(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here [2010-2020]

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yangfiretiger121
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

I probably should have finished my conlang's vowel system first so I could include it in the post with the question. Thus, both the former (context) and current tonal vowel systems are below with the pre-nasalization phonetics and orthographies provided as all moraic sonorants are Romanized <ñ>. Perhaps, I should've asked about mixing tones and contours as well. Is mixing phonemic tone and contour, as in the third vowel system, plausible? Mind you, they may be the same thing, but the IPA chart's bottom right corner makes me think they're different. Also, Zekoslav nailed what I was after despite my atrocious wording, meaning my current phonemic tone system is—at the very least—plausible.

(Former)
Short vowels: /ɪ/, /ʊ/, /ɛ̠/, /œ̠/, and /ɑ̟/
Nasalizations: /V̀̃/ (grave and tilde; [Vm]; <Vm>), /V᷅̃/ ([Vɱ]; <Vm>), /V̂̃/ ([Vn̪]; <Vn>), /Ṽ/ ([Vn]; <Vn>), and /V̌̃/ ([Vŋ]; <Vnk~Vng>)
Long vowels: /ɪ́/, /ʊ́/, /ɛ̠́/, /œ̠́/, and /ɑ̟́/
Nasalizations: /V̏̃/ ([V́m]; <V́m>), /V̄̃/ ([V́ɱ]; <V́m>), /V᷈̃/ ([V́n̪]; <V́n>), /V́̃/ (acute and tilde; [V́n]; <V́n>), and /V᷄̃/ ([V́ŋ]; <V́nk~V́ng>)

(Current)
Short vowels: /ɪ/, /ʊ/, /ɛ̠/, /œ̠/, and /ɑ̟/
Nasalizations: /V̏̃/ ([Vm]; <Vm>), /V̀̃/ (grave and tilde; [Vɱ]; <Vm>), /V̄̃/ ([Vn̪]; <Vn>), /Ṽ/ ([Vn]; <Vn>), and /V́̃/ (acute and tilde; [Vŋ]; <Vnk~Vng>)
Long vowels: /ɪː/, /ʊː/, /ɛ̠ː/, /œ̠ː/, and /ɑ̟ː/
Nasalizations: /V̏̃ː/ ([Vːm]; <V̈m>), /V̀̃ː/ (grave and tilde; [Vːɱ]; <V̈m>), /V̄̃ː/ ([Vːn̪]; <V̈n>), /Ṽː/ ([Vːn]; <V̈n>), and /V́̃ː/ (acute and tilde; [Vːŋ]; <V̈nk~V̈ng>)

(Proposed)
Short vowels: /ɪ/, /ʊ/, /ɛ̠/, /œ̠/, and /ɑ̟/
Nasalizations: /V̀̃/ (grave and tilde; [Vm]; <Vm>), /V᷅̃/ ([Vɱ]; <Vm>), /V̂̃/ ([Vn̪]; <Vn>), /V̄̃/ ([Vn]; <Vn>), and /V́̃/ (acute and tilde; [Vŋ]; <Vnk~Vng>)
Long vowels: /ɪː/, /ʊː/, /ɛ̠ː/, /œ̠ː/, and /ɑ̟ː/
Nasalizations: /V̀̃ː/ (grave and tilde; [Vːm]; <V̈m>), /V᷅̃ː/ ([Vːɱ]; <V̈m>), /V̂̃ː/ ([Vːn̪]; <V̈n>), /V̄̃ː/ ([Vːn]; <V̈n>), and /V́̃ː/ (acute and tilde; [Vːŋ]; <V̈nk~V̈ng>)

Could the voiceless lateral fricative descend from <ss> (cf. Aqtamiss [ɑ̟tˈtɑ̟.mɪɬ]) as well as <lt> and <ls>? Could the voiced lateral fricative descend from <sz> (cf. Szen [ɮɛ̠̃]) as well as <ld> and <lz>?
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yangfiretiger121
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

My conlang derives the names concept-based deities, such as those for temperance and benevolence, directly from the associated word. For example, kypy [xʊ.fʊ], meaning temperance,becomes Kwÿpy [ˈkʷʊː.fʊ] via labiovelarization and compensatory lengthening. However, ïnta [ˈɪ̄̃ː.θɑ̟], meaning benevolence, can become either Wïnta [ˈjɪ̄̃ː.θɑ̟], through epenthesis, or Wïnta [ˈwɪ̄̃ː.θɑ̟], if [j] → [w] affects the epenthetic [j]. Please note that it's spelled <w> in either case because [j] would become an allophone of [w], if unaffected. Is it natural for all instances of [j], including those by epenthesis, to become [w]? If I remember correctly, I was advised that "glides behave erratically" when I asked a similar question a few pages ago. However, I'm not this [j] constitutes a glide, as it's a softened [d͡ʒ] to distinguish it from [ȡ͡ʑ].
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 »

yangfiretiger121 wrote: 26 Nov 2018 17:16 My conlang derives the names concept-based deities, such as those for temperance and benevolence, directly from the associated word. For example, kypy [xʊ.fʊ], meaning temperance,becomes Kwÿpy [ˈkʷʊː.fʊ] via labiovelarization and compensatory lengthening. However, ïnta [ˈɪ̄̃ː.θɑ̟], meaning benevolence, can become either Wïnta [ˈjɪ̄̃ː.θɑ̟], through epenthesis, or Wïnta [ˈwɪ̄̃ː.θɑ̟], if [j] → [w] affects the epenthetic [j]. Please note that it's spelled <w> in either case because [j] would become an allophone of [w], if unaffected. Is it natural for all instances of [j], including those by epenthesis, to become [w]? If I remember correctly, I was advised that "glides behave erratically" when I asked a similar question a few pages ago. However, I'm not this [j] constitutes a glide, as it's a softened [d͡ʒ] to distinguish it from [ȡ͡ʑ].
*w > /j/ is thought to have happened word-initially between Proto-Semitic and Hebrew.
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But it never gets any more true,
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

Okay. Thanks. On a side note, what's the proper terminology for the /ʊ/ (/xʊ.fʊ/) → /ʊː/ (/ˈkʷʊː.fʊ/) since it's not, technically, compensating for anything? By the way, they same process happens to the other vowels as well, whether it accompanies a [w] or a [j]. Ïñta's /ɪ̄̃ː/ just happens to be long in the first place.
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Ahzoh
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

It seems like stress-based vowel lengthening.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

Even though stress in designed to fall on the first of a syllable containing a long vowel or the syllable with the antepenult metric mora while falling completely from single-syllable words? Granted, I should have illustrated this in my last post.

yxwañ "Cadet" (PFC-equivalent military rank) = y—xwa•ng (stressed light, heavy) = /ˈʊ.xʷɑ̟́̃/ (acute and tilde)
Äñ (public name) = a•a•ng (super heavy) = /ɑ̟́̃ː/ (acute and tilde)
kypy "temperance" = ky—py (light, light) = /xʊ.fʊ/
Kwÿpy "Archon Prime of temperance and restraint" = kwy•y—py (stressed heavy, light) = /ˈkʷʊː.fʊ/
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by FreeZzze »

I have a conlang with the following vowel system

i ɨ u
e ə o
a

Vowels harmony in such a way that words either contain:

i ɨ
e ə
a

or

ɨ u
ə o
a

There are no separate semivowel /j, w/ in the language though there is the onset only consonant /ʋ/. However /i, ɨ, u/ have non-syllabic allophones. Would /ɨ / be likely to merge with a non-syllabic /i/ [j]? Or would it be more likely to become like [ɰ]. In the last case this would yield a distinction between [ɰ], [w] and [ʋ] in the onset. It does not seem to be a very stable distinction but is it impossible?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by DesEsseintes »

FreeZzze wrote: 28 Nov 2018 13:49 I have a conlang with the following vowel system
In the last case this would yield a distinction between [ɰ], [w] and [ʋ] in the onset. It does not seem to be a very stable distinction but is it impossible?
Ashéninka apparently distinguishes /w wʲ j ɰ/ so I think you’re fine. Approximants are cool, so I’d say go for it.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

While I know that having multiple transcriptions for the same realization is common (cf. English's *(t)ch → /tʃ/), is having the character for [j~ɥ] yield [w] and/or [wʲ~ɰᶣ] as well plausible?
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Dormouse559
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 »

You're asking about orthography, and orthography is inherently arbitrary. Most quirks you can conceive of for a language's in-world script are plausible if justified by history or influence from other orthographic traditions.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

I need suggestions for fricatives and/or approximants that might compliment this sound inventory (or at least not look out of place):

/m n nˡ ŋ ŋᶫ/
/p b t d tˡ dˡ k g kᶫ gᶫ/
/l ʟ/

I suppose I can always fall back on /f s x w j/, but I've done that for most/all of my conlangs and I'm looking for something perhaps more interesting that I've not considered before.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar »

Ahzoh wrote: 28 Nov 2018 22:37 I need suggestions for fricatives and/or approximants that might compliment this sound inventory (or at least not look out of place):

/m n nˡ ŋ ŋᶫ/
/p b t d tˡ dˡ k g kᶫ gᶫ/
/l ʟ/
/(f) s x~h/
/ɬ (ʟ̝̊)/

Maybe?
Edit: Just saw the "and/or approximants" part. What's the language's vowel system like?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

Haven't come up with that yet since vowel systems are difficult for me to come up with that aren't some variation of Latin or /a e i o u/

Maybe?:
/e ʊ/
/æ ɔ/

Maybe include /æ ɐ̞ ɑ/
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar »

Ahzoh wrote: 28 Nov 2018 22:45 Haven't come up with that yet since vowel systems are difficult for me to come up with that aren't some variation of Latin or /a e i o u/

Maybe?:
/e ʊ/
/æ ɔ/
That's fair. I asked because if you were planning on having /y/ or /ɯ/, I would have suggested adding /ɥ/ or /ɰ/ to the consonant inventory, since you mentioned wanting to have more than just /j w/.

Looks good to me.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

shimobaatar wrote: 28 Nov 2018 22:52
Ahzoh wrote: 28 Nov 2018 22:45 Haven't come up with that yet since vowel systems are difficult for me to come up with that aren't some variation of Latin or /a e i o u/

Maybe?:
/e ʊ/
/æ ɔ/
That's fair. I asked because if you were planning on having /y/ or /ɯ/, I would have suggested adding /ɥ/ or /ɰ/ to the consonant inventory, since you mentioned wanting to have more than just /j w/.

Looks good to me.
I'm thinking:
/m n nˡ ŋ ŋᶫ/
/p b t d tˡ dˡ k g kᶫ gᶫ/
/s ɬ~l x ʟ̝̊~ʟ/
/e ʊ/
/æ ɔ/
with vowel harmony/lateral harmony

With a name like /sæ.(w)ʊm dˡɔgᶫ/
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

The following arrangement, if plausible, uses *ɥ (placeholder) as its orthography and comes from an oft-deteriorated [ɥ]: [j] (before [ɪ] and [ɛ̠]) being in complimentary distribution with [w] (before [ʊ] and [œ̠]) and [ɥ] being their allophone before [ɑ̟]. Is it plausible?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 »

Ahzoh wrote: 28 Nov 2018 22:37 I need suggestions for fricatives and/or approximants that might compliment this sound inventory (or at least not look out of place):

/m n nˡ ŋ ŋᶫ/
/p b t d tˡ dˡ k g kᶫ gᶫ/
/l ʟ/

I suppose I can always fall back on /f s x w j/, but I've done that for most/all of my conlangs and I'm looking for something perhaps more interesting that I've not considered before.
Hmmmm... /s/ and /h/ seem reasonable enough, and you could always have /sˡ/ (I seem to recall that some of the South Arabian languages have fricatives with lateral release). I would have said /xᶫ/ as well, but I get the feeling this might slide into /ʟ̝̊/ pretty quickly, and I'm not sure how likely it is that that would be the only voiceless lateral (similarly, a voiced counterpart might fall in with /ʟ/ fairly quickly). /zˡ/, though, wouldn't seem too out of place. /f/ you could probably take or leave.

One thing you could do is go down the route of Turkmen. Start out with /s z sˡ zˡ x ɣ xˡ ɣˡ/ then shift them all forward resulting in /θ ð θˡ ðˡ ʃ ʒ ʃˡ ʒˡ/, with /ʃˡ ʒˡ/ shifting further to /ɬ ɮ/. That would give you /θ ð θˡ ðˡ ʃ ʒ ɬ ɮ/ to work with, and then original /h/ could appear variously as [h] or [x] depending on context.

As for approximants, well, you could have /v/ in place of /w/ if you don't want to have an /f/ and think /w/ is too common in you're conlangs, and if you have /ʒ ɮ/ > /j l/ then you mess around with the voicing moving backwards through the mouth, i.e.:

Code: Select all

/  θ θˡ ʃ ɬ h/
/v ð ðˡ      /
which is the sort of thing I always find pretty cool while remaining particular "naturalistic", and it means that, for example, if you might have started out with some alternation like voicing then you end up with alternations like /ʃ/ ~ /j/, or /kᶫ/ ~ /ɬ/ if the alternation was originally one of frication, but that's an afterthought.

So I'd go with:

/m n nˡ ŋ ŋᶫ/
/p b t d tˡ dˡ k g kᶫ gᶫ/
/l ʟ/
/θ θˡ ʃ ɬ h/
/v ð ðˡ/
/j/
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

sangi39 wrote: 29 Nov 2018 00:50 /m n nˡ ŋ ŋᶫ/
/p b t d tˡ dˡ k g kᶫ gᶫ/
/l ʟ/
/θ θˡ ʃ ɬ h/
/v ð ðˡ/
/j/
Hmm, I really like that.
Though I ended up with:

/m n nˡ ŋ ŋᶫ/
/p b t d tˡ dˡ k g kᶫ gᶫ/
/s ɬ~l x ʟ̝̊~ʟ/

Is there a phonetic difference between /sˡ/ and /ɬ/? I intend that /tˡ/ is simply the stop equivalent of /ɬ/ and not simply starting as /t/ and briefly ending as /l/. Likewise for the voiced counterpart.

I also decided the language would be related to Swto and I think this inventory either with what i have or what you've suggested would be a good match up in terms of phonology.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

Prestopping of resonants is my favourite phonetic feature ATM.
What languages have them?
In which contexts they have appeared diachronically?
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

Considering the vast distances involved in space travel, does the original Creole (Andwomedan) evolving into a sprachbund in which all current languages are related to that language's generative dialect (Batïkïþy [vɑ̟ˈtɪː.kɪː.ɬʊ]*) in some way make sense at all? For example, one dialect may have [ɪː] → [i̠] and [ɛ̠ː] → [e̠] while another may have [ɬ] → [ꞎ] and/or [ɮ] → [ɭ˔].

*Placeholder because I still need to work on the declensions.

In my conlang [s͟x] and [x͟s] are meant to be allophnes of the same phoneme. Is reusing [ɧ] or using a non-IPA symbol, either with explanation—obviously, a better option?
Last edited by yangfiretiger121 on 01 Dec 2018 14:46, edited 1 time in total.
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