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Noun apposition compounds in other languages
Posted: 12 Jan 2018 05:50
by Khemehekis
Before I get started with my question, an excerpt from my Kankonian grammar:
For clarification,
hous is a preposition meaning "about", "on" or "of", in the sense of "on the topic of".
Non is the Kankonian word for "for" in its sense of "with the reason being", as in "He was arrested for possession of heroin", or "::Nelson Muntz punch:: That's for besmirching an innocent girl's name", or "I want to apologize for being a jerk".
Dyu has two main uses: "by" marking the agent of a passive verb (The ball was caught by a spectator) or "by" denoting authorship (a book by E. B. White).
Now, the question. In natlangs that use a preposition or postposition with noun compounds like these (such as the
de in Spanish
fin de semana), how common is it to use an adposition other than "of"? Would "arson arrest" ever be translated as "arrest for arson"? Is "arrest of arson" ever used? How would such languages translate "Beatles album"? "Album of the Beatles"? "Album by the Beatles"?
Re: Noun apposition compounds in other languages
Posted: 12 Jan 2018 08:00
by Sequor
It's common to use other prepositions too, but I at least wouldn't quite consider these compounds to be honest, just lexical phrases. Incidentally, you can in fact say arresto por incendio provocado in Spanish.
It's worth noting that another way of translating English noun-noun compounds into other natlangs is with adjectives. E.g. house arrest -> Spanish arresto domiciliario, where domiciliario is an adjective derived from domicilio 'dwelling'.
Re: Noun apposition compounds in other languages
Posted: 12 Jan 2018 14:25
by Creyeditor
Mee (Ekari, Ekagi, Kapauku) has a lot of prepositions that are used for compounding, some of which can be translated as 'with' (comitative), 'with' (instrumental), 'of' (possessive) and several not so easy to translate locatives, e.g. 'chicken stable' is 'stable with chicken'.
I think the general idea of having them for compounds is okay, just keep in mind that prepositions often have a vague meaning or are ambigious between an abstract meaning and a concrete meaning. That might make compounding less regular. If you want to read up on languages with a general connector only used in compound like constructions 'associative marker' might be a worthwile term.
Re: Noun apposition compounds in other languages
Posted: 12 Jan 2018 18:30
by Thrice Xandvii
Is a chicken stable the same as a chicken coop? If not, what's the difference?
Re: Noun apposition compounds in other languages
Posted: 12 Jan 2018 19:29
by Creyeditor
Sorry, just my non-native English. I translated word by word from German 'Hühnerstall', shouldn't have done that.
Re: Noun apposition compounds in other languages
Posted: 13 Jan 2018 00:44
by Khemehekis
Ser wrote: ↑12 Jan 2018 08:00
It's common to use other prepositions too, but I at least wouldn't quite consider these compounds to be honest, just lexical phrases. Incidentally, you can in fact say
arresto por incendio provocado in Spanish.
Cool!
It's worth noting that another way of translating English noun-noun compounds into other natlangs is with adjectives. E.g. house arrest -> Spanish arresto domiciliario, where domiciliario is an adjective derived from domicilio 'dwelling'.
Neat!
Kankonian actually does the reverse, vis-à-vis English, with many of English's phrases. Note that the Anglo-Saxon vs. Latinate distinction of English doesn't occur with Kankonian body parts. So in Kankonian, a speaker says:
voshayid na rina
cancer of lung
lung cancer
voshayid na nogosh
cancer of breast
breast cancer
voshayid na vushem
cancer of brain
brain cancer
voshayid na khatal
cancer of skin
skin cancer
voshayid na nakarb
cancer of bone
bo
ne cancer
voshayid na *uth
cancer of liver
liver cancer
But a speaker also says:
voshayid na sokh
cancer of testicle
testicular cancer
voshayid na oopo
cancer of ovary
ovarian cancer
voshayid na boteks
cancer of cervix
cervical cancer
voshayid na phadusom
cancer of pancreas
pancreatic cancer
The word for "cervical" is
boteksi, but a Kankonian speaker would never say
voshayid boteksi.
Using
voshayid na rina because English uses "lung cancer" but
voshayid boteksi because English uses "cervical cancer" would probably be as ciphery as using
ub everywhere English uses "a" and
ug everywhere English uses "an".
Re: Noun apposition compounds in other languages
Posted: 13 Jan 2018 05:59
by DesEsseintes
Thrice Xandvii wrote: ↑12 Jan 2018 18:30
Is a chicken stable the same as a chicken coop? If not, what's the difference?
A chicken stable is for very large chickens. You know, the ones you ride. Some people call them “horses”, but that’s just silly.
Re: Noun apposition compounds in other languages
Posted: 13 Jan 2018 13:58
by lsd
Khemehekis wrote: ↑12 Jan 2018 05:50
Now, the question. In natlangs that use a preposition or postposition with noun compounds like these (such as the
de in Spanish
fin de semana), how common is it to use an adposition other than "of"?
The fact is that, in everyday language, a preposition will become universal...
Even if a whole range of prepositions is available, only one is used as blurred equivalent, as compound words adposition does...
Re: Noun apposition compounds in other languages
Posted: 16 Jan 2018 15:18
by clawgrip
Khemehekis wrote: ↑12 Jan 2018 05:50Now, the question. In natlangs that use a preposition or postposition with noun compounds like these (such as the
de in Spanish
fin de semana), how common is it to use an adposition other than "of"? Would "arson arrest" ever be translated as "arrest for arson"? Is "arrest of arson" ever used? How would such languages translate "Beatles album"? "Album of the Beatles"? "Album by the Beatles"?
If you would like to know about Japanese, if it uses an adposition/particle to form a compound noun, it will pretty much exclusively be the possessive
no. However, the nominative
ga and the genitive
no are occasionally swapped out for each other, with
no marking subjects in certain relative clauses, and, relevant to your question, with the nominative
ga very, very occasionally marking possession, e.g. 我が家
wa ga ya "my/our home". Outside of set phrases it is defunct, and is most commonly encountered in place names, e.g. 関ヶ原
Sekigahara, 千駄ヶ谷,
Sendagaya, 自由が丘
Jiyūgaoka, 袖ヶ浦
Sodegaura, etc.
Not sure if this is helpful!
Re: Noun apposition compounds in other languages
Posted: 18 Jan 2018 07:05
by Khemehekis
clawgrip wrote: ↑16 Jan 2018 15:18
If you would like to know about Japanese, if it uses an adposition/particle to form a compound noun, it will pretty much exclusively be the possessive
no. However, the nominative
ga and the genitive
no are occasionally swapped out for each other, with
no marking subjects in certain relative clauses, and, relevant to your question, with the nominative
ga very, very occasionally marking possession, e.g. 我が家
wa ga ya "my/our home". Outside of set phrases it is defunct, and is most commonly encountered in place names, e.g. 関ヶ原
Sekigahara, 千駄ヶ谷,
Sendagaya, 自由が丘
Jiyūgaoka, 袖ヶ浦
Sodegaura, etc.
Not sure if this is helpful!
Oh, this was helpful!
We learned in Japanese class that "American CD" becomes
Amerika no CD. Confusingly,
Amerika no CD can also mean "America CD", i.e. A CD by the band that does the song "Horse with No Name".
I remember learning that
ga may be used for appositives, but Hiraguri-sensei told us that this only worked when the statement was an adjectivish predication, e.g.
Purin ga Pokemon wa kawaii desu (Jigglypuff the Pokémon is cute). Or was this
Purin wa Pokemon ga kawaii desu?
Re: Noun apposition compounds in other languages
Posted: 18 Jan 2018 14:29
by clawgrip
Khemehekis wrote: ↑18 Jan 2018 07:05We learned in Japanese class that "American CD" becomes
Amerika no CD. Confusingly,
Amerika no CD can also mean "America CD", i.e. A CD by the band that does the song "Horse with No Name".
That's funny, I didn't really think about that. But it makes sense if you just consider
no to be equivalent to "of". And no, you've failed to get that song stuck in my head. Really, I am listening to something else so you can't succeed.
I remember learning that ga may be used for appositives, but Hiraguri-sensei told us that this only worked when the statement was an adjectivish predication, e.g. Purin ga Pokemon wa kawaii desu (Jigglypuff the Pokémon is cute). Or was this Purin wa Pokemon ga kawaii desu?
Your first sentence sounds strange to me, and the second one, by topicalizing "Purin" would be interpreted as "Jigglypuff thinks Pokemon are cute."
Are you sure you're not getting it backwards? The standard possessive
no can become a nominative marker in relative clauses (especially with copular predicates) and some other adjective-like phrases, e.g.:
意味がない
imi ga nai
meaning NOM exist.NEG
"(it) has no meaning/(it) is meaningless"
意味のない行動
imi no nai kōdō
meaning NOM exist.NEG behaviour
"meaningless behaviour"
Sometimes it can be ambiguous, e.g.
人の言うこと
hito no iu koto
person
no say thing
"what a person/someone says"
Is this:
hito no [iu koto]
person GEN [say thing]
"a person's said things"
or is it:
[hito no iu] koto
[person NOM say] thing
"things a person says"
Who knows!
Re: Noun apposition compounds in other languages
Posted: 21 Jan 2018 10:38
by Khemehekis
clawgrip wrote: ↑18 Jan 2018 14:29
Khemehekis wrote: ↑18 Jan 2018 07:05We learned in Japanese class that "American CD" becomes
Amerika no CD. Confusingly,
Amerika no CD can also mean "America CD", i.e. A CD by the band that does the song "Horse with No Name".
That's funny, I didn't really think about that. But it makes sense if you just consider
no to be equivalent to "of".
And no, you've failed to get that song stuck in my head. Really, I am listening to something else so you can't succeed.
Now,
that's funny!
I remember learning that ga may be used for appositives, but Hiraguri-sensei told us that this only worked when the statement was an adjectivish predication, e.g. Purin ga Pokemon wa kawaii desu (Jigglypuff the Pokémon is cute). Or was this Purin wa Pokemon ga kawaii desu?
Your first sentence sounds strange to me, and the second one, by topicalizing "Purin" would be interpreted as "Jigglypuff thinks Pokemon are cute."
Are you sure you're not getting it backwards? The standard possessive
no can become a nominative marker in relative clauses (especially with copular predicates) and some other adjective-like phrases, e.g.:
意味がない
imi ga nai
meaning NOM exist.NEG
"(it) has no meaning/(it) is meaningless"
意味のない行動
imi no nai kōdō
meaning NOM exist.NEG behaviour
"meaningless behaviour"
Sometimes it can be ambiguous, e.g.
人の言うこと
hito no iu koto
person
no say thing
"what a person/someone says"
Is this:
hito no [iu koto]
person GEN [say thing]
"a person's said things"
or is it:
[hito no iu] koto
[person NOM say] thing
"things a person says"
Who knows!
Weird! And I distinctly remember that Hiraguri-sensei told us that about
wa and
ga.
So the particle
wa can have the meaning of "to", in the sense of "To me, that sounds crazy"? That's the impression I'm getting from the "Jigglypuff thinks Pokémon are cute" interpretation. Can one say "Watashi wa Busshu-san ga baka desu" for "I think Bush is a fool"?
Re: Noun apposition compounds in other languages
Posted: 21 Jan 2018 13:32
by clawgrip
Khemehekis wrote: ↑21 Jan 2018 10:38
So the particle
wa can have the meaning of "to", in the sense of "To me, that sounds crazy"? That's the impression I'm getting from the "Jigglypuff thinks Pokémon are cute" interpretation.
That's essentially true, though it is not nearly as limited in use as that English example makes it out to be.
Can one say "Watashi wa Busshu-san ga baka desu" for "I think Bush is a fool"?
Yes, it's grammatically correct, though realistically I don't think there would be much use for this sentence (you would probably just say "Bush is a fool" most of the time) and it feels a bit tonally off. Also, if you're talking about (one of) the former president(s), it would be
Busshu-daitōryō, not
Busshu-san. Busshu-san is just some dude named Bush.
Re: Noun apposition compounds in other languages
Posted: 22 Jan 2018 00:12
by GrandPiano
Khemehekis wrote: ↑21 Jan 2018 10:38So the particle
wa can have the meaning of "to", in the sense of "To me, that sounds crazy"? That's the impression I'm getting from the "Jigglypuff thinks Pokémon are cute" interpretation. Can one say "Watashi wa Busshu-san ga baka desu" for "I think Bush is a fool"?
If I understand correctly, this is not actually a meaning of wa, but rather a meaning of ni. However, particles before wa can often be omitted, so “watashi ni wa” can become just “watashi wa”.
Re: Noun apposition compounds in other languages
Posted: 22 Jan 2018 08:53
by Khemehekis
clawgrip wrote: ↑21 Jan 2018 13:32
Can one say "Watashi wa Busshu-san ga baka desu" for "I think Bush is a fool"?
Yes, it's grammatically correct, though realistically I don't think there would be much use for this sentence (you would probably just say "Bush is a fool" most of the time)
To be honest, I was thinking about "I think . . ." statements and a sentence that my housemate Ken uses a lot ("I think Bush is a fool!") popped into mind. So the Japanese would be less likely to use "I think . . ." than Anglophones?
Also, if you're talking about (one of) the former president(s), it would be Busshu-daitōryō, not Busshu-san. Busshu-san is just some dude named Bush.
Learned a new Japanese word today:
daitōryō is "president". So Japanese speakers append it to the name of a country's president, the way you'd append
-sensei to the name of a teacher/professor?
@GrandPiano: Good to know!
Re: Noun apposition compounds in other languages
Posted: 10 Feb 2018 01:28
by Imralu
Not quite in the scope of your question but it may be interesting to you or anyone who comes here looking for info about this kind of thing:
Swahili is pretty unremarkable in basically using "of" between the nouns (although closer associations can simply be NOUN NOUN). The Swahili word for "of", however, takes prefixes depending on the noun class of the head word. Because not all noun classes are indicated unambiguously on the noun, the little "of" is sometimes tasked with marking other things than just the relationship between the two nouns.
nyumba ya wageni
nyumba y-a wageni
house(s)(CL9/10) CL9-GEN guests(CL2)
guest house
nyumba za wageni
nyumba z-a wageni
house(s)(CL9/10) CL10-GEN guests(CL2)
guest houses
nyumbani pa wageni
nyumba-ni p-a wageni
house(s)(CL9/10)-LOC(CL16/17/18) CL16-GEN guests(CL2)
(right) at the guest house(s)
nyumbani kwa wageni
nyumba-ni kw-a wageni
house(s)(CL9/10)-LOC(CL16/17/18) CL17-GEN guests(CL2)
(somewhere) at (or around) the guest house(s)
nyumbani mwa wageni
nyumba-ni mw-a wageni
house(s)(CL9/10)-LOC(CL16/17/18) CL18-GEN guests(CL2)
inside the guest house(s)
(Class 10 is the plural class of class 9 and class 16, 17 and 18 are location classes indicating exact, inexact and internal location respectively. In practice, the locative phrases for nouns qualified like this are generally avoided in preference for using a preposition before the simple non-location noun.)