Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Posted: 15 Oct 2017 19:45
These aren't necessarily rare, but among some of my favorites are: 為, 耳, 歡, 力, 斤, 本, 或, 門, 子, 的, 阿, 甚 and 走.
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Iyionaku wrote: And of course, there is still this beauty. You might want to use it. I fell in love with it at first sight (although it's not standardized and not included in Unicode):
Is this the one that refers to a type of noodle or something?KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:Ah yes, biáng. Love that one. It needs to be added to the font!
A character that's sadly still not in unicode! A friend of mine speaks fluent Mandarin but probably only knows like 5% of the characters used everyday. Even he knew what the character meant as soon as I showed it to him.KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:Yeah, biáng biáng noodles are a local Shaanxi food and they have this complicated character for it
My impression is that from a generativist perspective, agreement based purely on proximity like this would not considered to be explainable by grammar rules. They can be explained as production errors, like typos in writing.Dormouse559 wrote:I asked this question years ago, but I don't think I was able to express myself clearly then.
To start, I'll explain what led me to my question. In English, speakers occasionally appear to make a verb agree with the final noun in the subject phrase (or maybe the final noun before the verb) rather than the head of that phrase. I gave as my example last time "A box of nuts and bolts were found". On its own, this looks like a counter-ish phenomenon, akin to "A lot of nuts and bolts were found".
But I have the sense what I'm talking about can extend well beyond that. Just now, I heard someone in an interview on water quality say, "Groundwater from ash basins are not impacting neighbors' wells." In that sentence, "are" is agreeing with "ash basins" instead of the ostensible head of the subject phrase, "groundwater". And "groundwater" isn't likely to be a counter.
I'll note this construction is normal in everyday speech, but you will get marked off if you use either "A box of nuts and bolts were found" or that "groundwater" sentence in English class. Also, while I'm open to a debate about whether this "proximity-based agreement" is actually a thing in English, I'm mainly using English as a starting point for my main question.
So with that, my question is: Is a thing like "proximity-based agreement" attested in natlangs, and if so, are there any where it is accepted broadly or at least in a prestige variety?
Just so you know, it appears that it’s actually nàng, not náng.KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:I love 齉 personally (náng, meaning "snuffling, speaking with a blocked nose", sounds like onomatopoeia?), and this one is in unicode.
A perfectly understandable misreading, IMHO (囊, c'mon); I bet natives do it, too. -- Native speaker squeeze up for the weekend; we'll see how well he fares.KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:Dàng. I was trying to be all accurate too. Good to know, though.
I actually think that this phenomenon was a major argument in some generativSumelic wrote:My impression is that from a generativist perspective[...]Dormouse559 wrote:I asked this question years ago, but I don't think I was able to express myself clearly then.
To start, I'll explain what led me to my question. In English, speakers occasionally appear to make a verb agree with the final noun in the subject phrase (or maybe the final noun before the verb) rather than the head of that phrase. I gave as my example last time "A box of nuts and bolts were found". On its own, this looks like a counter-ish phenomenon, akin to "A lot of nuts and bolts were found".
But I have the sense what I'm talking about can extend well beyond that. Just now, I heard someone in an interview on water quality say, "Groundwater from ash basins are not impacting neighbors' wells." In that sentence, "are" is agreeing with "ash basins" instead of the ostensible head of the subject phrase, "groundwater". And "groundwater" isn't likely to be a counter.
I'll note this construction is normal in everyday speech, but you will get marked off if you use either "A box of nuts and bolts were found" or that "groundwater" sentence in English class. Also, while I'm open to a debate about whether this "proximity-based agreement" is actually a thing in English, I'm mainly using English as a starting point for my main question.
So with that, my question is: Is a thing like "proximity-based agreement" attested in natlangs, and if so, are there any where it is accepted broadly or at least in a prestige variety?
Case attraction happened pretty commonly in Ancient Greek, where words bore the same case as the head noun as opposed to what would be technically expected.Dormouse559 wrote:I asked this question years ago, but I don't think I was able to express myself clearly then.
To start, I'll explain what led me to my question. In English, speakers occasionally appear to make a verb agree with the final noun in the subject phrase (or maybe the final noun before the verb) rather than the head of that phrase. I gave as my example last time "A box of nuts and bolts were found". On its own, this looks like a counter-ish phenomenon, akin to "A lot of nuts and bolts were found".
But I have the sense what I'm talking about can extend well beyond that. Just now, I heard someone in an interview on water quality say, "Groundwater from ash basins are not impacting neighbors' wells." In that sentence, "are" is agreeing with "ash basins" instead of the ostensible head of the subject phrase, "groundwater". And "groundwater" isn't likely to be a counter.
I'll note this construction is normal in everyday speech, but you will get marked off if you use either "A box of nuts and bolts were found" or that "groundwater" sentence in English class. Also, while I'm open to a debate about whether this "proximity-based agreement" is actually a thing in English, I'm mainly using English as a starting point for my main question.
So with that, my question is: Is a thing like "proximity-based agreement" attested in natlangs, and if so, are there any where it is accepted broadly or at least in a prestige variety?
For me, it always just sounded like the person had lost track of the sentence part way through. But for a while, I've had the sneaking suspicion it's not necessarily an error. At least, it didn't make complete sense to automatically write it off. Don't want to miss a fun conlang idea if I can help it.Axiem wrote:While proximity-based agreement is a thing I've heard in English, I also tend to associate it with a lower level of education/intelligence. But I also am a bit of a snobbish bitch when it comes to things like that, though it's an attitude I've been trying to stop having.
Sumelic wrote:My impression is that from a generativist perspective, agreement based purely on proximity like this would not considered to be explainable by grammar rules. They can be explained as production errors, like typos in writing.
There are other things that could be characterized as "proximity agreement" that are at least to some degree standard, but they are sensitive to the syntactic structure of the utterance, unlike the examples you gave. E.g. there's "closest conjunct agreement". Actually, in English, the typical prescriptivist answer about agreement in sentences with disjunct subjects is to make the verb agree with the closer (i.e. in a declarative sentence, latter) one, e.g. "Either the bottle or the cups are empty", "Either the cups or the bottle is empty", although the awkwardness of this means that some people just recommend restructuring.
I've got to admit I haven't read up much on linguistic theory, but this does seem like something to look into.Creyeditor wrote:I actually think that this phenomenon was a major argument in some generativpaperbook about why person and number agreement are fundamentally different. So I guess there is some way this could be derived in some generative theory.Edit: IIRC, it was in this book.
Znex wrote:Case attraction happened pretty commonly in Ancient Greek, where words bore the same case as the head noun as opposed to what would be technically expected.
Oh, neat, I hadn't heard of that. I did a quick Google search, and this article also talks about "inverse attraction", where the antecedent of a relative pronoun agrees with the pronoun.KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:Yeah it did remind me of case attraction, which happens in Latin too. It's basically "number attraction" in English.
Yep, he read it náng .Lao Kou wrote:A perfectly understandable misreading, IMHO (囊, c'mon); I bet natives do it, too. -- Native speaker squeeze up for the weekend; we'll see how well he fares.KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:Dàng. I was trying to be all accurate too. Good to know, though.GrandPiano wrote:Just so you know, it appears that it’s actually nàng, not náng.KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:I love 齉 personally (náng, meaning "snuffling, speaking with a blocked nose", sounds like onomatopoeia?), and this one is in unicode.
I will create a new question out of this thread: How common is it to confuse tones for native speakers? Does it occur regularly with rare characters?Lao Kou wrote:Yep, he read it náng .Lao Kou wrote:A perfectly understandable misreading, IMHO (囊, c'mon); I bet natives do it, too. -- Native speaker squeeze up for the weekend; we'll see how well he fares.KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:Dàng. I was trying to be all accurate too. Good to know, though.GrandPiano wrote:Just so you know, it appears that it’s actually nàng, not náng.KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:I love 齉 personally (náng, meaning "snuffling, speaking with a blocked nose", sounds like onomatopoeia?), and this one is in unicode.
I don't know how common it is, and I can only speak anecdotally, but I'd guess as it's not only about taking a stab at a character you don't know and getting the tone wrong (of which 齉 is a good example -- either GrandPiano is a master at el obscuro characters about nasal congestion, or he went running to the dictionary like the rest of us and found out it was actually fourth tone), but also about taking a stab at a character you don't know and getting the phonetic component wrong altogether (of which my surname 彄 is an example -- constantly, but understandably misread qū at first blush to the uninitiated rather than kōu.), it's pretty dàng common.Iyionaku wrote:I will create a new question out of this thread: How common is it to confuse tones for native speakers? Does it occur regularly with rare characters?