. This name may be lighthearted or meaningless. This is the name that the child is called en famille and by any intimate acquaintance in private for their entire life. A child is not given a “good name“ until they have to register for school. This name is chosen very seriously by consulting the child’s parents’ elders. It is the name they are called in public; it is the name that is written on all documents; and so on. An example given by the authoress, is that If the child’s grandmother in Kolkata writes a letter to the Child in Boston, the envelope will carry the child’s “good name” , while the body of the letter itself will call the child by the child’s “pet name”.elemtilas wrote: ↑26 Nov 2017 03:23So, I'm interested in these less formal names. What is implied by "may not carry the same connotation"? I guess a question that seeks answer to what kind of nickname *here* are you talking about? What cultural milieu? Why a/o why not might these compare crossworldwise? In other words, what dó Adpihians and Reptiganders mean by "nickname"?eldin raigmore wrote: ↑26 Nov 2017 02:57 (There are also "nicknames", a bit more formal than *our* "nicknames", but a bit more free-form then *their* "formal names".)
Do people acquire new names from going through adulthood/marriage rituals? Yes, and/or other events; some by their own choice. These are all grouped under the term "nicknames"; which may not carry exactly the same connotation that "nickname" does in our culture.
What I called the “Nickname” given (on Adpihi) to a baby boy by his father’s mother or to a baby girl by her mother‘s father, corresponds to the Bengali “pet name“. On the other hand, the two-part formal individual name inherited from the child’s (sometimes collateral) ancestors, which I called the “formal individual name”, corresponds to the Bengali “good name”.
I think a number of Americans end up with a similar or parallel situation. A sort of in group name vs out group name. Some in group names are for family & intimates only, while others might be used by friends and school mates and army buddies.
I like how the Adiphians pet name is given by the grandparents. The natural spoilers of said child (assuming Adiphians spoil their grandchildren!)!
How does one "inherit" a name? Who do they inherit from and how is this name chosen from among all the ancestors?
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Naming Practices
@elemtilas:
Read
below.
…. Would you like to hear more about the contingencies? ….
(What to do if strict obedience to the system would require you to name your kid
after a direct-lineal-or-collateral ancestor/ancestress who
is already deceased,
or is old and probably will be deceased soon,
or already has more than two namesake descendants,
or was never born; or etc. if I forgot anything.)
Most parents usually already have some vague notion what to name their first nine sons and their first nine daughters.
Since even at their most prolific the Adpihi settlers and pioneers typically had a max of six or seven children, that “nine” is almost always more than enough.
The only rules that are hard-and-fast are about how to name a first daughter or a first son.
….
That might already be too long!
The contingencies probably would (I think) take about the same amount of text as the above.
See
Read
eldin raigmore wrote: ↑26 Sep 2023 21:05 Re: Naming Practices
Post by eldin raigmore » Tue 26 Sep 2023, 14:05
Correction Concerning Individual Anthroponyms in Adpihi and Reptigan
below.
…. Would you like to hear more about the contingencies? ….
(What to do if strict obedience to the system would require you to name your kid
after a direct-lineal-or-collateral ancestor/ancestress who
is already deceased,
or is old and probably will be deceased soon,
or already has more than two namesake descendants,
or was never born; or etc. if I forgot anything.)
Most parents usually already have some vague notion what to name their first nine sons and their first nine daughters.
Since even at their most prolific the Adpihi settlers and pioneers typically had a max of six or seven children, that “nine” is almost always more than enough.
The only rules that are hard-and-fast are about how to name a first daughter or a first son.
Spoiler:
That might already be too long!
The contingencies probably would (I think) take about the same amount of text as the above.
See
eldin raigmore wrote: ↑01 Aug 2023 18:01 I’ve tinkered with the system of giving children their first and second individual names so as to keep names from dying out of a clan, in so far as that is possible.Spoiler:
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
Re: Naming Practices
Woe to the tenth child, for he shall be Nameless.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Naming Practices
Not really!
If the (say) tenth-or-later son’s father has enough uncles, and the son’s mother has enough granduncles, they can just continue the pattern already established, as long as they don’t duplicate a name of the father or an older brother.
Or, they can copy names from other male relatives in their clan, who don’t already have enough namesakes.
Otherwise, they can shift to the names of the other parent’s uncles or granduncles.
Or, they can use names from friends, or historical figures, whom they admire.
They can even use names from fictional characters whom they admire.
I do want the son’s names to come from the appropriate pool of 143 acceptable masculine first names and 143 acceptable masculine second names!
But any particular parent is unlikely, in my opinion, to have more than 23 sons! So, even if their parents and grandparents all had more than 23 brothers, they could choose an acceptable name without duplicating the name of any too-close relatives.
….
In RL someone had 69 children; all twins and triplets. Suppose 34 of them had been sons. Then that parent might not have been able to come up with a unique name for the youngest few sons! Unless they just made up a name that wasn’t in the pool of acceptable names!
I really seriously doubt anyone will have 20 or more sons and 20 or more daughters.
….
Even assuming a couple lives in the ideal circumstances for conceiving and bearing children and keeping them all alive for at least ten years, they usually won’t have more than six or seven. Unless most births were triplets, and one or two were quads, they won’t have more than 20 kids.
….
Culturally a parent plans for the possibility of having nine sons and nine daughters, pretty much as soon as their first child has clearly been conceived. But this is a cultural habit of over-preparing; like always saving two years worth of nonperishable food, or keeping a fallout shelter capable of supporting the entire family, plus one more person, for two years, or always preparing enough of each dish at each meal to feed everyone expected plus one more unexpected, or always setting one extra place at the table. Or, for that matter, taking out an insurance policy!
By the time a parent’s fifth son or fifth daughter is born, it probably dawns on them that they just might wind up needing more than nine names, and start thinking of some.
Thanks for the prompt!
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Re: Naming Practices
The Ruins Cats designate a word/sign as a name by adding a special name suffix "-mr". Kittens are named at birth (if they die in infancy the name may be reused for a future litter). Sky-gender (firstborn-of-a-litter) cats are named after sky-associated nouns, such as types of weather, trees, or birds; earth-gender (non-firstborn) cats are named for earth-associated nouns (ex. ground animals, low plants, types of terrain) whose color/pattern they resemble, and have the fur-color suffix {Dc} (ruins cat sign language notation for quickly licking one's own chest fur) in their names, coarticulated with the verbal "-mr".
Re: Naming Practices
In Tesazo society, most people only have one name, which we would consider to be equivalent to a given name. Names are commonly composed of compounds of two nouns, usually ones with neutral or desirable connotations, though it's still fairly common to just have a one-word name. These names usually come from nature, though not always
Lezi-tkär
river-frost.spirit
T'ei-lü
sauna-bird
Am
plum
There isn't a typical stock of names (similar to Chinese naming practices) so most names are not very strongly gendered. However, some men, especially firstborn sons, are given names which are a predicate phrase -- these have a very masculine connotation.
Sara-ni-pol
sick-one-heal
"(He) heals the sick."
Hõ-hõg
fire-bring
"(He) brings fire."
Surnames are very rare, and almost exclusive to members of the nobility who command duchies, counties, or other subdivisions under their control*. For those, it's common to be given a "land name," which usually refers to either their personal estates or to the ancestor responsible for gaining the noble title. These names precede the given name.
Päle-nuyis
reindeer-creek
(This one is descriptive of the large estate).
Mali
boulder
(This is one is the same as the given name of the ancestor who acquired the title).
These "land names" only are given to people who own or could inherit the land. In most cases, this is the firstborn son of the estate's owner, but notably different tracts of land have different inheritance rules, dating back to antiquity in some cases. In many cases, especially in the south, estates follow a matrilineal inheritance pattern. Other rules exist too. For example, the Dukedom of Mali requires that the firstborn child, regardless of gender, inherits; as the Dukes of Mali are also the current ruling dynasty, the current ruler is a queen regnant. It's possible to inherit multiple land names from different branches of the family in this way.
*This is not quite a feudal pattern, as the nobility don't own all of the land they control politically.
Lezi-tkär
river-frost.spirit
T'ei-lü
sauna-bird
Am
plum
There isn't a typical stock of names (similar to Chinese naming practices) so most names are not very strongly gendered. However, some men, especially firstborn sons, are given names which are a predicate phrase -- these have a very masculine connotation.
Sara-ni-pol
sick-one-heal
"(He) heals the sick."
Hõ-hõg
fire-bring
"(He) brings fire."
Surnames are very rare, and almost exclusive to members of the nobility who command duchies, counties, or other subdivisions under their control*. For those, it's common to be given a "land name," which usually refers to either their personal estates or to the ancestor responsible for gaining the noble title. These names precede the given name.
Päle-nuyis
reindeer-creek
(This one is descriptive of the large estate).
Mali
boulder
(This is one is the same as the given name of the ancestor who acquired the title).
These "land names" only are given to people who own or could inherit the land. In most cases, this is the firstborn son of the estate's owner, but notably different tracts of land have different inheritance rules, dating back to antiquity in some cases. In many cases, especially in the south, estates follow a matrilineal inheritance pattern. Other rules exist too. For example, the Dukedom of Mali requires that the firstborn child, regardless of gender, inherits; as the Dukes of Mali are also the current ruling dynasty, the current ruler is a queen regnant. It's possible to inherit multiple land names from different branches of the family in this way.
*This is not quite a feudal pattern, as the nobility don't own all of the land they control politically.
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Re: Naming Practices
At birth, a Ruykkarranat person has two names: a family name and a given name, in that order. As they become members of other families (biological or not), they may gain more. However, a name is never lost unless a person leaves that family. Names are in chronological order, with the newest name first and the given name last.
Given names usually do not have transparent etymologies, as in English, and some are made up entirely. Usually, a certain name is indicative of an area and related group and is passed down (usually skipping two generations so that no two living people have the same given name). The given name structure is similar to that of many Coast Salish societies (you know I love em).
It’s rare to have more than two or three people who share a name, and they are usually far separated from one another. However, within a birth family, names are commonly passed down, skipping two generations, as stated above.
One’s birth family name is the same as that of their siblings, but not their parents. Family names are made of two parts (a noun and an adjective), and children take their mother’s adjective and father’s noun. Traditionally, one may not marry anyone who shares either segment.
Given names usually do not have transparent etymologies, as in English, and some are made up entirely. Usually, a certain name is indicative of an area and related group and is passed down (usually skipping two generations so that no two living people have the same given name). The given name structure is similar to that of many Coast Salish societies (you know I love em).
It’s rare to have more than two or three people who share a name, and they are usually far separated from one another. However, within a birth family, names are commonly passed down, skipping two generations, as stated above.
One’s birth family name is the same as that of their siblings, but not their parents. Family names are made of two parts (a noun and an adjective), and children take their mother’s adjective and father’s noun. Traditionally, one may not marry anyone who shares either segment.
Proud member of the myopic-trans-southerner-Viossa-girl-with-two-cats-who-joined-on-September-6th-2022 gang
2c2ef0 Ruykkarraber family Areyaxi family Arskiilz Kahóra Makihip-ŋAħual family Abisj
my garbage
she/her
2c2ef0 Ruykkarraber family Areyaxi family Arskiilz Kahóra Makihip-ŋAħual family Abisjmy garbage
she/her
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Naming Practices
One Jewish group in the US of America has a custom that a child must be given a name that matches* the given name of a deceased relative. *(First letter only is OK; the rest of the name may or may not match.) [citation needed, but I don’t have one!]
I was thinking that, in concultures like my Adpihi and Reptigan, that if a child’s name must at least partially match that of some relative, maybe it is only required to have the same first syllable and the same last syllable?
Or even, required that the child’s name’s first syllable have the same body (onset+nucleus; all except the coda) as the first syllable of the namesake relative’s name, and the child’s name’s last syllable have the same rime (nucleus+coda; all but the onset) of the last syllable of the namesake relative’s name?
(Note that we would be working with phonemes rather than letters!)
For instance if a girl were going to be given a name like her Aunt Debra’s, she might be named Delilah. (Assuming the /h/ in the latter name is silent!)
Or if a boy were going to be given a name “after his Uncle Benjamin”, he might be named, I dunno, something like Beckorin, if there’s such a name?
What does anyone think of this kind of idea?
Edit: and can’t be the name of a living relative!
I was thinking that, in concultures like my Adpihi and Reptigan, that if a child’s name must at least partially match that of some relative, maybe it is only required to have the same first syllable and the same last syllable?
Or even, required that the child’s name’s first syllable have the same body (onset+nucleus; all except the coda) as the first syllable of the namesake relative’s name, and the child’s name’s last syllable have the same rime (nucleus+coda; all but the onset) of the last syllable of the namesake relative’s name?
(Note that we would be working with phonemes rather than letters!)
For instance if a girl were going to be given a name like her Aunt Debra’s, she might be named Delilah. (Assuming the /h/ in the latter name is silent!)
Or if a boy were going to be given a name “after his Uncle Benjamin”, he might be named, I dunno, something like Beckorin, if there’s such a name?
What does anyone think of this kind of idea?
Last edited by eldin raigmore on 13 Feb 2024 15:49, edited 2 times in total.
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
Re: Naming Practices
It's a good idea.
Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necronym
Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necronym
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Naming Practices
Thanks! I read it; it’s an interesting resource!
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Re: Naming Practices
It's quite an interesting time for this thread to pop up again, since I'm preparing both linguistic and religious infodumps on the Zeigouŋdeizese language and spirituality, and was unsure where to put naming practices.
Zeigouŋdeizese people have at least Three Names at birth, and gain a Fourth sometime into adulthood: The Matronymic, The Given Name, and the Patronymic, with the addition of the Vocational Name.
The Matronymic is the Mother's name in the inalienable genitive.
The Given Name is given by having the Mother discuss her dreams, experiences, and any Familial Deaths that happened during the pregnancy with a Clergywomen, who will present the parents with a list of 3-5 names that Mother and Father need to agree on. These will be based on any motifs that showed up in the Mother's dreams during the pregnancy, unusual things she kept noticing during the pregnancy, food craving brought on by the pregnancy, or the name of a relative of the newborn who died during the pregnancy. This will be prefixed with Aa(h)- for sons and Izi()- for daughters.
For example, if the mother had a pica to eat uncooked rice when pregnant with a son, he could be named Aaheŋ.(Eŋ meaning "Raw Rice") If Aaheŋ's brother's wife was pregnent with a daughter when he passed, that daughter might be named Izeŋ, even if Aaheŋ's sister-in-law had no such pica while pregnant with Izeŋ.
The Patronymic is the Father's name in the alienable genitive.
The Vocational name is the name of the Vocation the person takes upon reaching adulthood. This may be expanded upon, since Zeigouŋdeizese Government is a Guild-Based Oligarchic Republic, one's position in the Guild may be noted in the Vocational name. Furthermore, since the Clergy are considered outside of the Guild system (note that this does not mean "separation of Church and State", since an individual Guild will be patrons of multiple schools of Zeigouŋdeizese Spirituality, who in exchange, will send "Spiritual Advisors" who have some power within the Guild, sometimes influencing who will be the Guild Leaders, and thus, who will serve on the Zeigouŋdeizese Governing Council) a Clergyperson will have their exact position in the Spiritual Hierarchy noted in His or Her Vocational name.
Zeigouŋdeizese people have at least Three Names at birth, and gain a Fourth sometime into adulthood: The Matronymic, The Given Name, and the Patronymic, with the addition of the Vocational Name.
The Matronymic is the Mother's name in the inalienable genitive.
The Given Name is given by having the Mother discuss her dreams, experiences, and any Familial Deaths that happened during the pregnancy with a Clergywomen, who will present the parents with a list of 3-5 names that Mother and Father need to agree on. These will be based on any motifs that showed up in the Mother's dreams during the pregnancy, unusual things she kept noticing during the pregnancy, food craving brought on by the pregnancy, or the name of a relative of the newborn who died during the pregnancy. This will be prefixed with Aa(h)- for sons and Izi()- for daughters.
For example, if the mother had a pica to eat uncooked rice when pregnant with a son, he could be named Aaheŋ.(Eŋ meaning "Raw Rice") If Aaheŋ's brother's wife was pregnent with a daughter when he passed, that daughter might be named Izeŋ, even if Aaheŋ's sister-in-law had no such pica while pregnant with Izeŋ.
The Patronymic is the Father's name in the alienable genitive.
The Vocational name is the name of the Vocation the person takes upon reaching adulthood. This may be expanded upon, since Zeigouŋdeizese Government is a Guild-Based Oligarchic Republic, one's position in the Guild may be noted in the Vocational name. Furthermore, since the Clergy are considered outside of the Guild system (note that this does not mean "separation of Church and State", since an individual Guild will be patrons of multiple schools of Zeigouŋdeizese Spirituality, who in exchange, will send "Spiritual Advisors" who have some power within the Guild, sometimes influencing who will be the Guild Leaders, and thus, who will serve on the Zeigouŋdeizese Governing Council) a Clergyperson will have their exact position in the Spiritual Hierarchy noted in His or Her Vocational name.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
-JRR Tolkien