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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Tue 15 May 2012, 04:04 
ice
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Solarius wrote:
Ogonek or tilde in nasalization?

Ogoneks for everyone.

Xing wrote:
Should I throw in pharyngeals in one of my conlangs?

I was thinking of having them in either Mii or Nibmel.

Mii has only 9 phonemes:

/a i o p t k m n l/, so it could need some more. I could have <h> representing either a voiced or a voiceless pharyngeal.

Nibmel has more phonemes - a seven-vowel system, ejectives, contrastive aspiration, and some other stuff.

Wouldn't it ruin the purpose of the numeral orthography if you added some more? Of course you could add one more, but, yeah.

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‹› · Ḿḿ Ńń Ĺĺ Śś Źź Ąą Ǫǫ Ųų Æ̨æ̨ Ǽǽ Œ̨œ̨ Œ́œ́ Ɣɣ Y̋y̋ Įį Şş Z̧z̧ θ
Āā Ēē Īī Ōō Ūū ↗ Ṭṭ C̣c̣ Łł Ḍḍ Ṣṣ Ẓẓ Ṇṇ Ŋŋ e˞ o˞ ʷ ʲ ʰ ə


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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Tue 15 May 2012, 04:22 
korean
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Should I try to revive Pazmat?

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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Tue 15 May 2012, 19:41 
runic
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Chagen wrote:
Should I try to revive Pazmat?

Would it interest you to do so?

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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2012, 01:52 
hieroglyphic
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I have been mulling over this for a while:

Mychai has case marking, and I don't like the idea of having dedicated passive constructions. How does dropping the subject from the sentence to form a passive like construction sound?

Does this happen naturally?


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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2012, 14:34 
cuneiform
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So for example an SVO clause would become VO only ?
It seems workable, except I don't think you can have a verb without some sort of subject, so your passive clause would really be Verb-Subject, where the Subject is also the Patient.
the cat eats the mouse -> is_eaten the mouse

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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2012, 18:19 
hieroglyphic
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Well, that's my point; I wanted to have a subject-less construction to move attention to the direct object.
Since Mychai has case marking, it's never really unclear what the subject or direct object are.

E.g.

Chlab-úv ithe thn-i.
Bread-ACC 2SG.NOM eat-PRS
You eat bread.

would become

Chlab-úv thn-i.
Bread-ACC eat-PRS.
Bread is eaten.

So because of the accusative marker, there is no possibility for bread to be understood as the grammatical subject. Also, the language is highly nonconfigurational so the word order has absolutely (as of yet) no real meaning.

Though if I want to include an agent in a passive construction, I could add the "instrumental" form of the pronoun/noun back into the sentence:

Chlab-úv thn-i ithe-dh.
Bread-ACC eat-PRS 2SG-INS.
The bread is eaten by you.


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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2012, 20:36 
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Tonight I tried to get nicer verb endings for my conlang Vanga by just connecting the suffixes denoting different things together in a specific order and then let the suffixes gain their final forms partially from phonological constraints when formed, partially from mutations such as allophony, ablaut and analogy, and then applied the modern pronunciation in IPA at the end.

The suffix order is as you can see number + transitivity + person + animacy/activity. The first and second person have no inanimate/stative forms. I hope the reason is obvious. Singular number has a null morpheme (-Ø-), dual has -h- and plural has -n-, for example.

So anyway, what do you guys think of this? Good? Bad? Are the affixes distinctive enough from each other (I'm okay with singular/plural being similar for some roots)? Yay or nay?

Image

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‹› · Ḿḿ Ńń Ĺĺ Śś Źź Ąą Ǫǫ Ųų Æ̨æ̨ Ǽǽ Œ̨œ̨ Œ́œ́ Ɣɣ Y̋y̋ Įį Şş Z̧z̧ θ
Āā Ēē Īī Ōō Ūū ↗ Ṭṭ C̣c̣ Łł Ḍḍ Ṣṣ Ẓẓ Ṇṇ Ŋŋ e˞ o˞ ʷ ʲ ʰ ə


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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2012, 22:20 
cuneiform
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Alomar wrote:
So because of the accusative marker, there is no possibility for bread to be understood as the grammatical subject. Also, the language is highly nonconfigurational so the word order has absolutely (as of yet) no real meaning.


Maybe in the passive construction what you have is a kind of patientive case, rather than an accusative?

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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Thu 17 May 2012, 14:52 
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Some syntax I'd like to see what you think of.

1. Distinction between transitivity and intransitivity for semantic disambiguation.

ví-z-; to beat; to hit; to pulsate

vízæuhf; she is hitting (someone/-thing) (beat-SING-3P-TRANS-ANIM)
vízæh; she fights (beat-SING-3P-INTRANS-ANIM)

vízæuhffælji; he is hitting me (beat-SING-3P-TRANS-ANIM-OBJ.1PS)
vízæhhælji; my heart ('he beats [for] me') (beat-SING-3P-INTRANS-ANIM-OBJ.1PS)

2. Inclusiveness and dual agreement despite really 1PS subject.

mi-nd-; to love
-ódo; and; too; also; with; INCLUSIVE
qǽ-; all; every

Qǽwízæhhæljódo mindyhyffælmi.
qǽ-ví<>z-[A>a]h(h)-[A>a]lji-ódo mi<>nd-[A>u]h[A>u]f(f)-[A>a]lmi
I love you with all of my heart.
all-beat-SING-3P-INTRANS-OBJ.1PS-INCL love-DUAL-1P-OBJ.2PS
"All my heart also (along with me), we both (my heart and I) love you."


At least the dual would become more useful than in many other languages.

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‹› · Ḿḿ Ńń Ĺĺ Śś Źź Ąą Ǫǫ Ųų Æ̨æ̨ Ǽǽ Œ̨œ̨ Œ́œ́ Ɣɣ Y̋y̋ Įį Şş Z̧z̧ θ
Āā Ēē Īī Ōō Ūū ↗ Ṭṭ C̣c̣ Łł Ḍḍ Ṣṣ Ẓẓ Ṇṇ Ŋŋ e˞ o˞ ʷ ʲ ʰ ə


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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Sat 19 May 2012, 16:30 
cuneiform
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Skógvur wrote:
2. Inclusiveness and dual agreement despite really 1PS subject.

mi-nd-; to love
-ódo; and; too; also; with; INCLUSIVE
qǽ-; all; every

Qǽwízæhhæljódo mindyhyffælmi.
qǽ-ví<>z-[A>a]h(h)-[A>a]lji-ódo mi<>nd-[A>u]h[A>u]f(f)-[A>a]lmi
I love you with all of my heart.
all-beat-SING-3P-INTRANS-OBJ.1PS-INCL love-DUAL-1P-OBJ.2PS
"All my heart also (along with me), we both (my heart and I) love you."


At least the dual would become more useful than in many other languages.


'With all my heart' describes the manner (or the instrument) of the verb 'love', right? I know some languages use the comitative case for the instrument, but including it in a dual pronoun looks like a good idea too.
Can you have something like : 'My-pen-and-I, we-both write a letter'?
How would you translate 'My friends and I hunt foxes with rifles and dogs'?

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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Sun 20 May 2012, 09:28 
ice
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bororo wrote:
Skógvur wrote:
2. Inclusiveness and dual agreement despite really 1PS subject.

mi-nd-; to love
-ódo; and; too; also; with; INCLUSIVE
qǽ-; all; every

Qǽwízæhhæljódo mindyhyffælmi.
qǽ-ví<>z-[A>a]h(h)-[A>a]lji-ódo mi<>nd-[A>u]h[A>u]f(f)-[A>a]lmi
I love you with all of my heart.
all-beat-SING-3P-INTRANS-OBJ.1PS-INCL love-DUAL-1P-OBJ.2PS
"All my heart also (along with me), we both (my heart and I) love you."


At least the dual would become more useful than in many other languages.


'With all my heart' describes the manner (or the instrument) of the verb 'love', right? I know some languages use the comitative case for the instrument, but including it in a dual pronoun looks like a good idea too.
Can you have something like : 'My-pen-and-I, we-both write a letter'?
How would you translate 'My friends and I hunt foxes with rifles and dogs'?

Yeah, it would be cool to extend it to a common way of doing a comitative construction, as I want to rely on verbs only and getting rid of cases.

I will get back to you with translations later.

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‹› · Ḿḿ Ńń Ĺĺ Śś Źź Ąą Ǫǫ Ųų Æ̨æ̨ Ǽǽ Œ̨œ̨ Œ́œ́ Ɣɣ Y̋y̋ Įį Şş Z̧z̧ θ
Āā Ēē Īī Ōō Ūū ↗ Ṭṭ C̣c̣ Łł Ḍḍ Ṣṣ Ẓẓ Ṇṇ Ŋŋ e˞ o˞ ʷ ʲ ʰ ə


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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2012, 21:35 
greek
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Skógvur wrote:
1. Distinction between transitivity and intransitivity for semantic disambiguation.


sounds interesting; aye.

Quote:
2. Inclusiveness and dual agreement despite really 1PS subject.


I vote Aye!

---------------------

For marking questions, should I keep sentance-final u, or replace it with a particle/suffix?

O falota u.
* pangolin Q.
A pangolin?

U falota u.
* pangolin Q.
Mr. Pangolin?

vs

U falota tzi.
* pangolin Q.
Mr. Pangolin?

vs

U falota-lalu.
* pangolin-Q.
Mr. Pangolin?


* = the start of a clause; clause-initial U is used for people.


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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2012, 04:19 
cleardarkness
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Location: /ai/ > /a:/
Which of the two options for forming desideratives is nicer? 1) Adding a complementizer after a clause and then treating that as the object of a "want" verb OR 2) compounding a verb with a "want" verb?

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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2012, 04:35 
greek
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MrKrov wrote:
Which of the two options for forming desideratives is nicer? 1) Adding a complementizer after a clause and then treating that as the object of a "want" verb OR 2) compounding a verb with a "want" verb?


No.1 is, imho. and neater.


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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2012, 19:19 
darkness
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What do you think about expressing negation by reduplication of the verb?
Examples:
Hwi laka.
I want.
Hwi laka laka.
I do not want.

BTW,how to gloss reduplication?


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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2012, 19:39 
moderator
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Check Rule #10.

Leipzig Glossing Rules wrote:
Rule 10: Reduplication

Reduplication is treated similarly to affixation, but with a tilde (instead of an ordinary hyphen) connecting the copied element to the stem.

(29) Hebrew

yerak~rak-im
green~ATT-M.PL
'greenish ones' (ATT= attenuative)

(30) Tagalog

bi~bili
IPFV~buy
'is buying'

(31) Tagalog

b<um>i~bili
<ACTFOC>IPFV~buy
'is buying' (ACTFOC = Actor focus)

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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2012, 20:46 
darkness
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Ah,thanks.
So it'll be like this. [->]
Hwi laka laka.
hwi laka~laka
1SG want~NEG

I do not want.


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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Tue 29 May 2012, 08:19 
greek
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Should the Arasamean word for "bear" be ta /tæ/, or ca /ˈhæ/ ?


(a borrowing from the Hawaiian pea)


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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Tue 29 May 2012, 14:15 
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Keenir wrote:
Should the Arasamean word for "bear" be ta /tæ/, or ca /ˈhæ/ ?


(a borrowing from the Hawaiian pea)

ca!

I'm afraid I didn't understand your previous question.

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‹› · Ḿḿ Ńń Ĺĺ Śś Źź Ąą Ǫǫ Ųų Æ̨æ̨ Ǽǽ Œ̨œ̨ Œ́œ́ Ɣɣ Y̋y̋ Įį Şş Z̧z̧ θ
Āā Ēē Īī Ōō Ūū ↗ Ṭṭ C̣c̣ Łł Ḍḍ Ṣṣ Ẓẓ Ṇṇ Ŋŋ e˞ o˞ ʷ ʲ ʰ ə


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 Post subject: Re: Yay or Nay?
PostPosted: Tue 29 May 2012, 17:21 
greek
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Skógvur wrote:
Keenir wrote:
Should the Arasamean word for "bear" be ta /tæ/, or ca /ˈhæ/ ?
(a borrowing from the Hawaiian pea)

ca!


thank you.

Quote:
I'm afraid I didn't understand your previous question.


summed up, how should I mark questions? with <_u>, with <_tzi>, or with <-lalu>


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