Quick Diachronics Challenge

[Arayaz]

1. bæ
2. mõ
3. muaŋ
4. pa
5. wa
6. mva
7. mpà:
8. m: a:

I was tempted into the *mbwaŋ fallacy, but let's see if I can't get somethin’ else... *mpag. I failed to get a new idea.

Spoiler:

mõ and muaŋ are an obvious group that I can see... *muaŋ, honestly, seems like the best guess.
mva and mpàː are definitely a group too. mmaː falls in there as well, I bet. *mpa with some coda consonant seems likely?
bæ, pa, and wa are the last group, and are *ba, maybe?
I could see *mpa > *mba > *ba...
So finally, *muaŋ and *mpa could come from an ancestor like *mpaŋ.
Dammit. Let's try that again:

Maybe I could group them based on whether or not they start with a nasal.
So (mõ, muaŋ, mva, mpàː, mmaː) and (bæ, pa, wa).
The latter comes from *ba, probably, like I said before.

Within the former, I could see mõ and muaŋ from *mwaŋ and mva, mpàː, and mmaː from (wild guess here, to keep stuff interesting) *mfah.
*mfaŋ for that, and *ba could come from that too...
*mfaŋ.
That is so close to *mpaŋ it's not even funny...

Rgh. I'm not throwing myself in with that crowd. But I can't think of anything too creative (and I don't wanna steal ɶʙ ɞʛ's very clever idea).

Maybe it originally ended with *g ─ *mpag? Nasal harmony might've produced muaŋ. But that's just an idea.
Rghhhh.

[_Just_A_Sketch]

1. bæ
2. mõ
3. muaŋ
4. pa
5. wa
6. mva
7. mpà:
8. m: a:

Ok so I've never done this before but I'll give it a shot.

Spoiler:

The most obvious groups I see would be 2+3, 4+5(maybe +1 too), and 6+7+8.

2+3 (mõ and muaŋ) probably come from something close to *mwaŋ. In 2, wa simplified to o which was nasalized by ŋ before it was dropped. 3 only had w become u.

4+5+1 (pa, wa, bæ) could come from *pʷa. In 4, pʷ was delabialized. In 5, pʷ was simplified to w. 1 seems more complicated, with pʷ > pw > bw > b, and a > æ, but still believable.

6+7+8 (mva, mpà:, m: a:) most likely show some prenasalization, possible coming from something like *ᵐpʷaC. Like in 5, pʷ becomes w in 6 and then becomes v. 7 follows 4 and delabializes pʷ to p. 8 simplifies the entire mpʷ sequence to m:. All of them lose the final consonant, which has no effect on 6, but lengthens 7 and 8, and also leaves a low tone on 7.

I think the original word would be something like *ᵐpʷaŋ.

[Creyeditor]

Okay, here are my responses:

Just a sketch:

Spoiler:

2+3 is a valid group, but you only reconstructed part of the protoform correctly
4+5(+1) is not a valid group, you need to kick out one. This might also help with the protoform.
6+7+8 is not a valid group, you need to kick out one. This might also help with the protoform.
Your proto form has a third of its segments correct.

Arayaz

Spoiler:

I am not sure how to respond, so I am going to start with what you wrote first. I could potentially count the rest of this as your second guess tomorrow if you request that.
mõ and muaŋ is a valid group but your protoform is only partially correct.
mva and mpàː (and mma:) is not a valid group. You need to kick out one. This might help you with the protoform.
bæ, pa, and wa is also not a valid group. You again need to kick one out. This might help you with the protoform.
Your overall protoform seems to have half of its segments correct.
Nasal harmony is a good idea but not in the way you suggested it.

oeb eg

Spoiler:

Your Group 1 and Group 2 are valid. Your group 3 is not valid and needs to be split. There are further intermediate groupings. Your overall protoform is incorrect as are most of your intermediate protoforms. Maybe think in other directions?

Sorry, I really didn't intend it to be that hard. Let me know if I should give a cue at some point.

Edit: Current ranking:

1. Arayaz
2. visions
3. just a sketch
4. thethief, oeb eg

[Visions1]

Spoiler:

Alright. So let's make a tree:
bæ - pa; then
mõ - muaŋ; then
wa - mva branch; siter branch of
mpàà - mmaa.
Suppose we reconstruct the vastest order, then go up.

Firstly, let's say /à/ is just falling tone. If so, we can just assume it's no worse than not having any partic. tone on the word, so it's negligible.
One side became /mp/, the other /mm/. Let's say they came from *mb. (That might be where the tone comes from for that matter.)
We now need to solve wa - mva in order to get the two sisters. One has /w/, the other has /mv/, therefore it must have been /mwa/. (Come here and give granny a kiss. Ooh! You're so thin! *Pinches cheek* You must eat something!)

[bæ - pa]; then
[mõ - muaŋ]; then
*mwa - *mbaa.

One has /mw/, the other /mb/ - both voiced; one has a long vowel, the other does not. Maybe the long vowel has something to do with the stop - or conversely, the short vowel has something to do with the glide?
Let's go one level up: mõ - muaŋ. They share a nasal finish, a simple /m/ onset, and a nucleus that hangs around the middle back. Its cousin always has some not-/m/ onset.
Let's say it's /*muon/. Like both, but not there yet.

[bæ - pa]; then
*muon; then
*mwa - *mbaa.

There was a nasal for the lowest group, but it's gone. We need to construct an ancestor to the lowest group that will be sister to /*muon/. Maybe /*muan/, becoming /*mwan/, becoming /*mvan/, becoming /*mvã/. /*mvã/ then splits in two: /*mwã/ and /*mbaa/ (the nasality lengthening the vowel and stopping up the /v/). /*mwã/ loses nasality, either turning into /wa/, or the colouring the /w/ into a /v/. Meanwhile, /mbaa/ wither softens into /mmaa/, or the voiced /b/ produces tone - /mpàà/.

[bæ - pa]; then
*muon - *muan:
*muon: [mon ->] mõ - [muan ->] muaŋ;
*muan -> *mwan -> *mvan -> *mvã: *mwã - *mbaa:
*mwã: mvã - [*wã ->] wa;
*mbaa: mmaa - mpàà

Let's make it shorter:
[bæ - pa]; then
*muon - *muan

Let's now reconstr. the top. The basals share having a plosive to start and an a-ish vowel to finish; I imagine the distinction between /æ/ and /a/ is negligible here, and comes down to a result from voicing and having a short vowel. But that implies the original form was /*ba/.

[*ba] then
[*muon - *muan]
It doesn't make sense to say the bottom changed over time while the top did diddly-squat. Let's fig. out the bottom, then the top. Something like /*muan/ seems likely (everyone has a-es except for /mõ/) - but where did the /u/ come from, and the /n/? [*ba] has neither...
Let's say /*ba/ came from *bilabial-whatsit-presumably-voiced+/a/. Let's also assume another step happened to make... this - and that's the step between us and the protoword. Meanwhile, let's also say that /*muan/ is closer to the proto word than "this" was, but not as close as the one up the chain (say "that").

*Protoword
*"that" - something like *muan
*"this" -- *muan
*"this" --- [*muan - *muon]
*ba ----- [everything else]

Presumably, "this" was like *ba. It probably was a bilabial stop, therefore, and since most of our descendants are voiced, it probably was too. The /n/ in /*muan/ would fit nicely with that. But what about the /u/? It probably became a /w/. But then we're going out of order - the /n/ is still there, but where's the /u/? The /u/ must have disappeared first. Se need to find something that fits with /muan/, chops off the /u/ first, and then the /n/.
Say /*mwan/ -> /*mwã/ -> /*mba/ -> /*ba/ -> /pa - bæ/.
Say /*mwan/ -> /*muan/ -> /*muon - *muan/ -> [/mõ/ - /muaŋ/] - [/*mvan/ -> etc.]

*mwan

This isn't really so hard if you just think sequentially.

[Creyeditor]

visions

Spoiler:

Your protoword has half of its segments correct.
All your low-level groupings (bæ - pa; mõ - muaŋ; wa mva; mpàà - mmaa) are correct.
*mwa is the correct protoform for the low-level grouping [wa mva].
*mbaa is the correct protoform for the low-level grouping [mpàà - mmaa].
*ba is the correct protoform for the low-level grouping [bæ - pa].
*muon is not the correct protoform of [mõ - muaŋ]
IIUC, you suggest [[wa mva] [mpàà - mmaa]] as an intermediate grouping. This is not a valid group.
IIUC, you also suggest everything but [bæ - pa] as an intermediate grouping. This is not a valid group.
All in all, you did a great job. Most of your low-level groupings and protoforms are spot on. Sometimes, you just have the earlier changes the wrong way around.

This puts visions on the top again.
Current ranking:

1. visions
2. Arayaz
3. just a sketch
4. thethief, oeb eg

[Visions1]

Spoiler:

[bæ - pa] [mõ - muaŋ] [wa - mva] [mpàà - mmaa]
[*ba] [*mwon] [*mwa] [*mbaa]
[*mwon - *mwa] [*ba - *mbaa]
[*mwan] [*????]
[??????]

Quick attempt, testing the waters

[Creyeditor]

visions

Spoiler:

Wait, I think you changed your guess at some point. Your overall guess *mban, IIRC, is still only 50% right. Your grouping is spot on, though. Your intermediate reconstructions *mba (IIRC,you edited it out) is correct. *mwa and *mbaa, and *ba are also reasonaly correct. *mwon is wrong and might be part of the reason for your wrong overall protoform.

[Arayaz]

Attempt 2:

1. bæ
2. mõ
3. muaŋ
4. pa
5. wa
6. mva
7. mpàː
8. mmaː

Spoiler:

New groupings:
bæ & pa (*ba?)
mõ & muaŋ (*moŋ)
mva & wa (*mwa)
mpàː & mmaː (*mbaː)

*moŋ & mwa (*mwaŋ)
*ba & mbaː (*mba?)

*mwaŋ & mba (*mbʷaŋ) dammit the mbwang fallacy

Oh well, I landed back in mbwang territory again. I'm not sure what else to do, though. Perhaps the lower-level groupings and the feedback thereof will help me in my third and probably final guess.

[Creyeditor]

Arayaz

Spoiler:

Okay, so your groupings are all correct, as are most of your intermediate forms, namely *ba, *mbaa, *mba, *mwa (reasonably close). *moŋ is wrong though and I guess this is one of the reasons why your overall reconstruction is still only 50% correct. Going back to an earlier cue, you could think about nasal harmony a bit more. You could also try to think of a reverse direction for some of the changes you suggest.

New ranking:

1. visions, Arayaz
3. just a sketch
4. thethief, oeb eg

[Visions1]

Spoiler:

[mõ - muaŋ] [wa - mva] [bæ - pa] [mpàà - mmaa]
[*mwa] [*mwa] [*ba] [*mbaa]
[*mwon - *mwa] [*ba - *mbaa]
[*mwã] [*mba]
[bwã]

[Arayaz]

Arayaz

Spoiler:

Okay, so your groupings are all correct, as are most of your intermediate forms, namely *ba, *mbaa, *mba, *mwa (reasonably close). *moŋ is wrong though and I guess this is one of the reasons why your overall reconstruction is still only 50% correct. Going back to an earlier cue, you could think about nasal harmony a bit more. You could also try to think of a reverse direction for some of the changes you suggest.

One of the mid-level groups I posited (wa - mva - mpàà mmaa) was the same as one that Visions posited in their very first guess, though, which you said was wrong.

[Creyeditor]

Spoiler:

[mõ - muaŋ] [wa - mva] [bæ - pa] [mpàà - mmaa]
[*mwa] [*mwa] [*ba] [*mbaa]
[*mwon - *mwa] [*ba - *mbaa]
[*mwã] [*mba]
[bwã]

Spoiler:

I think there is a typo in the second row because you have [*mwa] twice. Incidentally, this is close for both. [*mwã] is also an intermediate form, you just have it at the wrong level but it is also close at the level you assigned it. This is the major improvement you made. Your protoform is worse in this guess with 0% correct segments.

Arayaz

Spoiler:

Okay, so your groupings are all correct, as are most of your intermediate forms, namely *ba, *mbaa, *mba, *mwa (reasonably close). *moŋ is wrong though and I guess this is one of the reasons why your overall reconstruction is still only 50% correct. Going back to an earlier cue, you could think about nasal harmony a bit more. You could also try to think of a reverse direction for some of the changes you suggest.

One of the mid-level groups I posited (wa - mva - mpàà mmaa) was the same as one that Visions posited in their very first guess, though, which you said was wrong.

I might have misinterpreted something you wrote but I just reread your post and I don't think I see how posited that group. I thought you posited [[pa & bæ] [mpàː mmaː]]. for example.

[Arayaz]

Arayaz

Spoiler:

Okay, so your groupings are all correct, as are most of your intermediate forms, namely *ba, *mbaa, *mba, *mwa (reasonably close). *moŋ is wrong though and I guess this is one of the reasons why your overall reconstruction is still only 50% correct. Going back to an earlier cue, you could think about nasal harmony a bit more. You could also try to think of a reverse direction for some of the changes you suggest.

One of the mid-level groups I posited (wa - mva - mpàà mmaa) was the same as one that Visions posited in their very first guess, though, which you said was wrong.

I might have misinterpreted something you wrote but I just reread your post and I don't think I see how posited that group. I thought you posited [[pa & bæ] [mpàː mmaː]]. for example.

Oops, you're right. I misread my own writing...

[ɶʙ ɞʛ]

New guess:

1. bæ
2. mõ
3. muaŋ
4. pa
5. wa
6. mva
7. mpà:
8. m: a:

Protoform: ɓa(:)ŋ

proto 2/3: ɓa:ŋ > moaŋ
moaŋ > moŋ > mõ
moaŋ > muaŋ

proto 6/7/8: ɓaŋ > b: a:
b: a: > b͡va: > mva
b: a: > b͡pa: > mpà:
b: a: > m͡ba: > m: a:

proto 1/4/5: ɓaŋ > ɓa
ɓa > wa
ɓa > pa
ɓa > bæ

[Visions1]

Spoiler:

[mõ - muaŋ] [wa - mva] [bæ - pa] [mpàà - mmaa]
[*mwan] [*mwa] [*ba] [*mbaa]
[*mwan - *mwa] [*ba - *mbaa]
[*mwã] [*mba]
[*mfã]

[Creyeditor]

New guess:

1. bæ
2. mõ
3. muaŋ
4. pa
5. wa
6. mva
7. mpà:
8. m: a:

Protoform: ɓa(:)ŋ

proto 2/3: ɓa:ŋ > moaŋ
moaŋ > moŋ > mõ
moaŋ > muaŋ

proto 6/7/8: ɓaŋ > b: a:
b: a: > b͡va: > mva
b: a: > b͡pa: > mpà:
b: a: > m͡ba: > m: a:

proto 1/4/5: ɓaŋ > ɓa
ɓa > wa
ɓa > pa
ɓa > bæ

Spoiler:

Your grouping 2/3 is correct but your intermediate form is not.
Your grouping 6/7/8 is not correct, you need to kick one out.
Your grouping 1/4/5 is not correct, you need to kick one out.
Your overall protoform is between 0% and 33% correct. You really need to think in the opposite direction.

Spoiler:

[mõ - muaŋ] [wa - mva] [bæ - pa] [mpàà - mmaa]
[*mwan] [*mwa] [*ba] [*mbaa]
[*mwan - *mwa] [*ba - *mbaa]
[*mwã] [*mba]
[*mfã]

Spoiler:

Your grouping is still correct. *mwan is almost correct. *mwa is reasonaly correct. *ba and *mbaa are still correct. *mwã is a correct intermediate form but in the wrong position in the tree. In its position it is almost correct. Your overall protoform is only 33% correct.

New Ranking
1. Arayaz, Visions
3. just a sketch, oeb eg
4. thethief

[Arayaz]

One last time:

1. bæ
2. mõ
3. muaŋ
4. pa
5. wa
6. mva
7. mpà:
8. m: a:

*mba

Spoiler:

bæ & pa (*ba)
mõ & muaŋ (*mwã)
mva & wa (*mwa)
mpàà & mmaa (*mbaa)

*mwã & mwa (*mwa)
*ba & mbaa (*mba)

*mwa & mba (*mba)

please please please

[Creyeditor]

One last time:

1. bæ
2. mõ
3. muaŋ
4. pa
5. wa
6. mva
7. mpà:
8. m: a:

*mba

Spoiler:

bæ & pa (*ba)
mõ & muaŋ (*mwã)
mva & wa (*mwa)
mpàà & mmaa (*mbaa)

*mwã & mwa (*mwa)
*ba & mbaa (*mba)

*mwa & mba (*mba)

please please please

Spoiler:

All intermediate forms and groupings are correct (or reasonably correct). The protoform is still only 66% correct.

New ranking
1. Arayaz
2. visions
3. just a sketch, oeb og
5. thethief

I am thinking about revealing it soon-ish because people are close and I don't know if you all will get any closer.

[Arayaz]

I for one can't think of anything else, so perhaps once anyone else who wants to get another guess in does, we should continue to the next round.

Random musings:

Spoiler:

I assume the *b is the part I got wrong. *mwa would work, except Visions's guess of *bwã was 0% correct, so it can't be -w-. *mva is a possibility, albeit an odd one.

I'm certain it's m?a, but it can't be *b, it can't be *w, it can't be *bʷ (cause otherwise my mbʷaŋ would've been 75% correct), it can't be *f, and I doubt it'd be *p... though perhaps *pʷ. I'm not sure, and I'm just rambling here; this isn't a guess or anything.

[Creyeditor]

You identified the problem but you need to think outside the box in order to solve it