The CBB

Vlürch wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018 19:21

Xonen wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018 13:27 ...

Okay, those are all good points. I guess I've lost sight of how different it is, haha.

Xonen wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018 13:27In any case, expecting normal people to find learning a whole new alphabet easy is a bit unreasonable, IMO.

I guess that's also true, and it could be that I'm just naturally good at learning writing systems;

Could be... It should also perhaps be noted that it's one thing to learn the symbols in isolation, and quite another to actually learn how to read whole words fluently. The former I don't recall struggling much with in Cyrillic (although I had at least one friend who took like two years of Russian and never did manage to learn to remember what <ж> looks like... ), but the latter very much yes. It's been over fifteen years since I started Russian and I may still stumble on longer words.

Actually, one thought I've sometimes toyed with would be to create a version of Cyrillic which would maximize mutual intelligibility with Latin, which you could write languages like, say, Karelian in. Maybe I'll post it here some day, but I'd need a few days to refine the idea, and right now I'm facing too many deadlines for that.

Xonen wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018 13:27And Cyrillic might have some unfortunate connotations of Russification. Again, politics.

This. Russians don't own the Cyrillic alphabet and people assuming it has a supposed inherent connection to Russian has always confused me.

Well, Russian is by far the most widely spoken language written in it, both in number of speakers and (especially) geographically, and this was even more so when it was the official language of a superpower - which wasn't actually that long ago. Plus, many of the languages written in Cyrillic are only written in Cyrillic because said superpower essentially forced it on them, which is the kind of thing that tends to create unfortunate political connotations, no matter what the linguistic merits of using Cyrillic might be.

That said, I do find it frustrating that people can't see past the politics in matters like this, but not the least bit surprising.

---

Omzinesý wrote: ↑24 Apr 2018 13:09Kirja perintöruhtinas Davidin, Abramin pojan sukukunnasta. Abram sai Iisakin, Iisak sai Jaakobin: Jaakob sai Juudan ja hänen veljensä.

Šyndy actually seems to mean 'Christ' for whatever reason; I've seen it in Karelian texts before. The corresponding passage in (the modern translation of) the Finnish Bible seems to be this:

1 Jeesuksen Kristuksen, Daavidin pojan ja Abrahamin pojan, sukuluettelo:

2 Abrahamille syntyi Iisak, Iisakille Jaakob, Jaakobille Juuda ja tämän veljet, 3 Juudalle Peres ja Serah, joiden äiti oli Tamar, Peresille Hesron, Hesronille Ram, 4 Ramille Amminadab, Amminadabille Nahson, Nahsonille Salma, 5 Salmalle Boas,

Xonen wrote: ↑25 Apr 2018 00:39Could be... It should also perhaps be noted that it's one thing to learn the symbols in isolation, and quite another to actually learn how to read whole words fluently. The former I don't recall struggling much with in Cyrillic (although I had at least one friend who took like two years of Russian and never did manage to learn to remember what <ж> looks like... ), but the latter very much yes. It's been over fifteen years since I started Russian and I may still stumble on longer words.

Yeah, that's definitely true when it comes to Russian and other Slavic languages and whatnot since they have a lot of consonant clusters and stuff, but when it comes to Turkic languages like Kazakh and Kyrgyz, at least for me it's only barely slower than reading text in the Latin alphabet; with time it'll hopefully become just as easy. I may not understand everything, though... in fact, I'll usually have this "AAAH I've looked this word up a thousand times but STILL don't remember what it means..." feeling whenever I read anything in any language other than Finnish or English.

Xonen wrote: ↑25 Apr 2018 00:39Actually, one thought I've sometimes toyed with would be to create a version of Cyrillic which would maximize mutual intelligibility with Latin, which you could write languages like, say, Karelian in. Maybe I'll post it here some day, but I'd need a few days to refine the idea, and right now I'm facing too many deadlines for that.

Sounds interesting.

Xonen wrote: ↑25 Apr 2018 00:39Well, Russian is by far the most widely spoken language written in it, both in number of speakers and (especially) geographically, and this was even more so when it was the official language of a superpower - which wasn't actually that long ago. Plus, many of the languages written in Cyrillic are only written in Cyrillic because said superpower essentially forced it on them, which is the kind of thing that tends to create unfortunate political connotations, no matter what the linguistic merits of using Cyrillic might be.

Mmh, but still... I guess I'm just too fed up with politics in general to see the point in considering anything except aesthetics/practicality when it comes to writing systems, etc.

---

Just for fun, Turkish with alchemical and geometric symbols. It looks pretty ugly, but as a general rule spoopy cyphers aren't supposed to look nice... and this would definitely be used as a spoopy cypher, I guess.

/m n/ <🜏 🜍>
/p b t d k g/ <🜘 🜻 🜿 🜵 🜱 🜥>
/t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ <🜾 🝤>
/s z ʃ ʒ/ <🜺 🝐 🝑 🝒>
/f v j ɰ h/ <🜫 🜬 🝔 🜲 🝕>
/r/ <▾>
/l/ <▿>

/ɑ e i ɯ o ø u y/ <△ ▲ ▮ ▯ ◇ ◆ ▽ ▼>

Words are separated by a circle: ◯. The only punctuation mark is 🝯, used as a comma, full stop, etc.

Words like "değil" would be spelled phonemically, eg. 🜵▲🝔▮▿ rather than 🜵▲🜲▮▿. So, when <ğ> is /j/, it's spelled as if it was <y>. Other than that, there'd be a one-to-one correspondence between the actual Turkish alphabet and this one except that all the common misspellings on this Wikipedia list would replace the correct ones just because. For example, <her şey> would be 🝕▲▾🝑▲🝔 rather than 🝕▲▾◯🝑▲🝔.

🜵▼🜍🝔△🜍▯🜍◯▲🜍◯🜿▽🝕🜫◯▮🜍🜺△🜍◯🜥▲▿▮🝔◇▾🝯△🜏△◯△🜺▿▯🜍🜵△◯🜾◇🜱🜿△🜍◯◆▿▼🝯 (Dünyanın en tuhaf insan geliyor, ama aslında çoktan öldü. "The world's strangest person is coming, but in reality he/she has already died.")

Sanskrit for fun
/m n ɳ ɲ ŋ/ m n nh/ņ/ƞ nj/ɲ/ń ng/ŋ/ň
/p pʰ b bʱ t tʰ d dʱ ʈ ʈʰ ɖ ɖʱ c cʰ ɟ ɟʱ k kʰ g gʱ/ p ph/ṕ b bh/b́ t th/t́ d dh/d́ ŧ ŧh/ŧ́ đ đh/đ́ c ch/ć y yh/ý k ḱ/kh g ǵ/gh
/f s ʂ ç ɦ/ f s s̵ ċ h
/ʋ l ɽ j/w l r j

/i iː u uː e o ə aː/ i ii/î u uu/û e o a aa/â
/ai au ɻ̩ ɻ̩ː l̩ l̩ː/ ai/ê au/ô ɍ ɍɍ/ɍ̂ ƚ ƚƚ/ƚ̂
/Ṽ Vh/ VN/Vǹ/V̨ Vħ/V̈
Now Indonesian
/m n ŋ ɲ/ m n ņ/ng ñ/ny
/p b t d k g ʔ/ p b t d k g -q
/f (v) s (z) ʃ (x) (ɣ) h/ f v s z sh/š x gh/ġ h
/tʃ dʒ/ ch j
/l r w j/ l r w j
/i u e o ə a/ i u e o ĕ/ë a
Now Spanish
/p b t d k g/ p b t d k g
/f β s x ɣ/ f v s h ǥ
/l r ɾ j/ l ɍ r j
/m n ɲ/ m n ɲ
/ʧ/ c
/a e i o u/ a e i o u

Here's a respelling of my local Kajkavian dialect based on pre-19th century orthographic traditions (basically, a modification of the orthography found in Belostenec's dictionary). Let's make a language's orthography less phonemic for once!

Graphemes:

/m n ɲ/ <m n ny>

/p b t d k g/ <p b t d k,c g>

/f v s z ʂ ʐ ɕ ʑ/ <f v sz z s,ss zs,s sh zh>

/t͡s ʈ͡ʂ t͡ɕ ɟ~d͡ʑ/ <cz,c,t cs ch gy>

/l ʎ/ <l ly>

/r/ <r>

/j/ <j>

/i e ɛ ə a o u/ <i,y ė e ë a o u>

/iː eː ɛː aː ɑː oː uː/ <i ė e a a o u>

Rules:
/ʂ/ is written as <s> initially, word-finally and before consonants, and as <ss> intervocalically.

/ʐ/ is written as <zs> initially and word finally and as <s> otherwise.

/i/ is written as <y> when it's a word on it's own, sometimes also word-finally, and as <i> otherwise.

Latin words retain their spelling, and are pronounced according to the regional pronunciation, which is basically the Slavic one with predictable vowel length added according to Italian rules. That means <c> is pronounced as /k/ before back vowels, and as /t͡s/ before front ones, <ti> pronounces as /t͡si/ before a vowel, and there is also <x> for /ks/, /gz/ and <qu> for /kv/. Sibilants, however are pronounced according to the usual rules.

All consonants can be geminated to show that the preceding accented vowel is short. In case of digraphs, only the first letter is doubled, and geminated /k/ is written as <ck>.

Tone is unmarked, but the location of the accent can be marked by an acute accent.

Rotokas Orthography Reform:

Phonology:

Consonants:
voiceless: /p t k/
voiced: /b~β d~ɾ g~ɣ/
nasals(for Aita Rotokas only): /m n ŋ/

Vowels: /a e i o u/

syllable: (C)V

New Orthography - Rotokas Kana:

Hiragana:

/a i u e o/<あいうえお>
/ka ki ku ke ko/<かきくけこ>
/ga gi gu ge go/<がぎぐげご>
/ta ti tu te to/<たしつてと>
/da di du de do/<らりるれろ>
/pa pi pu pe po/<ぱぴぷぺぽ>
/ba bi bu be bo/<ばびぶべぼ>
for Aita Rotokas only:
/ŋa ŋi ŋu ŋe ŋo/<か゚き゚く゚け゚こ゚>
/na ni nu ne no/<なにぬねの>
/ma mi mu me mo/<まみむめも>

Katakana:
/a i u e o/<アイウエオ>
/ka ki ku ke ko/<カキクケコ>
/ga gi gu ge go/<ガギグゲゴ>
/ta ti tu te to/<タシツテト>
/da di du de do/<ラリルレロ>
/pa pi pu pe po/<パピプペポ>
/ba bi bu be bo/<バビブベボ>
for Aita Rotokas only:
/ŋa ŋi ŋu ŋe ŋo/<カﾟキﾟクﾟケﾟコﾟ>
/na ni nu ne no/<ナニヌネノ>
/ma mi mu me mo/<マミムメモ>

Long vowels are marked in a way identical to Japanese

Note:
- Considering the allophone of /t/ before /i/ in Rotokas, <し> instead of <ち> is used for /ti/.

Usage:
- Hiraganas are used for native words, Katakanas are used for recently-borrowed foreign words, onomatopoeia, names of animals, proper nouns and plants in scientific context, etc.
- All unused Kanas may be used for sounds that don't exist in Rotokas Proper, e.g. words of Aita Rotokas or, imitations, foreign words, etc.

Example:

Sentence: おしれいとあれいあぶかばいあばうるるぱびらとうぱしべいら
Analysis: おしれい-とあれい　あぶか-ば　いあば　うるるぱ-びら　とう-ぱ-し-べいら
Interlinear: eye-masc.du old-fem.sg post closed-adv be-prog-2.du.masc-habit
English: The old woman's eyes are shut.

Kanjis can also be introduced, and as Kun-readings are originated from the representation of semantics of native words, instead of the pronounciation of them, the Kun-reading of Kanjis in Rotokas are from native Rotokas words, the On-reading is not used. This is to reduce the total space for writing, considering the restricted phonology of Rotokas.

Example:

Sentence: 目とあれい老婦いあば閉びらとうぱしべいら
Analysis: 目-とあれい　老-婦　いあば　閉-びら　とう-ぱ-し-べいら
Interlinear: eye-masc.du old-fem.sg post closed-adv be-prog-2.du.masc-habit
English: The old woman's eyes are shut.

Very interesting! If I might ask, where did you find those k-row characters with the handakuten? I've never seen those before.

shimobaatar wrote: ↑28 Jul 2018 05:37 Very interesting! If I might ask, where did you find those k-row characters with the handakuten? I've never seen those before.

The hiragana ones are from Chinese and Japanese wikipedia; the katakana ones are composed of the regular k-row katakanas and the handakuten from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakuten_and_handakuten

k1234567890y wrote: ↑28 Jul 2018 06:45

shimobaatar wrote: ↑28 Jul 2018 05:37 Very interesting! If I might ask, where did you find those k-row characters with the handakuten? I've never seen those before.

The hiragana ones are from Chinese and Japanese wikipedia; the katakana ones are composed of the regular k-row katakanas and the handakuten from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakuten_and_handakuten

I can tell, judging by what I called them in my original question. Anyway, what Wikipedia has to say about their usage is very cool! Thank you!

shimobaatar wrote: ↑28 Jul 2018 06:48

k1234567890y wrote: ↑28 Jul 2018 06:45

shimobaatar wrote: ↑28 Jul 2018 05:37 Very interesting! If I might ask, where did you find those k-row characters with the handakuten? I've never seen those before.

The hiragana ones are from Chinese and Japanese wikipedia; the katakana ones are composed of the regular k-row katakanas and the handakuten from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakuten_and_handakuten

I can tell, judging by what I called them in my original question. Anyway, what Wikipedia has to say about their usage is very cool! Thank you!

you are welcome, 霜勇士

Mandarin a la Pigeonese
/m n ŋ/ m n ŋ
/p pʰ t tʰ k kʰ/ b p d t g k
/f s ʂ ʐ ɕ x/ f s š ž ś h
/ts tsʰ tɕ tɕʰ ʈʂ ʈʂʰ/ c z ć ź č ž
/l j ɥ w/ l j~ĭ j̈~ü̆ w~ŭ

/i y u e ɤ o a/ i ü u e ë o a
/ɨ~z̩ ɯ~ʐ̩/ ï î

Tones 1-4 are a ā ą à

Indonesian a la Pigeonese
/p b t d k g ʔ/ p b t d k g ɂ
/f v s z ʃ x h/ f v s z š ḫ h
/m n ɲ ŋ/ m n ɲ ŋ
/l j w r/ l j w r
/tʃ dʒ/ č ž
/i u e o ə a/ i u e o ë a
/ai au ua ui/ aĭ aŭ ŭa uĭ

French a la Pigeonese
/m n ɲ/ m n ɲ
/p b t d k g/ p b t d k g
/f v s z ʃ ʒ ʁ/ f v s z š ž h
/l j ɥ w/ l j~ĭ j̈~ü̆ w~ŭ

/i y u e ø o ɛ ɛ̃ œ œ̃ ɔ ɔ̃ a ɑ̃/ i ü u e ö o ĕ ę ö̆ ǫ̈ ŏ ǫ a ą

Italian a la Pigeonese
/m n ɲ/ m n ɲ
/p b t d k g/ p b t d k g
/f v s z ʃ ʒ/ f v s z š ž
/ʦ ʣ ʧ ʤ/ c ʒ č ǯ
/l j w r/ l j~ĭ w~ŭ r

/i u e o ɛ ɔ a/ i u e o ĕ ŏ a
/ˈaː/ ā

Vietnamese a la Pigeonese
/m n ɲ ŋ/ m n ɲ ŋ
/(p) t tʰ ʈʂ c k (Ɂ)/ p t ŧ ṭ c k ɂ
/ɓ ɗ/ b d
/f v~j s z~j ʂ ʐ x ɣ h/ f v~j/ĭ s z~j/ĭ š ž g ƣ h
/l w/ l w/ŭ
/iə̯ ɨə̯ uə̯/ iă yă uă
/i ɨ u e ə ə̆ o ɛ a aː ɔ/ i y u e ə ʌ o ĕ a æ ŏ
/a˧ a˨˩ a˧˥ a˧ˀ˨ʔ a˧˩˧ a˧ˀ˥/ a ä ā a̱ a̍ a̩

Japanese a la Pigeonese
/p b t d k g/ p b t d k g
/ɸ s ɕ ç h/ f s š ṡ h
/m n ɲ ɴ/ m n ɲ ŋ
/ʦ ʣ ʨ ʥ/ c z č ž
/ɺ/ r
/j w/ j~ĭ v~ŭ

/i e/ i e
/a/ a
/ɯ o/ w o
/aː/ ā

Klingon a la Pigeonese
/pʰ b tʰ ɖ qʰ ʔ/ p b t ḍ k ɂ
/t͡ɬ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ q͡χ/ ɫ c z q
/v ʂ x ɣ/ f ṣ h g
/m n ŋ/ m n ŋ
/r/ r
/w l j/ ŭ l j

/u ɪ o ɛ ɑ/ u i o e a

Arabic a la Pigeonese
/m n/ m n
/b t tˁ d dˤ d͡ʒ k q ʔ/ b t ṭ d ḍ ž k g ɂ
/f θ ð ðˁ s sˤ z ʃ x~χ ɣ~ʁ ħ ʕ ɦ/ f ŧ đ đ̣ s ṣ z š g ǥ ḥ ꜥ h
/r/ r
/l (ɫ) j w/ l ḷ j~ĭ v~ŭ

/i iː (eː)/ i ī ē
/a aː/ a ā
/u uː (oː)/ u ū ō

Esperanto a la Pigeonese
/m n/ m n
/p b t d k g/ p b t d k g
/t͡s t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ c č ʒ
f v s z ʃ ʒ x h/ f v s z š ž ꝁ h
/r/ r
/l j/ l j
/i̯ u̯/ ĭ ŭ
/i u e o a/ i u e o a

Volapük a la Pigeonese
/p b t d k g/ p b t d k g
/m n/ m n
/f v s~z ʃ~ʒ h/ f v s~z š~ž
/tʃ~dʒ/ č~ʒ
/j w l/ j~ĭ w~ŭ l
/r/ r

/i y u e ø o æ a/ i y u e ø o æ a

Lojban a la Pigeonese
/p b t d k g ʔ/ p b t d k g ɂ
/f v s z ʃ ʒ x h/ f v s z š ž ꝁ h
/m n/ m n
/l r/ l r

/i u ə ɛ ɔ a/ i u e è o a

Javanese a la Pigeonese
/p b̥ t̪ d̪̥ ʈ ɖ̥ ʧ ʤ̊ k g̊ ʔ/ p b t d ṭ ḍ č ž k g ɂ
/ʂ h/ s h
/m ɳ ɲ ŋ/ m n ỹ ŋ
/ɭ j w/ l j~ĭ v~ŭ
/ɽ/ r

/i u e o ə ɛ ɔ a/ i u é o e è ò a

Finnish should also adapt <q> for "final gemination", like Voru/Setu.

<tee> 'tea'
<teeq> 'do!'

<palaa> 'returns'
<palaaq 'return!'

etc.

Fijian a la Pigeonese
/m n ŋ/ m n ŋ
/p ᵐb t ⁿd k ᵑg/ p b t d k g
/β (f) s ð (x)/ ƀ (f) s đ (h)
/r ᶯɖʳ/ r ḍ
/l j w/ l j v

/i u e o a/ i u e o a + long ones written as ī ū ē ō ā
/ai̯ au̯ ei̯ eu̯ oi̯ ou̯/ aĭ aŭ eĭ eŭ oĭ oŭ

Dutch a la Pigeonese
/p b t d k (g) (ʔ)/ p b t d k (g) (ɂ)
/m n ŋ/ m n ŋ
/f v s z (ʃ) (ʒ) x ɣ ɦ/ f v s z (š) (ž) ꝁ ǥ h
/ʋ l j/ ʋ l j
/r/ r

/i iː y yː ɪ ʏ eː øː ɛ ɛː ɛ̃ ɛ̃ː œː œ̃ː/ i ī y ȳ ì ỳ é ö è ê ę ẽ ȫ ṏ
/ə aː/ e ā
/u uː ʊ oː ɔ ɔː ɔ̃ ɔ̃ː ɑ ɑː ɑ̃ː/ u ū ù ō o ò ǫ ǭ a å ą

Estonian a la Pigeonese
/m n nʲ/ m n ỹ
/p pː t tː tʲ tʲː k kː/ p b t d ť ď k g
/f fː v s sː sʲ sʲː ʃ ʃː h hː/ f ᵽ v s z ś ź š ž h ɦ
/l lʲ j/ l ľ j
/r/ r

/i y u e ø ɤ o æ ɑ/ i ü u e ö ë o æ a
/ɑ ɑː ɑːː/ a ā ā̄
/ɑ̯ e̯ i̯ o̯ u̯/ ă ĕ ĭ ŏ ŭ

Scottish Gaelic a la Pigeonese
/p pʰ t tʰ tʲ tʲʰ kʲ kʲʰ k kʰ/ p b t d ť ď ḱ ǵ k g
/f v s ʃ ç ʝ x ɣ h/ f v s š ś ź ꝁ ǥ h
/m nˠ n ɲ/ m g̃ n ỹ
/lˠ l ʎ j/ ɫ l ľ j
/ɾ ɾʲ/ r r̈
/rˠ/ ɍ

/i ɯ u ɪ e ɤ o ə ɛ ɔ a/ i w u ì e ö o è ê ô a
/aː/ ā
/ei ai ɤi ui iə uə ɛu ɔu au ia/ eĭ aĭ öĭ y iĕ uĕ eŭ oŭ aŭ iă

Naj sf, thyenbxyajzwnf tw khoginb yenfyug, tobsf ibyaaj. Thabmwn vaag twwbpyenb kyenbif tw sfho, txaij Sjnaf tij yujkyenj ib kyenj phiifvyenf, kyouj tsuj txaij najli. Thabmwn pigtxhg saablyaaj svob: "Laif pa, vogmwn yauj txvoj tsvanb, pag tsvanb saubthoj lw." Thabmwn kyoj naf tsvanb taaj sftof, yoj naf sfkhib taaj hvebni.