Sign from the Heaven (conditional)

[Omzinesý]

(a) - realis conditional
If I get a sign from the Heaven, I will know that the God loves me.

(b) - irrealis conditional
If I got a sign from the Heaven, I would know that the God loves me.


If there is a grammatical difference, the clauses of the sentences can be written in the opposite order.

[Ear of the Sphinx]

Jeśli dostanę znak z Nieba, będę wiedział/a/, że Bóg mnie kocha.
Gdy dostanę znak z Nieba, będę wiedział/a/, że Bóg mnie kocha.

Jeśli dostał/a/bym znak z Nieba, wiedział/a/bym, że Bóg mnie kocha.
Gdybym dostał/a/ znak z Nieba, wiedział/a/bym, że Bóg mnie kocha.

[Znex]

εἰ λάβοιμι ἀπὸ τῶν οὐρανῶν σημεῖον, φιλοῦντα τὸν θεόν με εἴσομαι.
If I receive a sign from the heavens, I'll know that God/the god loves me.
εἰ ἔλαβον ἀπὸ τῶν οὐρανῶν σημεῖον, φιλοῦντα τὸν θεόν μέ ἂν ᾔδη.
If I'd received a sign from the heavens, I'd know that God/the god loves me. (But I didn't)

[Bagliun Edar]

Obulamga

(a) - realis conditional
Abameurodo aemubal gimenjoim, bemdojoilom mejām Obubal.
[ˈabamɛuˌɾɔdɔ ˈaɛˌmubal ˈgimɛnˌʒɔim, ˈbɛmdɔʒɔˌilɔm ˈmɛʒaːm ˈɔbubal]
abam-e-uro-do aem-u-bal gimen-jo-im, bemdo-jo-ilom m<ej>ām Obu-bal
person-IND_SG.DEF.MASC-1.this-TOP heaven-IND_SG.DEF.NEUT-ERG sign-IND.POL-CAUSE, know-IND.POL-RESULT <INF>divine_love PR-ERG
If I get a sign from the Heaven, I will know that the God loves me.

(b) - irrealis conditional
Abameurodo aemubal gimenroim, bemdoroilom mejām Obubal.
[ˈabamɛuˌɾɔdɔ ˈaɛˌmubal ˈgimɛnˌɾɔim, ˈbɛmdɔɾɔˌilɔm ˈmɛʒaːm ˈɔbubal]
abam-e-uro-do aem-u-bal gimen-ro-im, bemdo-ro-ilom m<ej>ām Obu-bal
person-IND_SG.DEF.MASC-1.this-TOP heaven-IND_SG.DEF.NEUT-ERG sign-SBJV.POL-CAUSE, know-SBJV.POL-RESULT <INF>divine_love PR-ERG
If I got a sign from the Heaven, I would know that the God loves me.

[Lao Kou]

Géarthnuns

(a) - realis conditional

Sí lí söi hashatsöit chau neskersauv hauhökfíkh sho, sí lí, gü Avíaths la sít höisöl sho, hesferül.
1SG-NOM AUX.FUT INDEF sign-ACC DEF heaven-LOC get-SPEC PTCL, 1SG-NOM AUX.FUT, CONJ God-NOM AUX.PRES 1SG-ACC love-DISC PTCL, know-CONCL
If I get a sign from Heaven, I will know that God loves me.

(b) - irrealis conditional

Sí lí söi hashatsöit chau neskersauv hauhökfíkh sho, sí lí, gü Avíaths la sít höisöl sho, ölzdenü hesferül.
1SG-NOM AUX.FUT INDEF sign-ACC DEF heaven-LOC get-SPEC PTCL, 1SG-NOM AUX.FUT, CONJ God-NOM AUX.PRES 1SG-ACC love-DISC PTCL, irrealis-ADV know-CONCL
If I got a sign from Heaven, I would know that God loves me.

[k1234567890y]

Lonmai Luna/Liunan:

(a)
ede se patelo palur mal bala alen Dodori, letewo se dinta hir alen Adim sarkem se.
if 1.SG acquire sign that from PND world.of.afterlife, in.the.future 1.SG know COMP PND God love 1.SG.


(b)
ede se ras patelo palur mal bala alen Dodori, letewo se ras dinta hir alen Adim sarkem se.
if 1.SG SUBJUNCTIVE acquire sign that from PND world.of.afterlife, in.the.future 1.SG SUBJUNCTIVE know COMP PND God love 1.SG.

Nevotak
(a)
nuz ur ez na bi Adim zak, ur nez Adim zarkem ur.
say/if 1.PRON receive sign come.from God thing, 1.PRON know God love 1.SG

(b)
nuz ur riiznuz ez na bi toikinizh zak, ur nez Adim zarkem ur.
say/if 1.PRON assume/SUBJUNCTIVE receive sign come.from heaven thing, 1.PRON know God love 1.SG

riiznuz ur ez na bi toikinizh zak, ur nez Adim zarkem ur.
assume/if.SUBJUNCTIVE 1.PRON receive sign come.from heaven thing, 1.PRON know God love 1.SG

Sakawi
(a)
sangudha slobiati natominongkipo, sang abotonistakinis zäkeminengkes
sangudha slobia-ti nat-om-in-ongk-i-po, sang abot-on-ist-ak-i-nis zäk-em-in-engk-es
heavensign-3.SG.POSS get.PROX>OBV-3.SG.P-1.SG.A-COND-PRES-if, god love-1.SG.P-3.SG.A-IND-PRES-NMLZ understand-3.SG.P-1.SG.A-COND-FUT

(b)
sangudha slobiati natominogipo, sang abotonistakinis zäkemineges
sangudha slobia-ti nat-om-in-og-i-po, sang abot-on-ist-ak-i-nis zäk-em-in-eg-es
heaven sign-3.SG.POSS get.PROX>OBV-3.SG.P-1.SG.A-SUBJUNCTIVE-PRES-if, god love-1.SG.P-3.SG.A-IND-PRES-NMLZ understand-3.SG.P-1.SG.A-SUBJUNCTIVE-FUT

[Iyionaku]

Yélian

Differences in red.

Vigo pès rat purod dasut æ'vendó, quinrai pi Gòt rat iavet.
[ˈviːxo pɛs ɾɐ̆‿ˈpuːɾɔd ˈdasʉt əʋənˈdoː, ˈkinɾaɪ̯ pi gɔt ɾɐt ˈɪ̯aːʋət]
if DAT 1SG.OBL sign give-INV.3SG.INAN DEF.CONC=heaven, know-1SG that god 1SG.OBL love-3SG
If I get a sign from the Heaven, I will know that the God loves me.

Vigo pès rat purod didasvut æ'vendó, diquinravain pi Gòt rat iavet.
[ˈviːxo pɛs ɾɐ̆‿ˈpuːɾɔd dɨˈdasvʉt əʋənˈdoː, dɨˈkinɾɐvaɪ̯n pi gɔt ɾɐt ˈɪ̯aːʋət]
if DAT 1SG.OBL sign COND-give-COND.INV.3SG.INAN DEF.CONC=heaven, COND-know-COND.1SG that god 1SG.OBL love-3SG
If I got a sign from the Heaven, I would know that the God loves me.

[Imralu]

(a) - realis conditional
If I get a sign from the Heaven, I will know that the God loves me.

(b) - irrealis conditional
If I got a sign from the Heaven, I would know that the God loves me.

* You could say the god, using it as an uncapitalised general noun (= deity) but capitalising it means you're using it as a name and therefore it takes no definite article.

Swahili:

(Kama/ikiwa) nikipata ishara kutoka mbinguni, nitajua kwamba Mungu ananipenda.
If I see a sign from heaven, I will know God loves me.

(Kama/ikiwa) ningepata ishara kutoka mbinguni, ningejua kwamba Mungu ananipenda.
If I saw a sign from heaven, I would know God loves me.

(Kama/ikiwa) ningalipata ishara kutoka mbinguni, ningalijua kwamba Mungu ananipenda.
If I had seen a sign from heaven, I would have known God loves me.

In the irrealis conditionals, the verb form is the same in both clauses. Generally the protasis comes before the apodosis, but either of the words for if Can be used to clarify. Kama also means "like" and ikiwa is a form of the verb "to be" which means "if it is".

[Reyzadren]

Removed.

[Imralu]

It is the same for both a & b. There is no difference in griuskant.

But surely there must be a way, even if it's adding phrases like "hypothetically speaking" for b and "which might happen" for a.

[Dormouse559]

French

(a)
Si je reçois/recevrai un signe du ciel, je saurai que Dieu m'aime.
/si‿ʒ ʁə.swa ʁə.sə.vʁe œ̃ siɲ dy sjɛl | ʃ‿so.ʁe‿k djø mɛm/
if 1SG.NOM receive.PRS.IND/receive-FUT.IND.1SG INDEF.M sign from-DEF.M sky 1SG.NOM know-FUT.IND.1SG SBRD god 1SG.ACC=love

(b)
Si je recevais un signe du ciel, je saurais que Dieu m'aime.
/si‿ʒ ʁəs.vɛ œ̃ siɲ dy sjɛl | ʃ‿so.ʁɛ‿k djø mɛm/
if 1SG.NOM receive-IPF.IND INDEF.M sign from-DEF.M sky 1SG.NOM know-COND SBRD god 1SG.ACC=love


Silvish

(a)
Si ca jo reçëvo on signo deuvi çieli, jo säuâ c'li Bondjò m'lama.
/si.ka.ʑo.ʁəˈse.vu ũˈse.ɲu dø.viˈsi.li | ʑo.syˈwɛ kli.bũˈʑɔ ˈmlɑ.ma/
if SBRD 1SG.NOM=receive.SBJV_PRS-1SG INDEF.WK.M sign-ACC from-DEF.OBL sky-OBL 1SG.NOM know-FUT.IND.1SG SBRD=DEF-ST.M god 1SG.ACC=love-3SG

(b)
Si ca jo reçüho on signo deuvi çieli, jo säuê c'li Bondjò m'lama.
/si.ka.ʑo.ʁəˈsy.hu ũˈse.ɲu dø.viˈsi.li | ʑo.syˈwe kli.bũˈʑɔ ˈmlɑ.ma/
if SBRD 1SG.NOM=receive.SBJV_IPF-1SG INDEF.WK.M sign-ACC from-DEF.OBL sky-OBL 1SG.NOM know-COND.1SG SBRD=DEF-ST.M god 1SG.ACC=love-3SG


(a)
If I get a sign from Heaven, I will know that God loves me.

(b)
If I got a sign from Heaven, I would know that God loves me.

[Reyzadren]

It is the same for both a & b. There is no difference in griuskant.

But surely there must be a way, even if it's adding phrases like "hypothetically speaking" for b and "which might happen" for a.

There is still no difference.

[Iyionaku]

They are not they same. Sentence a) is realis: it is likely that A occurs and the person states what they will do in that case. b) is irrealis: it is unlikely that A happens and B only states what they WOULD do in that case.

I think every natural language can distinguish those, either grammatically or periphrastically by means of adverbs, for example. So unless you attempt to create a philosophical conlang, your language should be able to distinguish thise.

[Creyeditor]

But there is possibly a difference between being able to distinguish something periphrastically in specil contexts and the construction you normally use, right? So having the same for both is okay, I guess.

[Reyzadren]

Nope, still the same :P

[Imralu]

It is the same for both a & b. There is no difference in griuskant.

But surely there must be a way, even if it's adding phrases like "hypothetically speaking" for b and "which might happen" for a.

"might happen" = "hypothetical". They look the same to me.

There is still no difference in my conlang.

If it were raining now (I know it's not - hypothetical)
If it is raining now (I don't know if it is - possible)

Could be good for a new thread

[Imralu]

And what we're saying is not that it's impossible for there to be no difference most of the time, but if it is relevant to what the speaker is saying, there must be some way to bring it across, even if involves several additional sentences explaining what that difference is. And basically, I asked because that way of getting it across is, to me, far more interesting than just a single sentence and saying "untranslatable - it's the same"...

[Batz]

Naguil

1) In the first one there is a possibility in future, so both verbs use the future tense. sei = "if" comes from sere = "to have / possess" and could also be translated to "given".

Sei eolerea sengei edhennuen, (edheon) elbanea elybes imena elgei.
/'sɛːi ɛɔ'lɛːre.a sɛŋgɛi ɛ'ðɛnːu.ɛn ɛ'ðɛ.ɔn ɛl'baːne.a ɛ'lyːbəs i'mɛːna ɛl'gɛːi/
Sei eo-ler-ea seng-ei e-dhenn-uen, (e-dhe-on) el-ban-ea e-lyb-es i-men-a el-g-ei.
if 1SG-get-FUT sign-ACC DEF.ART-heaven-ABL, (DEF.ART-consequence-TMP) 1SG-know-FUT DEF.ART-god-NOM.PL 3PL-love-PRS 1SG-who-ACC.
If I get a sign from heaven, (then) I will know that the gods love me.

2) The second condition is counterfactual, so sei lain is used, where lain is short for lambin = "in contrast" - so "given in contrast". Both present tense and subjunctive tense could be used for the condition.

Sei lain eolea sengei edhennuen, (edheon lain) elbaneo elybes imena elgei.
/'sɛːi 'laːin ɛɔ'lɛːa sɛŋgɛi ɛ'ðɛnːu.ɛn ɛ'ðɛ.ɔn 'laːin ɛl'baːne.ɔ ɛ'lyːbəs i'mɛːna ɛl'gɛːi/
Sei la-in eo-le(r)-a seng-ei e-dhenn-uen, (e-dhe-on la-in) el-ban-eo e-lyb-es i-men-a el-g-ei.
if contrast-LOC 1SG-get-PRS sign-ACC DEF.ART-heaven-ABL, (DEF.ART-consequence-TMP contrast-LOC) 1SG-know-SBJV DEF.ART-god-NOM.PL 3PL-love-PRS 1SG-who-ACC.
If (in contrast) I got a sign from heaven, (then) I would know that the gods love me.

3) I added a third example using the normal past tense for a past irrealis conditional. Again, lain makes sure the condition is counterfactual.

Sei lain eoleigh sengei edhennuen, (edheon lain) elbanil elybes imena elgei.
/'sɛːi 'laːin ɛɔ'lɛːiç sɛŋgɛi ɛ'ðɛnːu.ɛn ɛ'ðɛ.ɔn 'laːin ɛl'baːnil ɛ'lyːbəs i'mɛːna ɛl'gɛːi/
Sei la-in eo-le(r)-igh seng-ei e-dhenn-uen, (e-dhe-on la-in) el-ban-il e-lyb-es i-men-a el-g-ei.
if contrast-LOC 1SG-get-PST sign-ACC DEF.ART-heaven-ABL, (DEF.ART-consequence-TMP contrast-LOC) 1SG-know-PST DEF.ART-god-NOM.PL 3PL-love-PRS 1SG-who-ACC.
If (in contrast) I had gotten a sign from heaven, (then) I would have known that the gods love me.

[Znex]

Yorkish
Gin ʒe get ei tecken frae himmen, ʒe ska cenne at Guth lists me.
/cɪn jə cɛt ə 'tʰɛkən frə 'çɪmɪn | jə skə cçɛn ə kʊθ lɪs(t)s mə/
if 1SG get IDEF token from heaven | 1SG FUT.AUX know SBORD God love-PRS.3 1SG.OBL

Gin ʒe gat ei tecken frae himmen, ʒe scid cenne at Guth lists me.
/cɪn jə kat ə 'tʰɛkən frə 'çɪmɪn | jə scɪt cçɛn ə kʊθ lɪs(t)s mə/
if 1SG get.PST IDEF token from heaven | 1SG COND.AUX know SBORD God love-PRS.3 1SG.OBL

Gin ʒe had getten ei tecken frae himmen, ʒe scid ha cend at Guth lists me.
/cɪn jə ət 'cɛtən ə 'tʰɛkən frə 'çɪmɪn | jə scɪt ə cçɛnt ə kʊθ lɪs(t)s mə/
if 1SG PPF.AUX get.PST.PART IDEF token from heaven | 1SG COND.AUX PF.AUX know-PST.PART SBORD God love-PRS.3 1SG.OBL