Thank you!
Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
- LinguoFranco
- greek
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- Location: U.S.
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- sinic
- Posts: 404
- Joined: 21 Jul 2012 08:01
- Location: Buffalo, NY
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Something obnoxious - a tongueless phonology. Well, a tongueless consonant inventory:
/m/
/p ʔ/
/f h/
/v ʕ/
/ʕ/ is variously [ʕ~ʕ̝~ɦ~ɑ̯]
Syllable structure is (C)V(C), with any consonant permitted in coda position, but with some degree of historic and synchronic simplication and assimilation nonetheless taking place in that position, e.g. /f.h/ > /h.h/ or /ʔ.ʕ/ > /h.ʕ/. Stress is word-initial.
The vowel inventory is /i a~ə o/, with /i/ being the only significantly tongueful element in the language. /o/ involves a little bit of tongue retraction but is not extremely back - just very rounded. /a/ tends to shift to [ə], in order to compensate for the fact that /aʕ/ tends to be realized as [ɑː], especially in rapid speech and unstressed positions.
/m/
/p ʔ/
/f h/
/v ʕ/
/ʕ/ is variously [ʕ~ʕ̝~ɦ~ɑ̯]
Syllable structure is (C)V(C), with any consonant permitted in coda position, but with some degree of historic and synchronic simplication and assimilation nonetheless taking place in that position, e.g. /f.h/ > /h.h/ or /ʔ.ʕ/ > /h.ʕ/. Stress is word-initial.
The vowel inventory is /i a~ə o/, with /i/ being the only significantly tongueful element in the language. /o/ involves a little bit of tongue retraction but is not extremely back - just very rounded. /a/ tends to shift to [ə], in order to compensate for the fact that /aʕ/ tends to be realized as [ɑː], especially in rapid speech and unstressed positions.
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
I remember posing this on a board, years ago. Made one guy go kinda nuts thinking about what he could do with this: tone, suprasegmentals, etc.
Better question is, can you survive without a tongue? I'm sure you can, but I imagine it would be aesthetically dull and rather hard. Thankfully, that one a-hole in The Mummy died soon after having his removed.
Baahm uuuu, Aahm-hoh-paahp! ("Damn you, Imhotep!")
Better question is, can you survive without a tongue? I'm sure you can, but I imagine it would be aesthetically dull and rather hard. Thankfully, that one a-hole in The Mummy died soon after having his removed.
Baahm uuuu, Aahm-hoh-paahp! ("Damn you, Imhotep!")
𖥑𖧨𖣫𖦺𖣦𖢋𖤼𖥃𖣔𖣋𖢅𖡹𖡨𖡶𖡦𖡧𖡚𖠨
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
/p t c k q/ p t č k ķ
/f s ʃ x X h/ f s x q h
/ʦ ʧ/ j c
/m n ɲ ŋ ɴ/ m n ñ ŋ ṅ
/β̞ ð̞ j ɥ w ɰ ʁ̞ ʕ̞/ b d j ÿ ẅ w g ḥ
/l ʎ/ l ł
/r ʀ/ r ṙ
/i u e o a/ i u e o a
/f s ʃ x X h/ f s x q h
/ʦ ʧ/ j c
/m n ɲ ŋ ɴ/ m n ñ ŋ ṅ
/β̞ ð̞ j ɥ w ɰ ʁ̞ ʕ̞/ b d j ÿ ẅ w g ḥ
/l ʎ/ l ł
/r ʀ/ r ṙ
/i u e o a/ i u e o a
- Frislander
- mayan
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/
/pː tː t͡s kː/
/s/
/sː/
/m n l j w/
/mː nː lː/
/i u/
/e ə o/
/a/
Syllable structure is (C)(G)V(N), where C is any consonant, G is a glide, and N is one of /m l/, where /m/ assimilates to the POA of a following obstruent. Onset-less syllables are restricted to word-initial /a/, with other vowels being found with homeorganic glides and schwa being entirely absent from this position. /i u/ in particular appear to pattern as if they are always found with a glide /j w/, i.e. they're always found as /ji wi ju wu/.
/pː tː t͡s kː/
/s/
/sː/
/m n l j w/
/mː nː lː/
/i u/
/e ə o/
/a/
Syllable structure is (C)(G)V(N), where C is any consonant, G is a glide, and N is one of /m l/, where /m/ assimilates to the POA of a following obstruent. Onset-less syllables are restricted to word-initial /a/, with other vowels being found with homeorganic glides and schwa being entirely absent from this position. /i u/ in particular appear to pattern as if they are always found with a glide /j w/, i.e. they're always found as /ji wi ju wu/.
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
I keep changing my mind about the phonology of this not-so-new project. Right now I have:
/m n/
/p t t͡s k q/
/tʼ t͡sʼ kʼ qʼ/
/s h/
/l/
/j w/
/i u/
/e o/
/a/
/e o/ might actually be [ɛ] and [ɔ].
/w/ is [ʍ] before voiceless consonants and at the end of a word.
Syllable structure is (C)(wj)V(S) where S is one of /s h m n l w j/. Coda /h/ can only appear word-finally. Not sure about /j/. Any sequence of two or more vowels is pronounced as separate syllables.
I'm still trying to figure out which clusters are allowed.
Stress is usually word-initial, but there are some exceptions because of specific prefixes that cannot take stress.
If anyone has any thoughts or comments, I'd love to hear them!
/m n/
/p t t͡s k q/
/tʼ t͡sʼ kʼ qʼ/
/s h/
/l/
/j w/
/i u/
/e o/
/a/
/e o/ might actually be [ɛ] and [ɔ].
/w/ is [ʍ] before voiceless consonants and at the end of a word.
Syllable structure is (C)(wj)V(S) where S is one of /s h m n l w j/. Coda /h/ can only appear word-finally. Not sure about /j/. Any sequence of two or more vowels is pronounced as separate syllables.
I'm still trying to figure out which clusters are allowed.
Stress is usually word-initial, but there are some exceptions because of specific prefixes that cannot take stress.
This makes me want to have /t͡sʼ/ without /t͡s/, but I'm not sure. Maybe having no /pʼ/ is breaking the symmetry enough already?Frislander wrote: ↑11 Apr 2019 18:36 languages with both ejectives and affricates tend to be more likely to have only ejective affricates than non-ejective ones (see the Salishan family, which universally has /t͡ɬ’/ but almost as universally lacks its non-ejective counterpart), as well as many others such as Sandawe in Africa.
If anyone has any thoughts or comments, I'd love to hear them!
- LinguoFranco
- greek
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
/m n ŋ/
/p t k ʔ/
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/
/s h/
/l r/
/j ʋ/
/t͡s/
/i iː ʊ uː/
/e eː/
/a aː/
It has a CV(C) syllable structure, with the allowed codae being /ŋ ʔ k l t/
/p t k ʔ/
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/
/s h/
/l r/
/j ʋ/
/t͡s/
/i iː ʊ uː/
/e eː/
/a aː/
It has a CV(C) syllable structure, with the allowed codae being /ŋ ʔ k l t/
- DesEsseintes
- mongolian
- Posts: 4331
- Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Those are both good ideas. Having only an ejective affricate is fine (as Frislander had pointed out), and /p’/ is the most likely gap in an ejective series. Some languages that feature glottalisation have implosive rather than ejective stops at the labial, and sometimes also dental/alveolar, PoAs.
As for the symmetry, you can arrange your inventory like this:
/m n/
/p t s k q/
/t’ ts’ k’ q’/
/h ʔ/
/l j w/
Only one gap. And now glottals are their own category. Oh wait, you didn’t have a glottal stop in your original inventory. Add one?
I’ll stop interfering now.
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
No, don't I asked for opinions and this is very helpful, thanks!DesEsseintes wrote: ↑23 May 2019 04:11 As for the symmetry, you can arrange your inventory like this:
/m n/
/p t s k q/
/t’ ts’ k’ q’/
/h ʔ/
/l j w/
Only one gap. And now glottals are their own category. Oh wait, you didn’t have a glottal stop in your original inventory. Add one?
I’ll stop interfering now.
I did originally have a glottal stop but dropped it out in order to have tons of vowel hiatus everywhere. I really like having /ts’/ correspond to /s/,although I feel like the phonotactics will have to change a lot if I do this.
- DesEsseintes
- mongolian
- Posts: 4331
- Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
I like this a lot:
/m n/ m n
/m’ n’/ m̌ ň
/p t t͡s t͡ʃ k ʔ/ p t c ch k ’
/p’ t’ t͡s’ t͡ʃ’ k’/ p’ t’ c’ ch’ k’
/s ʃ x h/ s sh x h
/z ʒ ɣ/ z zh g
/j w/ y w
/j’ w’/ y̌ w̌
/a e i o u/ a e i o u
/aː eː oː/ á é ó
/ãː õː/ ã õ
There’s just so much about this that’s so not me:
- five vowels (five!)
- nasal vowels
- acutes for length
- /p/
- no tone
- no lateral fricative
I feel all fresh.
/m n/ m n
/m’ n’/ m̌ ň
/p t t͡s t͡ʃ k ʔ/ p t c ch k ’
/p’ t’ t͡s’ t͡ʃ’ k’/ p’ t’ c’ ch’ k’
/s ʃ x h/ s sh x h
/z ʒ ɣ/ z zh g
/j w/ y w
/j’ w’/ y̌ w̌
/a e i o u/ a e i o u
/aː eː oː/ á é ó
/ãː õː/ ã õ
There’s just so much about this that’s so not me:
- five vowels (five!)
- nasal vowels
- acutes for length
- /p/
- no tone
- no lateral fricative
I feel all fresh.
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
/t t͡ʃ k ᵐb ⁿd m n ŋ s x ɾ j w i u e o ɛ ɔ a/ with (C/Cl)V(C)
Cl is an onset cluster, the permissible ones being most Cy except *cy ty* (which>c), all Cw, and *br dr tr kr*
in dialetto 1: coda *t c k b d s h* impart high tone (the first five from an intermediate stage of checking the vowel), all codas to zero with compensatory lengthening only on final vowels. *br dr tr kr* merge into *by dy ty ky* (so only historic tr is distinguished still).
in dialetto 2: ê ô merge into e o. onset clusters resolve to just the second C in the cluster. any sequences of two occlusive consonants assimilate to a geminate of the second. *s h* to /h/ initially
both written <t c k b d m n g s h r y w i u ê ô e o a>
a historic /f/ was banned by the 38th edict of daemyêkahki araô (daemyêkáki araô; daeyekakki arao) abt 400 year-eqs ago, after his aunt, a leading member of a rebellion in cuêrkya (cuêkya; cuerya) to the north, was executed (historic mergers of a good amount of consonants (occlusives labial, labiovelar, and some dental) to f in the lect of cuêrkya, related to this lect, made them a common target for mocking). this was ineffective outside of a few areas but /f/ was already in decline, merging to h>0 almost completely by 300YeqA.
Cl is an onset cluster, the permissible ones being most Cy except *cy ty* (which>c), all Cw, and *br dr tr kr*
in dialetto 1: coda *t c k b d s h* impart high tone (the first five from an intermediate stage of checking the vowel), all codas to zero with compensatory lengthening only on final vowels. *br dr tr kr* merge into *by dy ty ky* (so only historic tr is distinguished still).
in dialetto 2: ê ô merge into e o. onset clusters resolve to just the second C in the cluster. any sequences of two occlusive consonants assimilate to a geminate of the second. *s h* to /h/ initially
both written <t c k b d m n g s h r y w i u ê ô e o a>
a historic /f/ was banned by the 38th edict of daemyêkahki araô (daemyêkáki araô; daeyekakki arao) abt 400 year-eqs ago, after his aunt, a leading member of a rebellion in cuêrkya (cuêkya; cuerya) to the north, was executed (historic mergers of a good amount of consonants (occlusives labial, labiovelar, and some dental) to f in the lect of cuêrkya, related to this lect, made them a common target for mocking). this was ineffective outside of a few areas but /f/ was already in decline, merging to h>0 almost completely by 300YeqA.
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- cuneiform
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
So I have this phonology for a proto-lang.
I was wondering: should I include a voiceless velar fricative /x/ and a voiceless lateral fricative /ɬ/ to complement /ɣ/ and /l/ in the same way that /r̥/ currently complements /r/?
Options:
1. Leave it as it is.
2. Add /ɬ/
3. Add /ɬ/ and /x/
Code: Select all
lbl alvlr pltl vlr glttl
stop plain p t k
labialised pʷ tʷ kʷ
palatilised pʲ tʲ kʲ
(af)fricative plain ɸ β t͡s s ç ɣ h
labialised t͡sʷ sʷ
palatilised t͡sʲ sʲ
nasal m n ŋ
liquid l j
trills r̥ r
Options:
1. Leave it as it is.
2. Add /ɬ/
3. Add /ɬ/ and /x/
- DesEsseintes
- mongolian
- Posts: 4331
- Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
What I have so far on a consonant inventory I’m assembling this evening; I’m aiming for a very large number of continuants with a minimal amount of occlusives.
/m n ŋ ŋʷ/
/t k kʷ ʔ ʔʷ/
/s̪ s̠ ɕ h hʷ/
/ɸ θ ɻ̊/
/β ð ɻ/
/ɬ̪ ɬ̠ ʎ̥/
/l̪ l̠ ʎ/
/j w/
I originally thought I’d just do five vowels, but I’m having doubts. We’ll see.
/m n ŋ ŋʷ/
/t k kʷ ʔ ʔʷ/
/s̪ s̠ ɕ h hʷ/
/ɸ θ ɻ̊/
/β ð ɻ/
/ɬ̪ ɬ̠ ʎ̥/
/l̪ l̠ ʎ/
/j w/
I originally thought I’d just do five vowels, but I’m having doubts. We’ll see.
Edit: Decided to make a table, because it's so much more satisfying:
A wild prenasalised stop and its affricate friend also somehow managed to sneak their way in there.
Code: Select all
m n ⁿɖ ⁿd͡ʑ ŋ ŋʷ
t k kʷ ʔ ʔʷ
s̪ s̠ ɕ h hʷ
ɸ θ ɻ̊
β ð ɻ
ɬ̪ ɬ̠ ʎ̥
l̪ l̠ ʎ
j w
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
A language orthographically inspired by West African languages.
/m n ɲ ŋ/ m n ɲ ŋ
/p ƥ b ɓ t ƭ d ɗ c ƈ ɟ ʄ k ƙ g ɠ/ p ƥ b ɓ t ƭ d ɗ c ƈ j ƴ k ƙ g ɠ
/ɸ β s z ʃ ʒ x ɣ h ɦ/ f v s z ʃ ʒ x ɣ h ɦ
/ʧ ʤ/ ꞔ ʝ
/j w/ y/i w/u
/l/ l
/r/ r
/i ɨ ʉ u ɪ ɪ̈ ʊ̈ ʊ e ə ɵ o ɛ ɜ ɞ ɔ a ɶ ɑ ɒ/ i ɨ ʉ u ɩ ɪ ꞷ ʊ/ʋ e ǝ ɵ o ɛ ɜ ꞝ ɔ a ɞ ɑ ɒ
Long vowels, indicated by doubling,
/a˩ a˧ a˥ a˩˥ a˥˩/ à a á ǎ â
@DesEissentes
I think for vowels you could do /i e o a/ or /e o a/ and I love the contrast between dental and lowered/retroflexish sibilants (or whatever the line under them is), laterals, and lateral fricatives.
/m n ɲ ŋ/ m n ɲ ŋ
/p ƥ b ɓ t ƭ d ɗ c ƈ ɟ ʄ k ƙ g ɠ/ p ƥ b ɓ t ƭ d ɗ c ƈ j ƴ k ƙ g ɠ
/ɸ β s z ʃ ʒ x ɣ h ɦ/ f v s z ʃ ʒ x ɣ h ɦ
/ʧ ʤ/ ꞔ ʝ
/j w/ y/i w/u
/l/ l
/r/ r
/i ɨ ʉ u ɪ ɪ̈ ʊ̈ ʊ e ə ɵ o ɛ ɜ ɞ ɔ a ɶ ɑ ɒ/ i ɨ ʉ u ɩ ɪ ꞷ ʊ/ʋ e ǝ ɵ o ɛ ɜ ꞝ ɔ a ɞ ɑ ɒ
Long vowels, indicated by doubling,
/a˩ a˧ a˥ a˩˥ a˥˩/ à a á ǎ â
@DesEissentes
I think for vowels you could do /i e o a/ or /e o a/ and I love the contrast between dental and lowered/retroflexish sibilants (or whatever the line under them is), laterals, and lateral fricatives.
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- sinic
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- Location: Buffalo, NY
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Initials:
/m n/ <m n>
/p t̪ ts tʃ k ʔ/ <p t ts ch k ∅>
/b d̪ dz dʒ g/ <b d dz j g>
/f θ s ʃ x h/ <f th s sh kh h>
/v ð z ʒ ɣ/ <v dh z zh gh>
/l̥ ɾ̥ j̊ w̥/ <lh rh yh wh>
/l ɾ j w/ <l r y w>
Finals:
/i e a o u ə/ <i e a o u ea>
/ai̯ au̯/ <ai au>
/eŋ aŋ oŋ əŋ/ <en an on ean>
Been a long time since I messed around with a larger inventory with European-like voiced fricative series, but (in a variation on a different idea I may have posted about here) I want to do a thing where each lexeme is basically just C+rhyme, no tone, though with a number of paradigmatic alternations, like C+e/ai̯/i or C+eŋ/aŋ. Currently this gives me 384 possible phonological words, meaning there will have to be fewer roots. I might add a bit more to the initials inventory - maybe an ejective series? Or retroflex? Or maybe permit a very limited number of clusters? I'll also probably have to rework the finals a little bit.
/m n/ <m n>
/p t̪ ts tʃ k ʔ/ <p t ts ch k ∅>
/b d̪ dz dʒ g/ <b d dz j g>
/f θ s ʃ x h/ <f th s sh kh h>
/v ð z ʒ ɣ/ <v dh z zh gh>
/l̥ ɾ̥ j̊ w̥/ <lh rh yh wh>
/l ɾ j w/ <l r y w>
Finals:
/i e a o u ə/ <i e a o u ea>
/ai̯ au̯/ <ai au>
/eŋ aŋ oŋ əŋ/ <en an on ean>
Been a long time since I messed around with a larger inventory with European-like voiced fricative series, but (in a variation on a different idea I may have posted about here) I want to do a thing where each lexeme is basically just C+rhyme, no tone, though with a number of paradigmatic alternations, like C+e/ai̯/i or C+eŋ/aŋ. Currently this gives me 384 possible phonological words, meaning there will have to be fewer roots. I might add a bit more to the initials inventory - maybe an ejective series? Or retroflex? Or maybe permit a very limited number of clusters? I'll also probably have to rework the finals a little bit.
- DesEsseintes
- mongolian
- Posts: 4331
- Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Thanks for the suggestion. Yes, you may be right that /a e o/ would work well here.
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
p t k <p t k>
b d g <b d g>
f s <f s>
z ɹ̝ <z r>
ʋ ɣ~ʁ <v q>
y i u
yø ie uo
ø e o
ä
b d g <b d g>
f s <f s>
z ɹ̝ <z r>
ʋ ɣ~ʁ <v q>
y i u
yø ie uo
ø e o
ä
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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- sinic
- Posts: 404
- Joined: 21 Jul 2012 08:01
- Location: Buffalo, NY
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Posted something very similar to this a while back but oh well:
Code: Select all
ma me mi mə mɨ
mʷa mʷe mʷi mo mu
na nə nɨ
ɲe ɲi
nʷa nʷe nʷi no nu
pa pe pi po pu
ta tə tɨ
tʃe tʃi
tʷa tʷe tʷi to tu
ka ke ki kə kɨ
kʷa kʷe kʷi ko ku
ʔa ʔe ʔi ʔə ʔɨ
sa sə sɨ
ʃe ʃi
sʷa sʷe sʷi so su
ɾa ɾe ɾi ɾə ɾɨ
lʷa lʷe lʷi lo lu
wa we wi wo wu
ja je ji jə jɨ
- DesEsseintes
- mongolian
- Posts: 4331
- Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Quite enjoying the evolution of your syllable inventories.Porphyrogenitos wrote: ↑09 Jun 2019 21:42 Posted something very similar to this a while back but oh well:
Code: Select all
ma me mi mə mɨ mʷa mʷe mʷi mo mu na nə nɨ ɲe ɲi nʷa nʷe nʷi no nu pa pe pi po pu ta tə tɨ tʃe tʃi tʷa tʷe tʷi to tu ka ke ki kə kɨ kʷa kʷe kʷi ko ku ʔa ʔe ʔi ʔə ʔɨ sa sə sɨ ʃe ʃi sʷa sʷe sʷi so su ɾa ɾe ɾi ɾə ɾɨ lʷa lʷe lʷi lo lu wa we wi wo wu ja je ji jə jɨ
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Thinking about something like this, at least for consonants and clusters:
/m n ɳ ŋ/
/p t c k/
/b d ɟ g/
/f s ɕ x/ (which are voiced between vowels, appearing as [v z ʝ ɣ])
/ɹ j w/
So, onset clusters have to be completely made of consonants of the same POA (more or less), and they appear in just one phonemic "shape", i.e. a non-approximant followed by an approximant, but their phonemic realisation varies, such that:
/mw nɹ ɳj ŋw/
/pw tɹ cj kw/
/bw dɹ ɟj gw/
/fw sɹ ɕj xw/
... are realised as:
[mbw ndɹ ɳɟj ŋgw]
[pfw tsɹ cɕj kxw]
[bw dɹ ɟj gw]
[vw zɹ ʝj ɣw]
The only consonants which can appear as codas are the approximants and an underspecified nasal /N/, which primarily appears as nasalisation of the preceding vowel. The approximant coda don't have to match the POA of following sounds, so a cluster like [ɹ.mbw] is permissible.
It's not much, but I think it's a nice little extra something for what's effectively just a C(R)V(R) syllable structure.
/m n ɳ ŋ/
/p t c k/
/b d ɟ g/
/f s ɕ x/ (which are voiced between vowels, appearing as [v z ʝ ɣ])
/ɹ j w/
So, onset clusters have to be completely made of consonants of the same POA (more or less), and they appear in just one phonemic "shape", i.e. a non-approximant followed by an approximant, but their phonemic realisation varies, such that:
/mw nɹ ɳj ŋw/
/pw tɹ cj kw/
/bw dɹ ɟj gw/
/fw sɹ ɕj xw/
... are realised as:
[mbw ndɹ ɳɟj ŋgw]
[pfw tsɹ cɕj kxw]
[bw dɹ ɟj gw]
[vw zɹ ʝj ɣw]
The only consonants which can appear as codas are the approximants and an underspecified nasal /N/, which primarily appears as nasalisation of the preceding vowel. The approximant coda don't have to match the POA of following sounds, so a cluster like [ɹ.mbw] is permissible.
It's not much, but I think it's a nice little extra something for what's effectively just a C(R)V(R) syllable structure.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.