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PostPosted: Sat 28 Apr 2012, 19:48 
greek
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Jon mii rjo, own sxojù jon faj ìzolejtin, dow jon pupùu zjown, own ʃìux skjo jùx ìzolejtin om ròwʃiu xow, sku xa skjo ʃìux skjo sxojù jon om xàfa si djonu xa to. Sxojù jon faj zjown no? Nèxa rowskòw faj rjow xo.
I thought that my conlang is isolating, but then I read that words in isolating languages have few morphemes, and many of the words in my conlang have two or more roots. What is my conlang then? The only declension is for number.


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PostPosted: Sat 28 Apr 2012, 20:48 
roman
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provide a gloss, duh [>_<]


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PostPosted: Sat 28 Apr 2012, 20:55 
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sorry
Jon mii rjo, own sxojù jon faj ìzolejtin, dow jon pupùu zjown, own ʃìux skjo jùx ìzolejtin om ròwʃiu xow, sku xa skjo ʃìux skjo sxojù jon om xàfa si djonu xa to. Sxojù jon faj zjown no? Nèxa rowskòw faj rjow xo.
I think PAST-TENSE-PART, that construction.language I stay isolating, but I see-text then, that word.PL of language.PL isolating have piece.word little, and many of word.PL of construction.language I have branch.earth two and.QUESTION-PART many COMPARATIVE-PART. Construction.language I stay then what? Movement.branch piece.last stay for number.
I thought that my conlang is isolating, but then I read that words in isolating languages have few morphemes, and many of the words in my conlang have two or more roots. What is my conlang then? The only declension is for number.
note: skjo has a partitive meaning, but I couldnt think of more exact equivalent than of


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PostPosted: Sat 28 Apr 2012, 21:21 
mayan
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You may be using compounds, which are in fact pervasive in many isolating languages, such as Vietnamese (although not all;English isn't particularly rich in compounds, and yet is still moderately isolating.)

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PostPosted: Sat 28 Apr 2012, 21:50 
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Your language doesn't have to be purely isolating in order to be an isolating language. From what I can see, it looks like something similar to English, which has both isolating and agglutinating features. Compounding is fine, as in the aforementioned Vietnamese. And just like not every ergative language is the ergative ideal (Basque notwithstanding), not every isolating language is the isolating ideal.

Have you listened to the latest episode of Conlangery? It has tips for isolating languages.

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PostPosted: Sat 28 Apr 2012, 23:11 
roman
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mbrsart wrote:
Your language doesn't have to be purely isolating in order to be an isolating language. From what I can see, it looks like something similar to English, which has both isolating and agglutinating features. Compounding is fine, as in the aforementioned Vietnamese. And just like not every ergative language is the ergative ideal (Basque notwithstanding), not every isolating language is the isolating ideal.

Have you listened to the latest episode of Conlangery? It has tips for isolating languages.

Do you know what notwithstanding means?


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PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr 2012, 08:01 
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Systemzwang wrote:
Do you know what notwithstanding means?


Matter of fact, yes I do.

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PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr 2012, 20:38 
roman
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mbrsart wrote:
Systemzwang wrote:
Do you know what notwithstanding means?


Matter of fact, yes I do.


If so, your post doesn't make much sense.


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PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2012, 18:43 
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Actually, his sentence makes perfect sense, so all you've achieved is making yourself is making yourself look like an ass.

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PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2012, 20:54 
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Chagen wrote:
Actually, his sentence makes perfect sense, so all you've achieved is making yourself is making yourself look like an ass.

I suspect he was suggesting Basque is not an ergative ideal (I know little about Basque, so I'm voicing no opinion on that claim either way).

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PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2012, 21:24 
sinic
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As far as I can tell I used it correctly. Basque is, to my knowledge, an example of a purely ergative language; thus, the ergative ideal. And in spite of (read: notwithstanding) Basque, not all ergative languages are the ergative ideal.

But back to isolating languages, I'm currently working on an isolating language, and it's hard to go for the ideal: monosyllabic words, relatively simple morphology, no real declensions, etc. If your language is highly isolating or just mostly isolating, I would still call it isolating.

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PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2012, 21:49 
roman
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mbrsart wrote:
As far as I can tell I used it correctly. Basque is, to my knowledge, an example of a purely ergative language; thus, the ergative ideal. And in spite of (read: notwithstanding) Basque, not all ergative languages are the ergative ideal.

But back to isolating languages, I'm currently working on an isolating language, and it's hard to go for the ideal: monosyllabic words, relatively simple morphology, no real declensions, etc. If your language is highly isolating or just mostly isolating, I would still call it isolating.

Then you're wrong. Basque is not the ergative ideal, and in fact far from it. (See, your correct use of notwithstanding helped me disabuse you of a mistaken notion regarding Basque, who'd've thunk! However, I favour assuming people know things more accurately than they know how to use words, and therefore tend to err on the side of guessing that someone's using words wrong rather than erring on the side of assuming they are wrong about facts.)


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PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2012, 22:04 
sinic
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Systemzwang wrote:
Then you're wrong. Basque is not the ergative ideal, and in fact far from it.

Then maybe I should read about it instead of relying on what I hear others saying next time. :P I wish I had more time to do these things.

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PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2012, 22:24 
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I'd like to see more isolating conlangs with some polysyllabic roots instead of tones.

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PostPosted: Thu 17 May 2012, 01:29 
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Skógvur wrote:
I'd like to see more isolating conlangs with some polysyllabic roots instead of tones.

With an average number of consonants (20) and an average number of vowels (5), a language could have 10,000 CVCV roots or 1,000,000 CVCVCV roots or 4,000,000 CVCCVC roots.

If roots could take any of the forms CVCVC CCVCV VCCVC CVCCV VCVCC, there could be 5*20,000 = 1,000,000 of them.

There are natlangs whose roots almost all are CVCV in form; many Polynesian languages, for instance.
Edit: There are other natlangs whose roots almost all are CVCVC in form; at least one Native North American language, for instance. If such a language were to have average numbers of vowels and consonants, it could have around 200,000 roots.






OTOH you're asking for polysyllabic roots in an isolating conlang.

In an isolating analytic language every word has only one morpheme. So you might as well say that the word's only morpheme is its root morphome.

Maybe you'd want to call the verbs and nouns and adjectives, and maybe also the adverbs, "roots", and let them be polysyllabic. "Polysyllabic" may mean up to three syllables; or it may mean only up to two syllables.

Conjunctions, and probably adpositions, and likely pronouns, and maybe also adverbs, might be "particles" instead. Maybe you'd want most of them to be shorter.

There'd be many minor parts-of-speech. There'd probably be a hell of a lot of auxiliaries, for instance; these would also be "particles". There'd also be articles and quantifiers and determiners and degree-words and so on and so forth.




I don't know whether you'd allow apophony or ablaut to operate on a "root", or whether that would be a violation of isolatingness or of analyticity, or whether instead you would count that in with a "tone" system as something you'd rather avoid.

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Last edited by eldin raigmore on Fri 18 May 2012, 19:39, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 17 May 2012, 20:09 
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Some of my languages could possibly qualify as isolating - or at least analytical - while still having most words bi- och more-syllabic.

Mii is quite radically isolating. 6 consonants and 3 vowels with 2 lengths - that means 36 syllables. Or 1296 bisyllabic, or 46656 trisyllabic, words.

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PostPosted: Sat 19 May 2012, 03:27 
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Skógvur wrote:
I'd like to see more isolating conlangs with some polysyllabic roots instead of tones.

And nonpolysyllabic roots without tones?

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PostPosted: Sat 19 May 2012, 20:45 
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MrKrov wrote:
Skógvur wrote:
I'd like to see more isolating conlangs with some polysyllabic roots instead of tones.
And nonpolysyllabic roots without tones?

Without tones, it's hard to get many monosyllabic roots (or morphemes) with an average number of consonant phonemes and an average number of vowel phonemes and an average syllable-structure.

For instance suppose we have 25 consonants and 5 vowels and syllable-structure (C)(R)V(C) where R means a sonorant and there are 6 sonorants. That'd be something around 23,660 syllables. That's probably not enough; you'd probably want 30,000-50,000 at a minimum. Having two different tones could do that for you.

OTOH with a more complicated syllable-structure you could get more syllables.
(C)(C)V(C)(C) could give you 804,005 different syllables with 20 consonants and 5 vowels.

And, with a larger phoneme-inventory, you could get more syllables even with a simple syllable structure.
Suppose there are 32 consonants and 14 vowels. (C)(R)V(C) could get you 100,352 syllables.

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PostPosted: Sat 19 May 2012, 21:15 
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Your answer has nothing to do with what Skógvur would like to see more of and whether meeting one of the criteria would still be OK.

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PostPosted: Sat 19 May 2012, 21:33 
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eldin raigmore wrote:
Without tones, it's hard to get many monosyllabic roots (or morphemes) with an average number of consonant phonemes and an average number of vowel phonemes and an average syllable-structure.

For instance suppose we have 25 consonants and 5 vowels and syllable-structure (C)(R)V(C) where R means a sonorant and there are 6 sonorants. That'd be something around 23,660 syllables. That's probably not enough; you'd probably want 30,000-50,000 at a minimum. Having two different tones could do that for you.


A few thousand roots would probably be more than enough to cover the basic, everyday terminology. More specialised terminology could be handled through loanwords or compounding. Surely, you could claim that this would violate the criteria of monosyllabicity and isolation - if you interpret these criteria in the most literal sense.

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