(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here [2010-2020]

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
Davush
greek
greek
Posts: 671
Joined: 10 Jan 2015 14:10

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Davush »

In a language which does not mark definiteness via morphology / articles, is there any correlation between word order and definiteness? I.e. is a definite object more likely to appear before or after the verb than an indefinite one?
User avatar
WeepingElf
greek
greek
Posts: 531
Joined: 23 Feb 2016 18:42
Location: Braunschweig, Germany
Contact:

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by WeepingElf »

Pabappa wrote: 07 Oct 2018 14:53
Omzinesý wrote: 07 Oct 2018 10:46
Zekoslav wrote: 07 Oct 2018 10:10 Old High German used <z> to represent the laminal /s/ derived from PG. *t, while using <s> to represent the apical /s̺/ derived from PG. *s, which later becomes /ʃ/ in word-initial consonant clusters. That could be used as a precedent for writing /s/, /ʃ/ as <z>, <s>, if your orthography was established after the chain shift.
Was German /ts/ <z> really a sibilant in some state of the language? Or do I misunderstood you.
I think the spelling has changed. Plain <z> was a fricative, <zz> was an affricate, and much of what is <tz> today was <zz> then.apparently the spelling was just loose .... They used z for both fricatives and affricates, both single and double.
Yes. Both sounds were results of the High German consonant shift (from /t/), and allophones of each other: in some positions, /t/ became an affricate, in others a fricative, in yet others it was unchanged. Hence, both the affricate and the sibilant could be, and were, represented by the same letter. Only when the two sibilant fricatives merged in Early Modern German, the spelling <ts> was restricted to /ts/.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
My conlang pages
holbuzvala
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 189
Joined: 01 Jan 2017 14:03

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by holbuzvala »

@Davush
In a language which does not mark definiteness via morphology / articles, is there any correlation between word order and definiteness? I.e. is a definite object more likely to appear before or after the verb than an indefinite one?
I can't say for sure with regards to general trends cross-linguistically about definiteness-meets-word-order, but Russian certainly seems to use word order to describe salience, which is akin to definiteness, via word order as follows (and forgive the blasé Romanisation orthography):

1. sabaka laet
DOG.nom.s BARK.imperfective.present
The dog is barking.

2. laet sabaka
BARK.imperfective.present DOG.nom.s
A dog is barking.

It seems that the 'known' bit of information comes first, with the new information coming after. You'd use sentence 1 if you had a dog and it was barking. Sentence 2, meanwhile, would be used if you were walking down a street and heard a dog barking. Ergo, 'definiteness' via word order. Be this as it may for Russian, you could construe your conlang to have it such that the 'newest' information comes first in a sentence.

Onto your question specifically about the placement direct objects before or after verbs, my hunch is that it could be either way around. In my conlang Asvolai, SOV word order is the general word order, but one can use SVO to make it explicit that the object is new-to-the-discourse/unspecified/'indefinite'. This harkens back to the Russian-esque idea that the newest information comes nearer the end of the sentence. (though I imagine your conlang's word order might affect the choice of having the direct object before or after the verb. Things could get whacky with a V2 setup, or if you have auxiliary verbs bouncing about. You could also have a special auxiliary for definite/indefinite object; or even have the verb conjugate differently for definite/indefinite direct objects. I'd carefully consider what you mean by 'definite', and maybe read around how articles vary across languages, like the 'al' in Arabic). I hope this was helpful!
yangfiretiger121
sinic
sinic
Posts: 337
Joined: 17 Jun 2018 03:04

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

Dhoan will feature allophonic, word-initial length distinction. As of now, it only affects one syllable words, like anx [ɑ̟̃ːx]. Is this or all word-initial vowels being lengthened more natural?

Does nasalization carry across moraic boundaries? For example, Kymal being pronounced [ˈkʊ.mɑ̟l] without nasalization or [ˈkʊ̃.ɑ̟l] with nasalization.
Alien conlangs (Font may be needed for Vai symbols)
User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2945
Joined: 10 Nov 2012 20:52
Location: California

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 »

holbuzvala wrote: 07 Oct 2018 13:47 Why is it that in French, most adjectives follow nouns, but (what I would describe as) 'generic' adjectives preceed the nouns they describe?
Cross-linguistically, it's not uncommon to treat a certain subset of adjectives differently. In languages with closed adjective classes, these meanings may be the only true adjectives in the language, and in an open-adjective language like French, they might behave differently. A Conlanger's Thesaurus has a section about it and lists these types of meanings: "DIMENSION (‘big,’ ‘tall,’ ‘deep’, etc.), AGE (‘new,’ ‘young,’ etc.), VALUE (‘good,’ ‘bad,’ ‘real,’ ‘curious,’ etc.) and COLOR … PHYSICAL PROPERTY (‘soft,’ ‘wet,’ ‘hot,’ ‘sweet,’ etc.), HUMAN PROPENSITY (‘jealous,’ ‘clever,’ ‘ashamed,’ etc.) and SPEED (‘fast,’ ‘slow,’ etc.)."

French's fronted adjectives mostly fit into the first three categories, and I imagine the words for beauty fit into "PHYSICAL PROPERTY".
Porphyrogenitos
sinic
sinic
Posts: 401
Joined: 21 Jul 2012 08:01
Location: Buffalo, NY

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

yangfiretiger121 wrote: 07 Oct 2018 21:19 Dhoan will feature allophonic, word-initial length distinction. As of now, it only affects one syllable words, like anx [ɑ̟̃ːx]. Is this or all word-initial vowels being lengthened more natural?
Well, firstly, if it's just allophonic, it's not a distinction. Your phrasing tripped me up there. You can just say "allophonic word-initial lengthening". I'm not personally sure how natural or plausible those conditions are, maybe someone else can comment on that, but it doesn't sound beyond the pale, certainly.
yangfiretiger121 wrote: 07 Oct 2018 21:19 Does nasalization carry across moraic boundaries? For example, Kymal being pronounced [ˈkʊ.mɑ̟l] without nasalization or [ˈkʊ̃.ɑ̟l] with nasalization.
That's entirely specific to the phonology of the language. Some languages have nasalization spread across the entire word (nasal harmony), others don't have nasalization at all.
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10373
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar »

Porphyrogenitos wrote: 08 Oct 2018 01:46
yangfiretiger121 wrote: 07 Oct 2018 21:19 Dhoan will feature allophonic, word-initial length distinction. As of now, it only affects one syllable words, like anx [ɑ̟̃ːx]. Is this or all word-initial vowels being lengthened more natural?
Well, firstly, if it's just allophonic, it's not a distinction. Your phrasing tripped me up there. You can just say "allophonic word-initial lengthening".
[+1]
Porphyrogenitos wrote: 08 Oct 2018 01:46 I'm not personally sure how natural or plausible those conditions are, maybe someone else can comment on that, but it doesn't sound beyond the pale, certainly.
Having vowels lengthen in monosyllabic words, at least when those single syllables are open, isn't weird at all.

If you have (or, I suppose, had historically) initial stress, then lengthening vowels in initial syllables definitely makes sense. Otherwise, I'm not sure.
yangfiretiger121
sinic
sinic
Posts: 337
Joined: 17 Jun 2018 03:04

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

shimobaatar wrote: 08 Oct 2018 02:57
Porphyrogenitos wrote: 08 Oct 2018 01:46
yangfiretiger121 wrote: 07 Oct 2018 21:19 Dhoan will feature allophonic, word-initial length distinction. As of now, it only affects one syllable words, like anx [ɑ̟̃ːx]. Is this or all word-initial vowels being lengthened more natural?
Well, firstly, if it's just allophonic, it's not a distinction. Your phrasing tripped me up there. You can just say "allophonic word-initial lengthening".
[+1]
Porphyrogenitos wrote: 08 Oct 2018 01:46 I'm not personally sure how natural or plausible those conditions are, maybe someone else can comment on that, but it doesn't sound beyond the pale, certainly.
Having vowels lengthen in monosyllabic words, at least when those single syllables are open, isn't weird at all.

If you have (or, I suppose, had historically) initial stress, then lengthening vowels in initial syllables definitely makes sense. Otherwise, I'm not sure.
Here's Dhoan's stress rule: Stress is on the first syllable beginning with a fricative, an affricate, a trill, or a geminated consonant. If no such syllables exist, stress falls on the antepenult.

Thus, logically speaking, all single-syllable words were stressed historically. However, I'm no longer sure about this process due to the introduction of characters to represent doubled vowels as both processes have very similar results. For example, the Empire's home galaxy of gje-ätyn ([gʎɛ̠ ɑ̟.ɑ̟ˈθʊ̃]). I've instituted use of the proper article gje because the local script is Romanized in lower case. Does gle-ayra [ɑ̟.ʊˈrɑ̟] gje-nimbasa [nɪ̃.bɑ̟ˈsɑ̟] II or gle-ayra nimbasa II-gje sound more natural?
Last edited by yangfiretiger121 on 08 Oct 2018 17:51, edited 2 times in total.
Alien conlangs (Font may be needed for Vai symbols)
felipesnark
sinic
sinic
Posts: 413
Joined: 27 Jan 2013 02:12
Contact:

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by felipesnark »

What are some sources from which to derive a comparative particle or conjunction, like English “than”?
Visit my website for my blogs and information on my conlangs: http://grwilliams.net/ It's a work in progress!
User avatar
gestaltist
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1617
Joined: 11 Feb 2015 11:23

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by gestaltist »

felipesnark wrote: 08 Oct 2018 17:06 What are some sources from which to derive a comparative particle or conjunction, like English “than”?
If you're asking about possible morphemes that could receive that meaning, a frequent one is "as, like". Also, if you have suppletive comparative forms for a very common adjective (something like "lower", "lesser" and the like), they could be repurposed.
felipesnark
sinic
sinic
Posts: 413
Joined: 27 Jan 2013 02:12
Contact:

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by felipesnark »

gestaltist wrote: 08 Oct 2018 17:38
felipesnark wrote: 08 Oct 2018 17:06 What are some sources from which to derive a comparative particle or conjunction, like English “than”?
If you're asking about possible morphemes that could receive that meaning, a frequent one is "as, like". Also, if you have suppletive comparative forms for a very common adjective (something like "lower", "lesser" and the like), they could be repurposed.
Yes, I’m looking for morphemes that could receive that meaning for comparatives/unequal comparisons.

What about words meaning “from” or “before” or some other adposition? I would imagine that use may use an atypical case?
Visit my website for my blogs and information on my conlangs: http://grwilliams.net/ It's a work in progress!
User avatar
gestaltist
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1617
Joined: 11 Feb 2015 11:23

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by gestaltist »

felipesnark wrote: 08 Oct 2018 17:53
gestaltist wrote: 08 Oct 2018 17:38
felipesnark wrote: 08 Oct 2018 17:06 What are some sources from which to derive a comparative particle or conjunction, like English “than”?
If you're asking about possible morphemes that could receive that meaning, a frequent one is "as, like". Also, if you have suppletive comparative forms for a very common adjective (something like "lower", "lesser" and the like), they could be repurposed.
Yes, I’m looking for morphemes that could receive that meaning for comparatives/unequal comparisons.

What about words meaning “from” or “before” or some other adposition? I would imagine that use may use an atypical case?
Well, Polish uses "from"+Genitive as one of the options, so it's definitely attested. I don't see why "before" couldn't serve the same role.
User avatar
cedh
MVP
MVP
Posts: 386
Joined: 07 Sep 2011 22:25
Location: Tübingen, Germany
Contact:

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by cedh »

Basically any adposition that describes a stative external location should work (definitely "above", "in front of", "against", or "beside"; depending on the underlying cognitive metaphors used in the language possibly even "under" or "behind"). If your language uses serial verb constructions or at least verb-verb compounding fairly often, you could also derive a comparative particle from a verb such as "exceed", "(sur-)pass", "defeat", or similar.
User avatar
CarsonDaConlanger
sinic
sinic
Posts: 238
Joined: 02 Nov 2017 20:55

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by CarsonDaConlanger »

If I'm making a syllabary that derives from an old semanto-phonetic script, should I make each symbol derive from a pre existing logogram? Every syllable probably doesn't exist as a monosyllabic word.
He/they bisexual weeb
User avatar
spanick
roman
roman
Posts: 1336
Joined: 11 May 2017 01:47
Location: California

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by spanick »

CarsonDaConlanger wrote: 10 Oct 2018 17:50 If I'm making a syllabary that derives from an old semanto-phonetic script, should I make each symbol derive from a pre existing logogram? Every syllable probably doesn't exist as a monosyllabic word.
I think you can use a logogram to represent a single syllable even if the logogram itself isn't monosyllabic. Maybe they use a logogram to represent a particular syllable because the the onset of the first syllable of the logogram is the same as what they needed. For instance, if I need syllable /be/ I might use the logogram for /bebi/ to represent that syllable.
User avatar
CarsonDaConlanger
sinic
sinic
Posts: 238
Joined: 02 Nov 2017 20:55

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by CarsonDaConlanger »

Cool, thanks! I want to make a system that only uses the syllabary but I want to have an explanation for where the symbols came from, and "they just decided to have a syllabary because why not." isn't as satisfying as "they had a logography, then started to use it as a syllabary instead."
He/they bisexual weeb
User avatar
spanick
roman
roman
Posts: 1336
Joined: 11 May 2017 01:47
Location: California

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by spanick »

CarsonDaConlanger wrote: 10 Oct 2018 20:41 Cool, thanks! I want to make a system that only uses the syllabary but I want to have an explanation for where the symbols came from, and "they just decided to have a syllabary because why not." isn't as satisfying as "they had a logography, then started to use it as a syllabary instead."
Yeah, I get that. I think the characters will come out looking for interesting that way too. IIRC, real world semanto-phonetic scripts work this way. I believe Cuneiform mostly used the rime to encode phonetic meaning and Hierglyphs used the (usually initial) consonants.
yangfiretiger121
sinic
sinic
Posts: 337
Joined: 17 Jun 2018 03:04

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

While Wikipedia notes that [ꞵ] "is diachronically unstable and [is] likely to shift to [v]" (brackets around "is" mine), it has no such note about [ɸ]. Is a pairing of [ɸ] (voiceless bilabial) and [v] (voiced labiodental fricatives) plausible?
Alien conlangs (Font may be needed for Vai symbols)
User avatar
spanick
roman
roman
Posts: 1336
Joined: 11 May 2017 01:47
Location: California

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by spanick »

yangfiretiger121 wrote: 11 Oct 2018 17:35 While Wikipedia notes that [ꞵ] "is diachronically unstable and [is] likely to shift to [v]" (brackets around "is" mine), it has no such note about [ɸ]. Is a pairing of [ɸ] (voiceless bilabial) and [v] (voiced labiodental fricatives) plausible?
Doubtful. /ɸ/ is just as unstable as /ꞵ/.
User avatar
Ahzoh
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4191
Joined: 20 Oct 2013 02:57
Location: Canada

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

Is it possible for words for gendered children types be derived from a generic, gender neutral term + a gendered plural ending, like:

wasa "child" > wasan "girls" / wasin "boys" > lexicalization, loss of singular form, and reanalysis > w(a)sana "girl" / w(a)sini "boy"
yana "sibling" > yanan "sisters" / yanin "brothers" > lexicalization, loss of singular form, and reanalysis > y(a)nana "sister" / y(a)nini "brother"

possibly wsana/wsini and ynana/ynini become collective nouns and as such would be plural by default but take endings to indicate the singulative.
Image Śād Warḫallun (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]
Locked